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What's the Call?


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7 minutes ago, Whiskey Hayes #41999 said:

Branch

 

Your hypothetical isn't the same as OP.  Poor stage design is out of the shooter's control.  Big shooter small TO is out of shooter's control.  Shooter has control over shooting guns in the correct order.  Shooting rifle last can/does create timer issues.   Both calls require looking at what the shooter has control over and what he doesn't.

 

Whiskey

 

When describing how a reshoot can be offered in an instance where the timer fails to record the time, where does it state that the decision is based on what is in the shooter's control?

 

Further, how is it under the shooters control whether or not the timer actually picks up the last shot, regardless of what gun it's fired out of?

 

If it is based on that decision, then what time is recorded?

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Just now, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

When describing how a reshoot can be offered in an instance where the timer fails to record the time, where does it state that the decision is based on what is in the shooter's control?

 

Further, how is it under the shooters control whether or not the timer actually picks up the last shot, regardless of what gun it's fired out of?

 

If it is based on that decision, then what time is recorded?

Exactly.  Control means to influence, or direct something.  I don't agree with an argument that the shooter deliberately shot the rifle last, picking up a P, so the timer wouldn't pick up the last shot, thereby giving him a reshoot and eliminating the P he pick up on purpose, so he could avoid the P via reshoot.  It gets pretty circular in there.

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However, if there is a range failure (props, timer, RO’s) that is beyond the competitor’s control, a reshoot may be granted.

 

Branch, this is what you posted.  A failure that is beyond the shooter's control.  By shooting the rifle last did the shooter influence the timer?

 

Something nobody has brought up is benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter.  Nobody really knows why the timer failed in the OP regardless of what the shooter did.  I would have given a reshoot.  Hope I didn't increase your indigestion.

 

Whiskey

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Howdy Whiskey.

I think the reason nobody brought up "benefit of the doubt" is because there wasn't any doubt

as part of the OP and what happened.

FACTS:  shooter shot rifle out of order.    Timer didn't pick up last shot(s).  Shooter given a Reshoot.

Potential 'P' erased.

 

I didn't see any 'doubt' about the outcome.    It looks like the home club handled the situation

correctly by giving the Reshoot and erasing the 'P'.

 

I plan to be at TN State this year.   May not shoot well or fast, but I plan to enjoy the festivities

that the Wartrace Regulators put on.

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

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Just now, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Howdy Whiskey.

I think the reason nobody brought up "benefit of the doubt" is because there wasn't any doubt

as part of the OP and what happened.

FACTS:  shooter shot rifle out of order.    Timer didn't pick up last shot(s).  Shooter given a Reshoot.

Potential 'P' erased.

 

I didn't see any 'doubt' about the outcome.    It looks like the home club handled the situation

correctly by giving the Reshoot and erasing the 'P'.

 

I plan to be at TN State this year.   May not shoot well or fast, but I plan to enjoy the festivities

that the Wartrace Regulators put on.

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

I look forward to seeing both of you there!

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Widder,Capt Bill,Branch

 

Looking forward to seeing all of you guys at TN State.  Widder just seemed to be some doubt in some the threads if the correct call was made.  Just thought I would point out how the rule could be misinterpreted and how the misinterpretation could be resolved.  I had to eat a very late lunch here at desk and I've run out of time to drag it out any further.  Dang got mustard on my keyboard.

 

Whiskey

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40 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

So....let's ask this question another way...

 

Different shooter...

 

Shooter shoots rifle, shotgun, pistol... They get a a P on the rifle, shotgun goes just fine, shoots the pistols and leans way out through the small window where the pistols are to be shot from. He's got long arms and leaning way out there...TO isn't able to get the timer close because of the small window and how far the shooter is leaning out there. The TO is holding it out there as well as he can, watching the screen, and it doesn't pick up the last several shots...

 

What would you do, and how is it different from the OP's scenario?

In this instance, reshoot... TO failure.  Still, in the OP, as the CRO, the TO needs to decide if shooting rifle last was brain fade, or deliberate attempt gain competitive advantage.  TO does this by asking questions.  If the answer is brain fade, offer the reshoot, or shooter takes time recorded & P.  If shooter sez, "...it's quicker with rifle last", use time recorded + 30 seconds for SOTG penalty.  Shooter gets belligerent over that call... THEN offer the MDQ for unsportsmanlike conduct!    Next shooter!

 

A reshoot is not necessarily a given remedy, except in the case where the timer dies, battery falls out, stops recording.  Some application of the RO3 Manual needs to be. applied!  The shooter in the OP could just as well said, I'll keep my score (including the P).  I've known shooters that avoid reshoots like the plague!  I've witnessed more than one train wreck during a reshoot!

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4 minutes ago, Griff said:

In this instance, reshoot... TO failure.  Still, in the OP, as the CRO, the TO needs to decide if shooting rifle last was brain fade, or deliberate attempt gain competitive advantage.  TO does this by asking questions.  If the answer is brain fade, offer the reshoot, or shooter takes time recorded & P.  If shooter sez, "...it's quicker with rifle last", use time recorded + 30 seconds for SOTG penalty.  Shooter gets belligerent over that call... THEN offer the MDQ for unsportsmanlike conduct!    Next shooter!

 

A reshoot is not necessarily a given remedy, except in the case where the timer dies, battery falls out, stops recording.  Some application of the RO3 Manual needs to be. applied!  The shooter in the OP could just as well said, I'll keep my score (including the P).  I've known shooters that avoid reshoots like the plague!  I've witnessed more than one train wreck during a reshoot!

Von and I were on the posse where it happened and if I remember correctly his reshoot time was slower than the original time.

