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Creeker, SASS #43022

Cowboy Untouchables

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13 hours ago, Rafe Conager SASS #56958 said:

Sass already has a min. Smoke standard of 1cc or 15 grains of black powder per the shooters handbook not sure if you can get 1cc of black in a 32, I know of some who use a .6cc lee dipper which is maybe  10 grains. We need to enforce standards. I used to enjoy shooting classic cowboy until some folks loaded their 45 colts to less than a mild 38 load.

Rafe

Why would someone else shooting a mild load matter to you?

6 minutes ago, Rafe Conager SASS #56958 said:

Nope! I have fun no matter what.

Seems inconsistent. 

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58 minutes ago, Baltimore Ed said:

Even though its been years since I’ve been to a dedicated sass club monthly let alone state or regional, [My cas club is an unaffiliated sass club so we are not bound by SASS’ dictates.] but in keeping with the op’s question my untouchable would be safety rules but also the clothing requirements. I have always dressed the part and enjoyed doing it but have evolved from cowpoke and towney to movie characters and uniforms. I don’t see pre 1900 guns as untouchable and would love to see some double actions allowed. Enforce the minimum power rule or do away with it. It’s so uncowboy to see a healthy 250 lb grown man go to the line and after the beep hear tink-tink-tink-etc for 20 rds. And I’ve been on possees with the guys that Cat talks about, they paid their money to shoot not work, absolute minimum outfit, etc. The positive thing is that folks with that mindset get bored eventually and move on. I would simply say evolve or die out. While I don’t like change any more than anyone does variety is a good thing. 

I cry BS.

 

You attack folks for using light loads...do you live with their body? How do you know that they don't have medical problems??? Or, perhaps they just like to play the game differently than you (and within the rules).

 

And you wanna know who I see sitting around and not helping on a posse more times than not? It's the OLD GROUCHY FAT MAN. It's not the minimalist...

 

And thanks for supporting your SASS clubs...and SASS State and Regionals...

 

Phantom

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8531F2F1-7529-453A-AAB2-47124718CBAF.jpeg.58993bb39c77fa432119e71545d583a9.jpeg

I apologize for my ignorance, just googled it, I knew the sass min was low but 400 fps is 200+- fps slower than the lowly .38 spcl. But I would still claim that I’ve shot with [less than 400 fps] tinkers. And I’m not a grouchy old fat man you young smart-alecky goshdurned whippersnapper. I’m a good looking 69 year old, 6’4 packed in a svelt 239 and a half lbs duelist .45 shootin hombre. 

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8 minutes ago, Baltimore Ed said:

8531F2F1-7529-453A-AAB2-47124718CBAF.jpeg.58993bb39c77fa432119e71545d583a9.jpeg

I apologize for my ignorance, just googled it, I knew the sass min was low but 400 fps is 200+- fps slower than the lowly .38 spcl. But I would still claim that I’ve shot with [less than 400 fps] tinkers. And I’m not a grouchy old fat man you young smart-alecky goshdurned whippersnapper. I’m a good looking 69 year old, 6’4 packed in a svelt 239 and a half lbs duelist .45 shootin hombre. 

That's a real nice "Cowboy" photo:lol:

 

Now go back and tell me where I said you were old and fat...I dare you to find that!

 

And lastly, I can see why you'd agree with Cat Brulee... Looks like you have something in common; both of you don't really shoot CAS any longer. Perhaps you should?

 

Phantom

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14 hours ago, Assassin said:

A few changes are necessary in order to increase membership. 

Simplifying rules, more movement, easing dress codes, etc. is just a suggestion that may attract new members. The old way of doing things is no longer valid.


I'm personally unsure that ANY changes are needed in our sport, other than to get a view of our great sport out more broadly, to a bigger audience.  . 

 

Unless we become a spectator sport like baseball, and do heavy promotion to attract large paying crowds of spectators (unlikely), participating shooters will always be the determinant of size and financial viability of our matches.  At present, promotions and sponsorships are nearly all directed toward attracting shooter sign-ups, rather than to attracting spectators.  So our sport will definitely fade if  shooter attrition progresses.  But I am unsure that the attrition can be very effectively countered.  I don't think we are making mistakes in our rules or dress, or firearms covenants that are holding masses of new younger potential shooters away.   The cost of the firearms themselves is certainly a factor, but not necessarily a "mistake", IMO.

