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Blazin' Kane

Spectator carry rules at events?

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When you go to a Doctor in Texas, do they not ask you not to bring your gun in? They don't want guns laying around when you take your clothes off. They just don't have the facilities for that.

 

I don't like being told what to do concerning my firearm any more than the next guy. I'm retired LEO, CCW, and carried a gun for 51 years. None of that matters to someone responsible for the safety of a match on a private range.

 

The simple answer is that a lot of effort is put forth to create a safe range environment. We spend way too much time policing the shooters (in my opinion), but the fact is, there are more than enough screw-ups  ("oh gee where did that live round come from?") as you clear/load your guns at the tables. We don't need to have wanna be Cowboys wandering around polluting the safe zone of the match. Yes, most of us can safe;y carry our guns loaded between stages without incident, but there is that .001%. 

Every one at the range has a drivers license, but don't you see an idiot or two driving on your way to the match?! They are out there!

 

SASS has an outstanding safety record. The last thing we need is a black eye so someone can use it to shut us down! They are everywhere!  So I recommend we put aside our insecurities of being unarmed (I fully understand how that feels) and just suck it up. It's the Cowboy way...

 

As you get started in SASS helping out on the shooting line, take a look around you. I assure you you'll see bullet holes where bullet holes aren't supposed to be. They are out there, everywhere!

 

As for potential threats from Antifa on a range, we all walk around with a bunch of ammo on our belts. We practice grabbing guns on the move, loading them and engaging targets in a matter of seconds,  There are staged/unloaded shotguns sitting around in gun carts everywhere. How long would it take for 80 shotgun loads to head up-range? Just saying.

 

What we do and how we shoot is highly prone for potential mishaps. It's amazing to me that more problems don't arise than they do. There are a lot of us old farts playing this game that just don't have what we used to physically and mentally (not as bad a Joe Biden though) and we can credit all the shooters on the range that are looking out for each other to make this happen. So lets not throw anything more at it than we need to.

 

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Because our range is a public range, spectators and non-shooters are not allowed to carry. The exception to this is on or off duty LEO or FD (but per city they must carry ID identifying themselves if not in uniform)

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8 hours ago, Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667 said:

My home club is a “cold range”.  Insurance requirements being what they are, I’d be surprised if a club allowed guests who are not participants in a match have a loaded firearm.

I'd be surprised at a range which allowed participants to have a loaded firearm off the line.

 

Most ranges are cold ranges. Most ranges that are not generally cold ranges are cold ranges when "the public" is invited to show up.

 

And that can be a difference... When "the public" shows up, the rules sometimes tighten a bit more, and only participants may carry cold. Because someone else already ruined it for the rest of us.

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7 hours ago, Blast Masterson said:

As for potential threats ... on a range, we all walk around with a bunch of ammo on our belts. We practice grabbing guns on the move, loading them and engaging targets in a matter of seconds,  There are staged/unloaded shotguns sitting around in gun carts everywhere. How long would it take for 80 shotgun loads to head up-range? Just saying.

Well said!

 

And in the case of being an unarmed spectator, I'm ducking for cover! That might be a good idea even if armed...

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15 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

This is, in my opinion, simply not true. 

 

I know quite a few people who are excellent shots, probably would be great in a gunfight, but their gun handling is not particularly safe.  

 

I'm certainly not saying thats true of you, but I am saying that just because you're very accurate with a gun, or can draw one really quickly, doesn't mean you're automatically safe.  Nor does SWAT training mean you're a safe shooter.  As Widder says, quite a few of us are better shots than 95% of LE.  No offense to LE, but that's not saying much.

 

Forgive me, but I doubt anyone cares about what Big Brother thinks about your competence given Big Brother is notoriously incompetent.  I have a pulse, I'm over 21, and I have a clean criminal record, so Big Brother says I can carry, whooptedo.

 

Around here, all the ranges are 'cold.'  It doesn't really matter what the SASS club might 'like' to do, if they want to continue to utilize the ranges they have to follow range rules.  As Rex said, it has nothing to do with the 2nd amendment and everything to do with safety.  I've never owned a range, but I suspect some of the rules are related to insurance requirements as well.  It's interesting to me that you have all this experience, but the concept of a cold range, and the fact that almost all shooting disciplines (if not all) don't allow loaded guns off the line is new to you.

