Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

Ruger NMV problem


Captain Bill Burt
 Share

Recommended Posts

About six months ago I bought the Iron Cowboy a set of Ruger NMV that had an action job from a fairly well known gunsmith (retired).  He shall go unnamed as that isn't the point of this post.  The round count on the Vaqueros was reported to be very low and the guns were spotless.  I have no reason to doubt the round count.

 

For the first several months they shot fine, until the Southeast Regional.  Of course if a gun(s) going to break it will be at the worst time.  In this case it was the first stage of the match.  Both guns stopped popping primers.  It wasn't the primers because I was shooting the same ammo and had zero problems. 

 

I took a close look at the guns and I noticed two things. 

 

One, the firing pin was only coming about half as far out of the frame as the firing pins on my NMVs and Sharyn's Single Sixes.   My first thought was the spring is to light. 

 

Two, I also noticed that when you pull the trigger and the hammer falls, it doesn't quite fall all the way.  There's a slight gap between the frame and the hammer.  Once you take your finger off the trigger and let it reset, the hammer comes down all the way. 

 

I took the hammer spring out of one of the revolvers and replaced it with the stock spring (very heavy and not suitable for competition).  Both problems went away.  When fired the firing pin now protrudes all the way through as it should, and the hammer falls all the way.

 

My question is, could it be as simple as needing a slightly heavier spring?  Or is something else going on that the heavier spring is able to overcome?  My preference would be to leave light springs in and fix whatever the other issue might be.

 

My final question is, why now?  They worked fine for a while.

EC09DD59-A5D8-4D2B-B41D-4570061AF807.jpeg

15E0D521-A996-461F-BB11-6D4F41032215.jpeg

Edited by Captain Bill Burt
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I had one of my single sixes do the same thing.  I put a washer under the spring to add a bit more compression, and the firing pin went back to protruding all the way and everything went bang.   I think I was just a hair too light with trimming the original spring.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

In my experience springs will take a set after being compressed awhile.

 

That is probably why the guns stopped setting off your rounds.

 

The gap between the frame and hammer is transfer bar pinch.

Common on most New Vaqueros.

Ruger doesn’t do any fitting in the transfer bars.

 

It won’t cause miss fires but can cause the trigger pull to feel glitchy on reset.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Yes.

Ok, was going to follow up with something similar to what Cayuse Jack posted.

 

I'd take an extra look and make sure those transfer bars are good and smooth, as well as putting a thin washer under the light springs.

 

It's also possible that some junk got in with the firing pin return spring or it wasn't lightened enough(or at all) with the action job. If that's too strong or dirty it can cause issues too.

 

 

 

 

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think someone should polish those hammers! Yikes! all brushed and everything...

And maybe do a little tweaking of the whole spring/t Bar thing for ya.

Funny that it happened to both at the same time. How clean/dirty are they?

Maybe some gook in the innards... 

Maybe a set of Wolff or Power springs are in order to get the tune right (17, 18, 19 lb...)

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Correct.  But, I took the cylinders out and looked them over, put them back in and had him try the guns out on the next stage.  The problems continued. I don't think it was the base pins not being in right. The firing pins are only coming out of the frame about half as far as mine and Sharyn's do, until I put the heavier spring in.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When two things are working perfectly and then both quit simultaneously the chances of that happening are very low.  Something changed.  Did you get the cylinders reversed?  Did someone else take the guns apart?  Gun makers often put in heavy springs to overcome poor fitting parts and to make sure the guns will fire.  The solution is not to put in heavier springs if the guns were working OK.  The solution is to do a little investigation, find the problem and fix the problem.  There are only five parts in the Vaquero operating system.  The hammer, the pawl, the transfer bar, the bolt and the trigger.  It is not rocket science to fix one.  It just takes some careful inspection looking for the problem(s).

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If both did it at the same  time I would suspect the base pins pushed in too far.   Or possibly you got the base pins or cylinders switched. 