 

I would not want to see our overall identity shifted very far in pursuit of some presumed hybrid more survivable sport.   

 

 

 

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I hadn’t thought about it but you’re probably right. I shoot WASA. Here’s a more appropriate photo then. Do you like my Gabby? Yer dern tootin.

87E7D19C-0878-4E0A-BE94-B4B9F10E9906.jpeg

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Posted (edited)

This goes off the track of "What's your Untouchable", for that I do apologize.

But, I wanted to mention that I have a social media site aimed primarily at those who know little to nothing about SASS or Cowboy Action Shooting.

There are a LOT of folks out there who don't even know it exists!

We've managed to get a number of those folks hooked and they proudly post pictures of their new badges.  SASS is constantly getting new members.  Does that offset the retiring, no longer active shooters?  I do not know.

 

.No one has grumbled or complained about the clothing requirements, once we explain that they don't have to shoot in one of the two "costume categories".  (I'd like to see the SHB put the Costume Categories at the end of the Category Section instead of the beginning.  It gets a lot of people confused).

 

.There are a number of "former shooters" who complain about the lack of more stringent clothing requirements, and lack of movement in our stages.

.There are a number of "former shooters" who complain that the targets are too close, and that they can't win unless they get their guns "short stroked" or shoot "wimp loads" like .38 special.

 

I've tried to engage those former shooters, and ask if truly they were shooting near the top of their category, but indeed lost out because their guns weren't short-stroked, or their loads were too heavy to be competitive?  Had they practiced to become as smooth and quick as possible on their transitions?  Were they shooting as fast as they were able with no, (or minimal), misses?   Had they refined their shotgun/shotshell handling to the point that there is little wasted motion?  Do they practice against a timer?  No one has answered these questions yet.

 

Against my better judgement and my screaming joints:

I've written matches with a couple of stages that had a lot more movement.  The posses didn't like it.

I've written matches with couple of stages that had the pistol targets further out, sometimes shooting at our biggest targets at 15-18yds.   The posses didn't like it.

I've written matches with couple of stages that were more complex.  The posses didn't like it.

 

SASS matches have evolved to "big and close" for the most part because the average shooter likes it.  Not, because of the top shooters.

More difficult stages are still won by the top shooters, because they are the more practiced, better, shooters.

 

So, back to "untouchables"  

1.  Clothing Requirements

2. The Guns

(This does not mean that local clubs can't continue to experiment in whatever way they like... rimfire category, sodbuster category, one gun, two gun, box stock category, whatever)

(If folks want to shoot "box stock" nothing is stopping them.  Come join us Frontiersmen and bring out your cap n' ball revolvers!)

 

I would like to see some movement while shooting allowed, IF the shooter so chooses.  W3G, Doc Shapiro's club, and other disciplines have proven that it can be done safely.  But, I know I'm in the minority here, and that will never pass.  I can't even find a TG willing to bring up the subject.

 

Edited by McCandless
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Just an FYI - I never ran during a W3G stage...when you move, you move slowly.

 

What's more dangerous...?

 

Phantom

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Posted (edited)

Cowboy Untouchables

...to me this topic has to do with Vision...   ...what was the original vision for the game when the Wild Bunch first set up SASS as a governing body for Cowboy Action Shooting?  ...have we maintained that Vision or have we lost that Vision?  

I sorry to say this but we have made this Cowboy Action Shooting game way more complicated and rule bound than need be...

We have governed the game to death... 

It is no longer just plain fun...   ...it is no longer a really fun game...   .

We have found the bad guys and it is us...

...imho...

...have a nice day...

Edited by Oklahomabound
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46 minutes ago, McCandless said:

This goes off the track of "What's your Untouchable", for that I do apologize.

But, I wanted to mention that I have a social media site aimed primarily at those who know little to nothing about SASS or Cowboy Action Shooting.

There are a LOT of folks out there who don't even know it exists!

We've managed to get a number of those folks hooked and they proudly post pictures of their new badges.  SASS is constantly getting new members.  Does that offset the retiring, no longer active shooters?  I do not know.