 

Welcome to SASS it's great to know we're getting a highly skilled, SWAT trained, better than 95% of police, carries loaded guns, genuine bad a$$ kinda guy!

 

 

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Ah...the Wire...where anyone's simple question can get turned around and inside out within seconds...

 

Phantom

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

This is, in my opinion, simply not true. 

 

I know quite a few people who are excellent shots, probably would be great in a gunfight, but their gun handling is not particularly safe.  

 

I'm certainly not saying thats true of you, but I am saying that just because you're very accurate with a gun, or can draw one really quickly, doesn't mean you're automatically safe.  Nor does SWAT training mean you're a safe shooter.  As Widder says, quite a few of us are better shots than 95% of LE.  No offense to LE, but that's not saying much.

 

Forgive me, but I doubt anyone cares about what Big Brother thinks about your competence given Big Brother is notoriously incompetent.  I have a pulse, I'm over 21, and I have a clean criminal record, so Big Brother says I can carry, whooptedo.

 

Around here, all the ranges are 'cold.'  It doesn't really matter what the SASS club might 'like' to do, if they want to continue to utilize the ranges they have to follow range rules.  As Rex said, it has nothing to do with the 2nd amendment and everything to do with safety.  I've never owned a range, but I suspect some of the rules are related to insurance requirements as well.  It's interesting to me that you have all this experience, but the concept of a cold range, and the fact that almost all shooting disciplines (if not all) don't allow loaded guns off the line is new to you.

 

Welcome to SASS it's great to know we're getting a highly skilled, SWAT trained, better than 95% of police, carries loaded guns, genuine bad a$$ kinda guy!

 

 

Oh you...I see what you did there. You're teasing me right? Very crafty sir.

 

FWIW, I open carry to and from my local range, loaded. I take out my firearm, unload the protection rounds, shoot the target rounds, and replace when I'm done. Not sure where you're getting this "cold range" stuff from.

 

"An armed society is a polite society, unless you're at a sanctioned shooting event" - Captain Bill Burt

 

15 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

When you're a guest in someone's house. 

You abide by their rules, or leave. ;)

OLG

 

I could not agree with this more. 

Edited by Blazin' Kane

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Blast Masterson said:

When you go to a Doctor in Texas, do they not ask you not to bring your gun in? They don't want guns laying around when you take your clothes off. They just don't have the facilities for that.

 

I don't like being told what to do concerning my firearm any more than the next guy. I'm retired LEO, CCW, and carried a gun for 51 years. None of that matters to someone responsible for the safety of a match on a private range.

 

The simple answer is that a lot of effort is put forth to create a safe range environment. We spend way too much time policing the shooters (in my opinion), but the fact is, there are more than enough screw-ups  ("oh gee where did that live round come from?") as you clear/load your guns at the tables. We don't need to have wanna be Cowboys wandering around polluting the safe zone of the match. Yes, most of us can safe;y carry our guns loaded between stages without incident, but there is that .001%. 

Every one at the range has a drivers license, but don't you see an idiot or two driving on your way to the match?! They are out there!

 

SASS has an outstanding safety record. The last thing we need is a black eye so someone can use it to shut us down! They are everywhere!  So I recommend we put aside our insecurities of being unarmed (I fully understand how that feels) and just suck it up. It's the Cowboy way...

 

As you get started in SASS helping out on the shooting line, take a look around you. I assure you you'll see bullet holes where bullet holes aren't supposed to be. They are out there, everywhere!

 

As for potential threats from Antifa on a range, we all walk around with a bunch of ammo on our belts. We practice grabbing guns on the move, loading them and engaging targets in a matter of seconds,  There are staged/unloaded shotguns sitting around in gun carts everywhere. How long would it take for 80 shotgun loads to head up-range? Just saying.

 

What we do and how we shoot is highly prone for potential mishaps. It's amazing to me that more problems don't arise than they do. There are a lot of us old farts playing this game that just don't have what we used to physically and mentally (not as bad a Joe Biden though) and we can credit all the shooters on the range that are looking out for each other to make this happen. So lets not throw anything more at it than we need to.

