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Tequila Shooter

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In my short (<2 years) and less than glorious SASS career I've noticed that every stage ends with the SG.  I looked through the SHB nothing there says a stage has to end with the SG.  So I went to the Match Directors guide and found this: 

Quote
  1. Always end the shooting string with a shot- gun or revolver, so the time can reliably be recorded. No main stage scenario should ever be designed to end with a rifle.

 

Ok, don't end with the rifle, got it.  Is it habit, or something else that has the stage always ending with the SG?

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16 minutes ago, Tequila Shooter said:

In my short (<2 years) and less than glorious SASS career I've noticed that every stage ends with the SG.  I looked through the SHB nothing there says a stage has to end with the SG.  So I went to the Match Directors guide and found this: 

 

Ok, don't end with the rifle, got it.  Is it habit, or something else that has the stage always ending with the SG?

 

I'm new at writing stages and ask an experienced TO.  The reason he gave to end with shotgun or pistols is that mouse phart loads in rifles won't always record on timer. 

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2 hours ago, Warden Callaway said:

 

I'm new at writing stages and ask an experienced TO.  The reason he gave to end with shotgun or pistols is that mouse phart loads in rifles won't always record on timer. 

 

So have you/will you write one ending on pistols?  

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I try to write as many stages as I can with 'shooter's choice, rifle not last' and give folks the option on gun order, traveling direction, etc. That way, they can play to their strengths in transitions and movement.

 

Doesn't always work out that way, but I do try.

 

There are a few stages that, depending on downrange movement, positioning, etc, will require a set gun order.

 

I just checked the SE regional last year:

6 stages were shooter's choice, Rifle not Last

2 were defined Rifle, Pistol, Shotgun

1 defined Rifle, Shotgun, Pistol

1 was Rifle first, shotgun pistol shooter's choice

 

I know that there are some folks who prefer to always end on the shotgun. Their rational is that, if their last shotgun hulls stick in the chamber, they can clear them off the clock.

 

However, forcing the ending every stage with the shotgun would get a little dull.

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3 hours ago, Warden Callaway said:

 

I'm new at writing stages and ask an experienced TO.  The reason he gave to end with shotgun or pistols is that mouse phart loads in rifles won't always record on timer. 

Not only mouse phart loads.

If the TO isn't on top of his timer placement, obstacles can keep the timer from picking up the sound.

I have seen it happen with shotgun as well as rifle.

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17 minutes ago, Ringer said:

Not only mouse phart loads.

If the TO isn't on top of his timer placement, obstacles can keep the timer from picking up the sound.

I have seen it happen with shotgun as well as rifle.

 

We are blessed to have some pretty good TOs.  They stay in close and I see them move in closer when someone is shooting light loads. They check the timer to see if it registered shots. 

 

Then I've seen a few TOs that start the timer and step back and lean against the stage at the far in until the last shots and then step forward to record last shot. 

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3 hours ago, Warden Callaway said:

 

The reason he gave to end with shotgun or pistols is that mouse phart loads in rifles won't always record on timer. 

 

46 minutes ago, Ringer said:

Not only mouse phart loads.

If the TO isn't on top of his timer placement, obstacles can keep the timer from picking up the sound.

I have seen it happen with shotgun as well as rifle.

 

There may also be issues with the timer picking up rifle shots with a buckaroo/buckarette shooting 22s.

 

see also: https://www.sassnet.com/Downloads/Match Dir Guide 103018.pdf

 

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I have never had an issue picking up any firearm on the timer except a .22 rifle on occasion. Many clubs I go to prefer not to end on the rifle, but pretty much evenly use shotgun or pistol as the last firearm.

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Most cowpokes are trained to end with the shotgun.  Fun to watch them shoot rifle then shotgun.  Then they stop to start towards the unloading table while the posses yells "PISTOLS!".

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4 hours ago, Tequila Shooter said:

 Is it habit, or something else that has the stage always ending with the SG?

 

Must be habit.  Our stages are pretty evenly split between ending with SG and pistols. 

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If yer stages always end with shotgun, you have lousy stage writers.

 

Phantom

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Write more split pistol stages and quit catering to gunfighters.:o

 

Lateral movement stages should allow the shooter the option to start left or right, which will allow the shooter to start or finish with a pistol or shotgun. 

Down range movement doesn't allow as many options. 

 

This is all dependent upon facades, and props. If you have permanent facades it can limit your ability to allow options.

 

Phantom wrote a good split pistol stage for Hell On Wheels. It was well received by everyone except the gunfighters. 

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1 minute ago, Assassin said:

Phantom wrote a good split pistol stage for Hell On Wheels. It was well received by everyone except the gunfighters. 

 

I've shot split pistol gunfighter.  If it's just changing position,  I all out "hammers down on empty" so the TO knows.  If there is a gun between,  I just shoot double duelist. 

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1 hour ago, Warden Callaway said:

 

I've shot split pistol gunfighter.  If it's just changing position,  I all out "hammers down on empty" so the TO knows.  If there is a gun between,  I just shoot double duelist. 

And that's the way it's supposed to be...but many think it's better to appease Gunfighters 100% of the time rather than put a variation in gun sequence to make a match a bit more interesting...

 

And don't get all huffy on me Gunfighters...we duelists don't go bitching (too much...), when a match has a bunch of "Dumps".

 

Phantom

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1 hour ago, Assassin said:

 

 

Phantom wrote a good split pistol stage for Hell On Wheels. It was well received by everyone except the gunfighters. 

I am a gunfighter but count me out, split pistols are just another gunfighter skill that provides interest and is a skill to learn or why else do we play a game?