 

.No one has grumbled or complained about the clothing requirements, once we explain that they don't have to shoot in one of the two "costume categories".  (I'd like to see the SHB put the Costume Categories at the end of the Category Section instead of the beginning.  It gets a lot of people confused).

 

.There are a number of "former shooters" who complain about the lack of more stringent clothing requirements, and lack of movement in our stages.

.There are a number of "former shooters" who complain that the targets are too close, and that they can't win unless they get their guns "short stroked" or shoot "wimp loads" like .38 special.

 

I've tried to engage those former shooters, and ask if truly they were shooting near the top of their category, but indeed lost out because their guns weren't short-stroked, or their loads were too heavy to be competitive?  Had they practiced to become as smooth and quick as possible on their transitions?  Were they shooting as fast as they were able with no, (or minimal), misses?   Had they refined their shotgun/shotshell handling to the point that there is little wasted motion?  Do they practice against a timer?  No one has answered these questions yet.

 

Against my better judgement and my screaming joints:

I've written matches with a couple of stages that had a lot more movement.  The posses didn't like it.

I've written matches with couple of stages that had the pistol targets further out, sometimes shooting at our biggest targets at 15-18yds.   The posses didn't like it.

I've written matches with couple of stages that were more complex.  The posses didn't like it.

 

SASS matches have evolved to "big and close" for the most part because the average shooter likes it.  Not, because of the top shooters.

More difficult stages are still won by the top shooters, because they are the more practiced, better, shooters.

 

So, back to "untouchables"  

1.  Clothing Requirements

2. The Guns

(This does not mean that local clubs can't continue to experiment in whatever way they like... rimfire category, sodbuster category, one gun, two gun, box stock category, whatever)

(If folks want to shoot "box stock" nothing is stopping them.  Come join us Frontiersmen and bring out your cap n' ball revolvers!)

 

I would like to see some movement while shooting allowed, IF the shooter so chooses.  W3G, Doc Shapiro's club, and other disciplines have proven that it can be done safely.  But, I know I'm in the minority here, and that will never pass.  I can't even find a TG willing to bring up the subject.

 

Doc, I follow you on facebook and have really been surprised at the number of new members that have joined Sass these past few months, your page is well attended and well done, you are doing a great job of promoting our sport and I sure appreciate it!   SCJ

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13 minutes ago, Oklahomabound said:

Cowboy Untouchables

...to me this topic has to do with Vision...   ...what was the original vision for the game when the Wild Bunch first set up SASS as a governing body for Cowboy Action Shooting?  ...have we maintained that Vision or have we lost that Vision?  

I sorry to say this but we have made this Cowboy Action Shooting game way more complicated and rule bound than need be...

We have governed the game to death... 

It is no longer just plain fun...   ...it is no longer a really fun game...   .

We have found the bad guys and it is us...

...imho...

...have a nice day...

Wow Oklahomabound, in just a few lines you sure slammed the best and most fun shooting sport I have ever been involved with and I have been involved with quite a few, by your sass# you have been in the game a lot longer than I have so you are sure welcome to your opinion but man, if this was any more fun with any better people in it I dont think I could stand it! Question, do you still  attend and shoot sass matches?  SCJ

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Slammed? No I wouldn't say he slammed it. Just saying how he feels and a talking about how things have changed. 

 

If they haven't, everyone should read Bronc's article on page 43 of the July Chronicle

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1 hour ago, Oklahomabound said:

Cowboy Untouchables

...to me this topic has to do with Vision...   ...what was the original vision for the game when the Wild Bunch first set up SASS as a governing body for Cowboy Action Shooting?  ...have we maintained that Vision or have we lost that Vision?  

I sorry to say this but we have made this Cowboy Action Shooting game way more complicated and rule bound than need be...

We have governed the game to death... 

It is no longer just plain fun...   ...it is no longer a really fun game...   .

We have found the bad guys and it is us...

...imho...

...have a nice day...

 

Original Vision... is something that even the Wild Bunch couldn't keep.  PWB has said that 99% of the rules were made because of less than 1% of the members. 

What rules would you do away with?  (In which case... you would then allow what the rule forbids)  

What makes it NOT fun for you?   (Maybe others feel that way, too).