Edited by Jack Spade
added comment
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Temperature. It was pretty cool in the mornings at the S.E. Regional.  Were the guns (springs) colder than they were when they worked well?  Those gun springs may be tuned so close to the edge that when the temperature drops, they loose a little tension, resulting in light strikes.  When I got a TPMS for the camper, I was amazed at how much temperature affects the pressure in the trailer tires.  It has the same affect on metal. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

When two things are working perfectly and then both quit simultaneously the chances of that happening are very low.  Something changed.  Did you get the cylinders reversed?  Did someone else take the guns apart?  Gun makers often put in heavy springs to overcome poor fitting parts and to make sure the guns will fire.  The solution is not to put in heavier springs if the guns were working OK.  The solution is to do a little investigation, find the problem and fix the problem.  There are only five parts in the Vaquero operating system.  The hammer, the pawl, the transfer bar, the bolt and the trigger.  It is not rocket science to fix one.  It just takes some careful inspection looking for the problem(s).

I was hoping you would show up.  It may not be rocket science, but don't underestimate my ability to take something apart and not be able to get it back together.  I'm very good at that.  Nobody else took the guns apart.  I only put in the heavier spring to see if it would fix the problem, which it did.  I don't want that as a long term solution unless I conclude that the current springs are going to function reliably.

 

I think you're exactly right, the solution is to do a little investigation, or in my case, ask people who know more than I do, which is why I started this thread.

15 minutes ago, Jack Spade said:

If both did it at the same  time I would suspect the base pins pushed in too far.   Or possibly you got the base pins or cylinders switched. 

I don't see how the base pins could be a part of the problem.  The gun still won't fire reliably and I know the base pin is in correctly because I checked it.  It's not the cylinders being reversed for two reasons.  One, I never take both guns of a pair apart at the same time for that exact reason, and two, when it happened I was worried I had a brain fart and did that, so I checked the cylinder faces and the serial numbers are right. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Badlands Bob #61228 said:

Temperature. It was pretty cool in the mornings at the S.E. Regional.  Were the guns (springs) colder than they were when they worked well?  Those gun springs may be tuned so close to the edge that when the temperature drops, they loose a little tension, resulting in light strikes.  When I got a TPMS for the camper, I was amazed at how much temperature affects the pressure in the trailer tires.  It has the same affect on metal. 

That was our first match of the year to have to wear jackets.  I don't know.  They do seem pretty tuned.  If I take everything apart and nothing is screwed up I have to ask myself why those firing pins don't protrude nearly as far out of the frame as our other Rugers do. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I’m not saying something couldn’t be fit better, but to me it sure sounds like a spring problem. It sounds like the springs were pretty close to being too short to begin with and then with some use they took a “set” . Coil springs should really never be “clipped” or cut shorter if you want reliability. The springs should be the same oal as a factory spring and just be a smaller wire diameter to achieve the lighter tension. Like a 1911 recoil spring for a lighter than standard load . 
Your springs probably just don’t have much left in them at

the end of their stroke . 
compare the oal of your factory to the lighter ones 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The wildcard in your issue is that they worked for awhile in tuned form, then suddenly quit.  However I saw on one new pair of NMV when lightened springs were installed that your exact issues started happening. Heavier springs, or stock springs, seemed to fix it.  However it was just that heavier springs (slightly lighter than stock still worked) overcame the mechanical issue internally. What exact parts that was I don’t know, as the guns were sent off to a professional smith in the offseason to fix the machining/poor fit of certain parts. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

OP, have you tried the hammer springs from your other NMV that haven't given you any issues?

In the 2 that are now giving FTF. Place 1 or 2, #10AN washers at the bottom of the hammer spring.

When was the last time you deep cleaned/flushed the insides out?

OLG 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

52 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

That was our first match of the year to have to wear jackets.  I don't know.  They do seem pretty tuned.  If I take everything apart and nothing is screwed up I have to ask myself why those firing pins don't protrude nearly as far out of the frame as our other Rugers do. 

Is there a trigger stop?