 

Fordyce

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As a former stage writer, occasionally I would write a stage where the rifle was shot last. I would, however, make sure that there were no props, doors, or windows to shoot the rifle thru thereby making it harder for the timer to pick up the last shot.

 

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1 minute ago, Turkey Creek Red, SASS # 22854 said:

As a former stage writer, occasionally I would write a stage where the rifle was shot last. I would, however, make sure that there were no props, doors, or windows to shoot the rifle thru thereby making it harder for the timer to pick up the last shot.

 

Perhaps the biggest problem is not the props, doors, etc, but the TO not making sure the timer is in a position that allows it to pick up the shots...then you have the whole consistency issue where some TO's make sure the timer is picking up the rifle shots and other's are not.

 

Just not good...

 

Phantom

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Just so I understand, the rifle not last because the the timer may not pick up the last shot?  Is this because of the rifle barrel being further away from the timer itself?  And pistols don't have this issue because the barrels are shorter?

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Clubs around here end with pistols all the time.

 

And have seen times TO's don't get that timer in the correct position to get the last

pistol shots. They need to be mindful of that.

Think it has happened to me while I was shooting. As was pretty darn sure I was not that

fast on a stage before. But that's ok if that miss picking up my shots.:ph34r::o

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9 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

If yer stages always end with shotgun, you have lousy stage writers.

 

Phantom

Exactly!

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Start position, gun order, shooting sequence, line, movement amount and direction should all vary.  However, rifle should not be last due to timing inconsistencies (as has already been said).

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21 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

...we duelists don't go bitching (too much...), when a match has a bunch of "Dumps".

 

Phantom

 

 

Speak for yourself :lol:

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17 hours ago, Tequila Shooter said:

Just so I understand, the rifle not last because the the timer may not pick up the last shot?  Is this because of the rifle barrel being further away from the timer itself?  And pistols don't have this issue because the barrels are shorter?

 

That's half of it.  The other half is very soft loads that aren't very loud to begin with.  But as Phantom has so rightly pointed out, a good TO knows where to hold the timer so it picks up shots from even the longest barreled rifle shooting the softest loads.  It's not rocket surgery. 

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22 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

And that's the way it's supposed to be...but many think it's better to appease Gunfighters 100% of the time rather than put a variation in gun sequence to make a match a bit more interesting...

 

And don't get all huffy on me Gunfighters...we duelists don't go bitching (too much...), when a match has a bunch of "Dumps".

 

Phantom

 

 

Not having split pistols just to make sure GFers don't get butt hurt really takes something out.

They should know how to deal with it. And YES. I shot GFer for YEARS and still did not mind a split

pistol stage now and then. As long as not over done. One a match was fine with me.

 

As a long time duelist. I really dislike anything over 3 shots in a row on the same target.

But just deal with the dumps.

 

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On 7/29/2020 at 6:04 AM, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

I know that there are some folks who prefer to always end on the shotgun. Their rational is that, if their last shotgun hulls stick in the chamber, they can clear them off the clock.

 

I prefer to start with the Shotgun.  If I fumble finger the first load, I can get a restart.  Of course, I never do.  Its the second load I fumble around with.

 

Chancy

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The main club I frequent has well written stages IMHO that typically leave it up to the shooter.  Stage directions usually say something like "starting with any firearm, but the rifle cannot be last."  I typically prefer to end with the shotgun that way I am not shucking my last two shells on the clock.

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4 hours ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

That's half of it.  The other half is very soft loads that aren't very loud to begin with.  But as Phantom has so rightly pointed out, a good TO knows where to hold the timer so it picks up shots from even the longest barreled rifle shooting the softest loads.  It's not rocket surgery. 

Some stages prohibit the TO's ability to hold the timer in the correct spot.  And some shooters can ABSOLUTELY outrun the TO.

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3 hours ago, Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 said:

Some stages prohibit the TO's ability to hold the timer in the correct spot.  And some shooters can ABSOLUTELY outrun the TO.

Absolutely true.

I consider myself a fairly good TO and while not fast - quick enough to get the timer there for the last couple shots.

But I sometimes find myself looking for ways to cheat that distance because either the facade is a challenge to work around or the shooter is just that much faster than I am.

 

I can pickup a SG round or pistol round on the timer from out of position - for rifle; the positioning is much more sensitive.

 

Not saying NEVER end with the rifle - but strongly consider the stage and possible movements when choosing to do so. 

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And as for split pistols...

Meaning pistols split by another gun - not location (moving with both guns out is a hoot); Double Duelist is a skillset that Gunfighters are supposed to have.

 

And since I was a really good Double Duelist before moving to Gunfighter (and a lot of Gunfighters are not); I dont mind the advantage too much.

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

And since I was a really good Double Duelist before moving to Gunfighter (and a lot of Gunfighters are not); I dont mind the advantage too much.

 

 

 

And this is how the fight started 

 

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At my home range I pretty much write all of my stages as "shooter's choice" with no qualifications as to when to shoot the rifle. Our bays all have tall dirt berms so there's no bleed-over from neighboring bays and we have all Pact timers and we've never had an issue with picking up the rifle shots no matter how light the loads are.

 

I firmly believe that the timer itself makes a lot of difference when it comes to getting all of the shots registered as well as where the TO holds it. I try to make sure that I always have the pickup mic on the timer pointed, from a relatively short distance, toward the muzzle of the gun being fired. I've timed shooter's choice stages on a wide open firing line at a neighboring range the same way with no rifle shot issues as well.

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