 

 

So, case in point I suppose, but my PCP that I've gone to for the past five years loves my gun belt and six shooter and encourages me to carry it into the office when I get my bloodwork or whatever done. If I'm concealed when I go in the nurses tease me and ask where my guns are at that day. There is only one place in the city that requires me to hide my firearm, and that's HEB. Now there are two, HEB and SASS.

Jubel Reed in Midland TX btw, he's great.

Edited by Blazin' Kane

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6 hours ago, Blazin' Kane said:

 

Oh you...I see what you did there. You're teasing me right? Very crafty sir.

 

FWIW, I open carry to and from my local range, loaded. I take out my firearm, unload the protection rounds, shoot the target rounds, and replace when I'm done. Not sure where you're getting this "cold range" stuff from.

 

"An armed society is a polite society, unless you're at a sanctioned shooting event" - Captain Bill Burt

 

 

I could not agree with this more. 

Or on the Wire.

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On 8/10/2020 at 5:14 PM, Blazin' Kane said:

 

...but it is funny that I can carry in Walmart, but not at a shooting event. ...

 

Ya I always felt that was strange too.  We scream about infringement of our 2nd amendments rights but don't question infringement at shooting events?!?!? 

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The 2nd amendment (for that matter the entire Bill of Rights) addresses government/citizen interactions.  A private entity restricting people’s ability to carry on private property has exactly zero to do with the second amendment.
 

Nobody has a right to bear arms on someone else’s property. 
 

If you come on my property and start speechifying about Joe Biden for President, am I infringing on your free speech when I send you packing? No.

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1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

The 2nd amendment (for that matter the entire Bill of Rights) addresses government/citizen interactions.  A private entity restricting people’s ability to carry on private property has exactly zero to do with the second amendment.
 

Nobody has a right to bear arms on someone else’s property. 
 

If you come on my property and start speechifying about Joe Biden for President, am I infringing on your free speech when I send you packing? No.

 

I agree with you, but it's the spirit of the 2a. A pro 2a organization should not, in my opinion, be telling supporters to disarm. 

 

Nonetheless, I'm happy to comply.

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1 minute ago, Blazin' Kane said:

 

I agree with you, but it's the spirit of the 2a. A pro 2a organization should not, in my opinion, be telling supporters to disarm. 

 

Nonetheless, I'm happy to comply.

No offense, but you don't seem happy about it.  What surprises me is that with your experience you weren't aware of it.  What hot ranges have you shot at?  I've been shooting for almost 50 years and I've never shot at a hot range. 

 

Another thing that surprises me, and this is not directed at you, is that some shooters don't differentiate between a corporate big box store creating an anti 2nd amendment policy, and a group (or individual) of shooters starting a range and creating policies for safety and insurance reasons.  In the first case I generally attribute the policy to ignorance.  In the second case I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt and attribute it to necessity and/or safety. 

 

If the insurance companies say make it a cold range or we won't insure you, what are your options?  Unlimited liability?  Don't have a range?  Or have a cold range?

 

Ultimately this issue is only indirectly related to SASS.  Individual ranges make the decisions, rarely does the SASS club do so.

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3 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

No offense, but you don't seem happy about it.  What surprises me is that with your experience you weren't aware of it.  What hot ranges have you shot at?  I've been shooting for almost 50 years and I've never shot at a hot range. 

 

Another thing that surprises me, and this is not directed at you, is that some shooters don't differentiate between a corporate big box store creating an anti 2nd amendment policy, and a group (or individual) of shooters starting a range and creating policies for safety and insurance reasons.  In the first case I generally attribute the policy to ignorance.  In the second case I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt and attribute it to necessity and/or safety. 

 

If the insurance companies say make it a cold range or we won't insure you, what are your options?  Unlimited liability?  Don't have a range?  Or have a cold range?

 

Ultimately this issue is only indirectly related to SASS.  Individual ranges make the decisions, rarely does the SASS club do so.

 

One can disagree with something, but not be upset by it. I'm not upset, I just disagree. Its simple amigo.