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So, @Griff, how many of the last rounds fired not being picked up by the timer are acceptable to still be recorded as the shooter's time? Only if the timer didn't pick up the last shot? What about if it didn't pick up the last two shots? Three? What if the TO in the OP knew that the timer didn't pick up any of the rifle shots?

 

Also...Is it always true that the shooter has the option to take the partial, recorded score any time the timer does not pick up the last shot, or only in special cases?

 

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

 

The Procedural is obvious, but what about the last round(s) not recorded?  Seems like a 'P' AND 

 reshoot to me with 'P'  carried forward.   

The unrecorded round might not be inconsequential.  What if the last unrecorded round had been jacked out and had to be reloaded.  You cannot ignore the lost time, unless it is due to a T.O. error,  and even then you still don't have a valid time, unless re-shot.  But the P stands.  

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale
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RESHOOT (for reasons cited by Branchwater Jack).

The "P" does NOT carry over - REF: Reshoot rules SHB pp. 20 & 44.

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

The Procedural is obvious, but what about the last round(s) not recorded?  You don't have a valid stage time.  I would charge the 'P', carry it forward,  AND require shooter to reshoot. 

After all, the last round time might not always be inconsequential.  What if shooter jacked out the last round and had to reload? 

You cannot just ignore the lost time, even if due to a TO error. 

But the 'P' occurred due to shooter error and it seems like it has to stand.  What am I missing?

 

 

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale
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While the rules seem to favor the shooter in this case, had it have been me as the shooter, I would have insisted the"P" be applied.  My error so I would own it.

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

The Procedural is obvious, but what about the last round(s) not recorded?  You don't have a valid stage time.  I would charge the 'P', carry it forward,  AND require shooter to reshoot. 

After all, the last round time might not always be inconsequential.  What if shooter jacked out the last round and had to reload? 

You cannot just ignore the lost time, even if due to a TO error. 

But the 'P' has to stand. 

 

 

No, it does NOT.

 

Quote

On a reshoot, the competitor starts over clean, carrying only accrued safety penalties forward.

SHB p.20

 

Quote

Reshoot – score recorded, the competitor starts over clean, carrying accrued safety penalties. Both scores turned in.

SHB p.44

 

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
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17 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

But the 'P' occurred due to shooter error and it seems like it has to stand.  What am I missing?

 

 

I think about all Ps are because of shooter error.

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15 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

No, it does NOT.

 

SHB p.20

 

SHB p.44

 

 

 

16 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Both scores turned in.

I've never understood this aspect.  What is done with the earlier score and why is it kept?

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

 

I've never understood this aspect.  What is done with the earlier score and why is it kept?

 

In case there is a question regarding the reason for the reshoot.

At many major matches, any reshoot must be "signed off" by a match official.

If found to be unjustified, the original score is used.

 

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
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3 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

In case there is a question regarding the reason for the reshoot.

At many major matches, any reshoot must be "signed off" by a match official.

If found to be unjustified, the original score is used.

 

 

Helpful.  Thank you. 

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The shooter got lucky and got a reshoot because of an unrecorded time. At EOT, a shooter on my posse had a pretty decent run - no misses or penalties and the timer died during his run. Sucked to be that shooter when the timer died - he HAD to reshoot the stage because of unrecorded time. It’s the same in this case. The shooter HAD to reshoot to get a recordable time. Had the TO held the timer in such a way as to record the last shot (only one that matters in this case once we know it’s working), it would have been the Rita time and a P.  
 

I doubt very seriously that there was malicious intent on the part of the shooter or TO. 
 

and remember, if a reshoot is given the shooter has to take the new time… it doesn’t always work out well. 
 

Big hugs!

Scarlett

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34 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

...

and remember, if a reshoot is given the shooter has to take the new time… it doesn’t always work out well
 

Big hugs!

Scarlett

 

The only time I've been allowed a re-shoot (local match) I was so flustered and confused my re-shoot was such a dumpster fire I actually got a MDQ.  I'm glad it happened...as a mentor told me, "If you can learn from mistakes, you'll become a genius in your first year here."

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2 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

RESHOOT (for reasons cited by Branchwater Jack).

The "P" does NOT carry over - REF: Reshoot rules SHB pp. 20 & 44.

 

 

 

Thanks PaleWolf for your reply in this case the shooter got lucky and was saved buy the rule, Thanks again for clearing it up! V.D.

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Shooter gets a P for shooting rifle last.

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1 hour ago, Arizona Gunfighter said:

Shooter gets a P for shooting rifle last.

 

Ya need to read the previous post by everyone to understand why it isn't a 'P'.

 

..........Widder

 

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Why all the discussion about recording the last rifle shot?  Doesn’t matter. He shot guns out of order - end of story. Take the “P”. He earned it. No reshoot. 

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2 minutes ago, Too Tall Bob said:

Why all the discussion about recording the last rifle shot?  Doesn’t matter. He shot guns out of order - end of story. Take the “P”. He earned it. No reshoot. 

 

Question should be "Why all the discussion about a "P"? since it won't be carrying over on the RESHOOT.

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Where is Phantom??

 

Look, I see many of these discussions dependent on proper/good TO'ing.

AGAIN, I agree it is the shooter's responsibility.

OTOH, a "good" TO/RO can do a lot to help STOP these "WTC" discussions.

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18 minutes ago, Too Tall Bob said:

Why all the discussion about recording the last rifle shot?  Doesn’t matter. He shot guns out of order - end of story. Take the “P”. He earned it. No reshoot. 

 

Because some folks don't understand the RULES and therefore, want to administer the WRONG call!

 

..........Widder

 

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1 minute ago, Tennessee williams said:

1387952723_images(4).jpeg.f71d721e66f4476535d6a7a558258546.jpeg

Widder, you might want to try telling it to this.

 

Dear fence post,

 

Please never TO for me.

 

..........Widder

 

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