What would you want NOT touched?  (Your Untouchables)

 

For me, I'm no longer at the point where I can shoot prone from under a wagon, get up run and kneel behind hay bales for the next target., run and shoot from another position.  Nor can I clamber up out of a coffin...  Those were fun then, but this is now.  We have to cater to the younger shooters and us older shooters, too.

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1 hour ago, Oklahomabound said:

Cowboy Untouchables

...to me this topic has to do with Vision...   ...what was the original vision for the game when the Wild Bunch first set up SASS as a governing body for Cowboy Action Shooting?  ...have we maintained that Vision or have we lost that Vision?  

I sorry to say this but we have made this Cowboy Action Shooting game way more complicated and rule bound than need be...

We have governed the game to death... 

It is no longer just plain fun...   ...it is no longer a really fun game...   .

We have found the bad guys and it is us...

 I have to agree with you sir. When a sport becomes an equipment race it has problems. And then a bunch more rules have to be created to deal with those issues. CAS was created to be fun with old guns which I believe was the Vision of the Wild Bunch and for most shooters it still is but the need for speed and to win at any financial cost has created sass’ arms race. And caused people to quit. This need for speed has moved targets closer and bigger and has created an entire industry of aftermarket gun parts and talented gunsmiths to slick guns up to gain a few seconds on the clock. I am loath to say we need more categories but stock and unlimited do come to mind with the elimination of a bunch of others. Between the gun categories, propellant categories, age categories, gender categories and shooting style categories it’s way more complicated than it needs to be. Do we all need an award?  Was that the WB’s Vision? Don’t think so. Their Vision was to have fun by playing cowboys and indians [not to disparage native Americans] with real western guns. A truly great idea. I’ve heard it said, ‘the most fun you can have with your clothes on.’ Don’t get me wrong, my wife and I have had a ball playing this game, been all across the country and met some really great folks over the years but SASS does have problems. 
 

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If the slicked up/race guns were taken away the same folks that are winning with those slicked up/race guns would still be winning. That argument is misguided and simply insulting. If it were about money and raced up guns I would have been TN State Champ for the last several years, yet I only have 1 buckle and that one only because I live here. It's not the guns, its the hours spent practicing.

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What would make me drop this sport after 20+ years = untouchables.

 

Live ammo is a must, haven't seen that mentioned.

Cowboy era is a must so western clothing is required.

CAS has to remain an amateur sport without sponsored shooters(advertising as such) or prizes based on placement.

VARIETY is essential, I am not a golfer but I can't imagine going to the same course time after time and doing the same thing over and over again. Ruts and stagnation will doom anything.

I have shot matches with stage titles and procedures and no story or set-up and I have shot matches with aspiring novelists with a long story/ set-up. I much prefer a nice short story and set-up. Without it we are just shooting and I can do that without travel and other expenses. 

 

Doc Nelson

 

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48 minutes ago, Baltimore Ed said:

 I have to agree with you sir. When a sport becomes an equipment race it has problems. And then a bunch more rules have to be created to deal with those issues. CAS was created to be fun with old guns which I believe was the Vision of the Wild Bunch and for most shooters it still is but the need for speed and to win at any financial cost has created sass’ arms race. And caused people to quit. This need for speed has moved targets closer and bigger and has created an entire industry of aftermarket gun parts and talented gunsmiths to slick guns up to gain a few seconds on the clock. I am loath to say we need more categories but stock and unlimited do come to mind with the elimination of a bunch of others. Between the gun categories, propellant categories, age categories, gender categories and shooting style categories it’s way more complicated than it needs to be. Do we all need an award?  Was that the WB’s Vision? Don’t think so. Their Vision was to have fun by playing cowboys and indians [not to disparage native Americans] with real western guns. A truly great idea. I’ve heard it said, ‘the most fun you can have with your clothes on.’ Don’t get me wrong, my wife and I have had a ball playing this game, been all across the country and met some really great folks over the years but SASS does have problems. 
 

I don't get you. You talk about the WB's vision like you were there with them when they started the game.

 

So...it was alllll about fun and nothing more...back in the good old days. So is that why Tex put baby powder in his SG belt loops??? Is that why China Camp put in a zillion hours of practice??? Is that why they invented the reverse spin on their revolvers??? Oh I could do on...but somehow I just know that your mind is set.