OLG 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

47 minutes ago, Buckshot Bob said:

I’m not saying something couldn’t be fit better, but to me it sure sounds like a spring problem. It sounds like the springs were pretty close to being too short to begin with and then with some use they took a “set” . Coil springs should really never be “clipped” or cut shorter if you want reliability. The springs should be the same oal as a factory spring and just be a smaller wire diameter to achieve the lighter tension. Like a 1911 recoil spring for a lighter than standard load . 
Your springs probably just don’t have much left in them at

the end of their stroke . 
compare the oal of your factory to the lighter ones 

The lighter springs are longer than the factory ones by about one ring, and appear to be thinner 

29 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

OP, have you tried the hammer springs from your other NMV that haven't given you any issues?

In the 2 that are now giving FTF. Place 1 or 2, #10AN washers at the bottom of the hammer spring.

When was the last time you deep cleaned/flushed the insides out?

OLG 

No, but my wife's are Single Sixes, so not really comparable, and mine are Jimmy Spurs, so again not really comparable. 

26 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Is there a trigger stop?

OLG 

I'm not sure.  What would it look like?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

The lighter springs are longer than the factory ones by about one ring, and appear to be thinner 

No, but my wife's are Single Sixes, so not really comparable, and mine are Jimmy Spurs, so again not really comparable. 

I'm not sure.  What would it look like?

If you’re willing to try it take one of the springs and give it a stretch . Try to do it evenly so the spacing between the coils stays the same . Then re install and see if your problems go away. If they do it’s still not fixed because the spring will just take a set again. But at least you’ll know 

I also like Lumpys suggestion about using some springs out of another of your competition guns unless there is some different set up being used 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If the base pins are pushed in too far they stop the travel of the hammer.  This would cause the hammer to be back just a little and the firing pin to not strike the primer hard enough.  There is a reason they make belt mountain base pins.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

59 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Obviously my chicken feet worked.

 

No chance he'd ridden the hammer down, is there?

No, I watched him shoot them slowly and get ftf.

51 minutes ago, Buckshot Bob said:

If you’re willing to try it take one of the springs and give it a stretch . Try to do it evenly so the spacing between the coils stays the same . Then re install and see if your problems go away. If they do it’s still not fixed because the spring will just take a set again. But at least you’ll know 

I also like Lumpys suggestion about using some springs out of another of your competition guns unless there is some different set up being used 

I'm not willing to stretch anything just yet.  I'll take my time and investigate, probably take one of them down later tonight. 

26 minutes ago, Jack Spade said:

If the base pins are pushed in too far they stop the travel of the hammer.  This would cause the hammer to be back just a little and the firing pin to not strike the primer hard enough.  There is a reason they make belt mountain base pins.

Yeah, I had that happen to me back when I was getting started.  Our pistols have increased power base pin springs and I check to make sure they're in and latched. 

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

58 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

The lighter springs are longer than the factory ones by about one ring, and appear to be thinner 

No, but my wife's are Single Sixes, so not really comparable, and mine are Jimmy Spurs, so again not really comparable. 

I'm not sure.  What would it look like?

Longer spring means nut'n if it doesn't have the 'smack' needed.

Order new hammer springs from Wolff Gunsprings and flush out the insides with brake/carb cleaner.

I now don't believe you have a trigger stop to deal with.

You do have weakened hammer springs, that need to be skimmed with the AN washers I told you about or replaced altogether. 

Respectfully, 

OLG 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

 

You do have weakened hammer springs, that need to be skimmed with the AN washers I told you about or replaced altogether. 

Respectfully, 

OLG 

Could you post a link or a picture of exactly where this washer goes on the spring?

 

I need to increase the hammer strength on a pair of NMVs to ensure that is what my problem is.  I can get a couple of washers faster than I can get new springs.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a question from reading some of the replies here. Sorry to interrupt on your thread Captain Bill Burt.

Anyway , how could a base pin be in too far and interfere with the hammer if it is latched in place, same as it has always been in the past ??

Curious , Rex :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Chief Rick said:

Could you post a link or a picture of exactly where this washer goes on the spring?

 

I need to increase the hammer strength on a pair of NMVs to ensure that is what my problem is.  I can get a couple of washers faster than I can get new springs.

Pic post'n is above my skillz.

Put the washer at the bottom of the hammer spring.

Use the thicker #10 AN washers. 

OLG 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.