 

I've never been asked to unload a carry weapon at any range I've been to from Fort Worth to Odessa. Generally, I shoot out in the desert, but when I go to a range its Family Armory in Midland, they're also the FFL dealer that I transfer to, and two of their workers are students of mine. They do not require me to disarm to or from the range area.

 

If the SASS or individual ranges are doing this because an insurance company is forcing them, then I understand. But this conversation isn't about carrying to and from the shooting area with a loaded firearm, its about me as a spectator not being allowed to carry for the normal reasons people carry for. 

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On ‎8‎/‎10‎/‎2020 at 1:57 PM, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

SASS spectators are usually "up close and personal", in other words, on the range or in the shooting bay.  SASS calls for a "cold range" except between loading and unloading tables.    You as a spectator will probably be handed firearms to shoot at the match.  Then at the unloading table, any firearm you have in possession has to be cleared and shown empty (oh-oh).

 

Short answer - leave your carry guns in your vehicle during the match.   Everyone else around you is probably doing the same.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

12 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Ah...the Wire...where anyone's simple question can get turned around and inside out within seconds...

 

Phantom

Hi Blazin' Kane,

 

You had your answer in the second post, GJ's. I hope the other answers didn't discourage you. I know most of them (at least here on the Wire). They meant well.

 

BTW, Welcome!

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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It has nothing to do 2A friendly, ability or respecting peoples carry rights.

It is a liability issue for range owners. Our liability insurance does not permit spectators carrying weapons on the range. Only registered competitors can carry weapons. These weapons have to be loaded and unloaded at the designated areas.

Hammer down on an empty chamber with 5 loaded is a liability issue behind the firing line. Semi auto with a loaded mag in and an empty chamber behind the firing line is a liability issue. 

Does not matter to an insurance company what your proficiency level is. They are in the what if business. 

 

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58 minutes ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

 

Hi Blazin' Kane,

 

You had your answer in the second post, GJ's. I hope the other answers didn't discourage you. I know most of them (at least here on the Wire). They meant well.

 

BTW, Welcome!

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

Not at all ma'am, I enjoy a lively discussion as much as anyone and am finding the people here to be very friendly and accommodating. Appreciate the warm welcome!

 

52 minutes ago, Marshal TKD, Sass # 36984L said:

It has nothing to do 2A friendly, ability or respecting peoples carry rights.

It is a liability issue for range owners. Our liability insurance does not permit spectators carrying weapons on the range. Only registered competitors can carry weapons. These weapons have to be loaded and unloaded at the designated areas.

Hammer down on an empty chamber with 5 loaded is a liability issue behind the firing line. Semi auto with a loaded mag in and an empty chamber behind the firing line is a liability issue. 

Does not matter to an insurance company what your proficiency level is. They are in the what if business. 

 

 

Makes perfect sense, unfortunately. 

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1 hour ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

 

Hi Blazin' Kane,

 

You had your answer in the second post, GJ's. I hope the other answers didn't discourage you. I know most of them (at least here on the Wire). They meant well.

 

BTW, Welcome!

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

Quote
17 minutes ago, Blazin' Kane said:

 

Not at all ma'am, I enjoy a lively discussion as much as anyone and am finding the people here to be very friendly and accommodating. Appreciate the warm welcome!

 

 

Makes perfect sense, unfortunately. 

 

This^^^^

Rance ;)

Thinkin' ya got yer indoctrination... :huh: Welcome:D

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1 hour ago, Blazin' Kane said:

But this conversation isn't about carrying to and from the shooting area with a loaded firearm, its about me as a spectator not being allowed to carry for the normal reasons people carry for. 

This has been addressed.

 

This conversation continues due to the inability to realize that the 2nd amendment does not provide the right to carry anywhere, anyhow. Just as the 1st amendment does not give you the right to call 'Fire' in a movie theater.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Blast Masterson said:

This has been addressed.

 

This conversation continues due to the inability to realize that the 2nd amendment does not provide the right to carry anywhere, anyhow. Just as the 1st amendment does not give you the right to call 'Fire' in a movie theater.

 

 

 

Sorry Blast, are you referring to me? I don't recall stating anywhere in the conversation that the 2nd amendment gives anyone the right to carry anywhere, nor do I believe it does. I was very clear about respecting private property rules. 