 

Phantom

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Posted (edited)

 No I wasn’t there, didn’t mean to imply that I was, I’ve been to the left coast but the farthest west that I’ve ever shot cas was the Wyoming State in Cody and an EOT at the Ranch and several in Texas Hill Country . A whole bunch on the east coast.  Just going by stories that I’ve read about SASS’s beginnings. But I’ve been playing this game since 1995 and it was a lot simpler and more enjoyable then. 

Edited by Baltimore Ed

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Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, Baltimore Ed said:

 No I wasn’t there, didn’t mean to imply that I was, I’ve been to the left coast but the farthest west that I’ve ever shot cas was the Wyoming State in Cody and an EOT at the Ranch and several in Texas Hill Country . A whole bunch on the east coast.  Just going by stories that I’ve read about SASS’s beginnings. But I’ve been playing this game since 1995 and it was a lot simpler and more enjoyable then. 

I was blessed to have been mentored by folks that wree around near or at the very beginning...and on the WEST COAST!!!! The place many demean yet it's where "IT" all started and the WEST COAST is full of WONDERFUL people...like the East Coast is soooo perfect...

 

I get pretty tired...worn out...by folks that tell how pure and wonderful SASS/CAS used to be. Weren't no different...just that the CAS Industry wasn't fully developed yet.

 

Phantom

Edited by Phantom, SASS #54973
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CAS has indeed become an industry which is a good thing. Keeps Americans and Italians working. 

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All these folks with their nebulous "it was better back then", have not come up with what was better back then and what their "untouchables" are for present day and the future.  All complaining but no solutions.

 

 

This "tricked out guns" argument is an expedient rationalization for why they don't, can't shoot better or faster.

I have the best of work done on the best of guns by the best of gunsmiths... guess what?  You can't buy a championship!

 

Maybe if I practiced perfectly with another 10,000-20,000 rounds a year with the help of a mentor, and a lot more dry fire practice, I'd be able to shave some seconds off my stages,

But, I'm not fooling myself, besides practice, there is also natural talent and folks less stove up than me.

 

In my area, I'm never going to be as fast as Three Cut, Red River Ray, Null & Void, Marshal Harland Wolff, Earl E. Bird, JM Brown, and many others...

I don't care, I'm having fun.  There's a grin on my face and I keep coming back, sending smoke, lead, and BOOM downrange.

 

If you have an idea of what would make things more fun and attract more people.... out with it already!!!!

 

 

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"If you have an idea of what would make things more fun and attract more people.... out with it already!!!!"

 

Why didn't you say that it the first place. I have the answer.

 

 

Red "Make SASS Great Again" cowboy hats

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5 hours ago, Silver Creek Jack said:

Doc, I follow you on facebook and have really been surprised at the number of new members that have joined Sass these past few months, your page is well attended and well done, you are doing a great job of promoting our sport and I sure appreciate it!   SCJ

Asa true newbie, that fb page helped me so much and next to attending was by far the best resource,  dare I say,more than even these forums 

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14 minutes ago, Ambush Andy said:

Asa true newbie, that fb page helped me so much and next to attending was by far the best resource,  dare I say,more than even these forums 

 

Doc has contributed to SASS in many ways and he’s like the gift that keeps on giving!!

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Why would someone else shooting a mild load matter to you?

Seems inconsistent. 

If you are going to have rules then they need to be enforced, if the rule book says your load needs to make x amount of smoke or be equivalent to x ccs of powder then everyone should play bye the same rules! 

Never understood why someone would buy a 40 cal or larger gun then down load the ammo so much that the to and spotters aren't sure if the lead left your barrel. Yes I have seen it happen. 

And no way what anyone else is shooting will never dictate the amount of fun I have, I will never give anyone that much power over me. 

Edited by Rafe Conager SASS #56958
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10 minutes ago, Rafe Conager SASS #56958 said:

If you are going to have rules then they need to be enforced, if the rule book says your load needs to make x amount of smoke or be equivalent to x ccs of powder then everyone should play bye the same rules! 

Never understood why someone would buy a 40 cal or larger gun then down load the ammo so much that the to and spotters aren't sure if the lead left your barrel. Yes I have seen it happen. 

And no way what anyone else is shooting will never dictate the amount of fun I have, I will never give anyone that much power over me. 