Edited by Blazin' Kane

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1 hour ago, Marshal TKD, Sass # 36984L said:

It has nothing to do 2A friendly, ability or respecting peoples carry rights.

It is a liability issue for range owners. Our liability insurance does not permit spectators carrying weapons on the range. Only registered competitors can carry weapons. These weapons have to be loaded and unloaded at the designated areas.

Hammer down on an empty chamber with 5 loaded is a liability issue behind the firing line. Semi auto with a loaded mag in and an empty chamber behind the firing line is a liability issue. 

Does not matter to an insurance company what your proficiency level is. They are in the what if business. 

 

That's what I thought.  Looking forward to the SE Regional!!  Just a few more months.   It will be my first big match since.....the last SE Regional.  Darn that Covid!

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Pull in range. Leave in truck when you get out.

Enjoy the match.

Put back on when back at truck.

No problems.

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Y'all are beating a dead horse to a bloody pulp.  Cold range.  If you're not registered for the match, leave your piece in the truck and quit taking it personally.  That is all.

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Howdy BK, lotta matches between now and October...go to as many as you can. Call the MD and they can usually have enough guns and gear for you to try. Most of the time folks will be handing you all the guns you need to carry;) Best to try before you buy...Good Luck:)

 

Jefro:ph34r:Relax-Enjoy

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24 minutes ago, Jefro, SASS#69420 said:

Howdy BK, lotta matches between now and October...go to as many as you can. Call the MD and they can usually have enough guns and gear for you to try. Most of the time folks will be handing you all the guns you need to carry;) Best to try before you buy...Good Luck:)

 

Jefro:ph34r:Relax-Enjoy

 What Jefro says is right as rain.

 

Best take a sturdy leather belt that you don't need to hold your pants up that you can hang holsters off though, many folks carry an extra rig as a loaner, but the belts don't always fit....

 

 

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9 hours ago, Grizzly Dave said:

 What Jefro says is right as rain.

 

Best take a sturdy leather belt that you don't need to hold your pants up that you can hang holsters off though, many folks carry an extra rig as a loaner, but the belts don't always fit....

 

 

Yep.  I tell prospective new shooters to wear a sturdy belt, good shoes (not sneakers), long sleeved shirt, and something for your head to keep brass out of your clothes. We'll provide the rest. 

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That's very cool guys. I can't wait to get involved. Now if I could just find the dang ammo...

I'm on the hunt for a shotgun today. Wish me luck.

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1 hour ago, Blazin' Kane said:

That's very cool guys. I can't wait to get involved. Now if I could just find the dang ammo...

I'm on the hunt for a shotgun today. Wish me luck.

If you're planning on an SKB Fast Eddie is the man to go to. 

 

Johnny Meadows does great work on a variety of shotguns and sells them as well.

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1 hour ago, Blazin' Kane said:

That's very cool guys. I can't wait to get involved. Now if I could just find the dang ammo...

I'm on the hunt for a shotgun today. Wish me luck.

Good luck on your search for the shotgun.

 

John Barleycorn has an SKB 100 in the Merchants Corner for a decent price.

 

Call @Scarlett / Bullets by Scarlett,  she might have some ammo.

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3 hours ago, Tyrel Cody said:

Good luck on your search for the shotgun.

 

John Barleycorn has an SKB 100 in the Merchants Corner for a decent price.

 

Call @Scarlett / Bullets by Scarlett,  she might have some ammo.

It’s gonna be about two to three weeks before I’ve got more but it’s coming!  Please email me at bulletsbyscarlett@gmail.com with your shipping address and what you’d like. I will email you an invoice when it’s ready to ship. 
 

Thanks so much.


Big hugs!

Scarlett

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On ‎8‎/‎12‎/‎2020 at 10:25 AM, Blazin' Kane said:

 

Not at all ma'am, I enjoy a lively discussion as much as anyone and am finding the people here to be very friendly and accommodating. Appreciate the warm welcome!

...

Then, you've come to the right place. ;)

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On 8/10/2020 at 2:29 PM, Warden Callaway said:

It would probably be more beneficial all around if you volunteer to help out wherever they will let you.  Even if it's picking up brass. 

Picking up brass will make you a lot of friends.

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