I'm with you - other's idea of fun doesn't bother me...I may think they are idiots...but hell, they think I'm an idiot too so we're even :P

 

On the Smoke test. It's terribly disruptive to the goings on of a match. In addition, it's subjective. If one is borderline on the smoke...the ruling might go different ways for different people in different conditions. 

 

What would be wrong with the powers that be, when faced with a challenge, randomly take rounds from the "Challenged", go off into some hidden and dark place...maybe a cave...and pull the bullets. if the case if full and they are using a legal cartridge, all is good. If not, then death by Roo-Roo.

 

Phantom

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, McCandless said:

All these folks with their nebulous "it was better back then", have not come up with what was better back then and what their "untouchables" are for present day and the future.  All complaining but no solutions.

 

 

This "tricked out guns" argument is an expedient rationalization for why they don't, can't shoot better or faster.

I have the best of work done on the best of guns by the best of gunsmiths... guess what?  You can't buy a championship!

 

Maybe if I practiced perfectly with another 10,000-20,000 rounds a year with the help of a mentor, and a lot more dry fire practice, I'd be able to shave some seconds off my stages,

But, I'm not fooling myself, besides practice, there is also natural talent and folks less stove up than me.

 

In my area, I'm never going to be as fast as Three Cut, Red River Ray, Null & Void, Marshal Harland Wolff, Earl E. Bird, JM Brown, and many others...

I don't care, I'm having fun.  There's a grin on my face and I keep coming back, sending smoke, lead, and BOOM downrange.

 

If you have an idea of what would make things more fun and attract more people.... out with it already!!!!

 

 

 

Good post.

If a feller wants to run his 10 rounds thru both pistols in sub 3 or even sub 2 seconds,

he better set his Par Time at 1.5 seconds and beat it, whether those pistols are tricked out

or not.

 

If a feller want to run impossible speeds from his SG (87, 97 or SxS), he better be ready to wear a few calluses on his hands

along with spending some serious $$$ on SG shells.   And those calluses are earned from SG's

whether they are tricked out or not.

 

There are times I have MY kinda fun running wide open.   But, there are more times I just enjoy the day shooting with

folks and hoping I don't trip over meowndangfeet.

 

..........Widder

 

Edited by Widder, SASS #59054
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Posted (edited)

Re:  BP minimum smoke standard:
 

Pull the bullets and the case is full of powder, but it’s a mix of 2 grains of BP and Trailboss or something else that is making a puny smoke cloud.  Yeah it’s a duplex load, and therefore illegal.  But will every MD recognize it?

 

Pull the bullet and find several lube wads between the powder and bullet, which significantly reduces case volume.

 

it’s difficult and even more time consuming to pull balls or bullets out of a percussion revolver chamber, and you are likely to find lube wads under those projectiles as well.

 

So,  will there be a new rule to prohibit or limit lube wads?
 

The fact that the present standard has some subjective interpretation is its strength.  Those who are inclined to gain a perceived edge by reducing the smoke volume realize that if they cut the powder charge too much, someone is likely to lodge a challenge.  It provides some encouragement to make smoke, which is why the standard was established in the first place.

 

Before the standard was established, I saw several competitors in the BP categories with really puny smoke clouds.   I bet others did too. (Enough to make the rule In the first place!)  Since the standard has been formalized I have not seen puny smoke clouds and have not been at a match where a challenge has been lodged.  It’s my understanding that complaints and challenges about puny smoke clouds are pretty rare.

 

The present BP smoke standard IS subjective, but it apparently is accomplishing its purpose.

Edited by J-BAR #18287
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Posted (edited)

Dang. Think some need some wine to go with whine. Good grief.

Edited by Anvil Al #59168
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14 minutes ago, J-BAR #18287 said:

Re:  BP minimum smoke standard:
 

Pull the bullets and the case is full of powder, but it’s a mix of 2 grains of BP and Trailboss or something else that is making a puny smoke cloud.  Yeah it’s a duplex load, and therefore illegal.  But will every MD recognize it?

 

Pull the bullet and find several lube wads between the powder and bullet, which significantly reduces case volume.

 

it’s difficult and even more time consuming to pull balls or bullets out of a percussion revolver chamber, and you are likely to find lube wads under those projectiles as well.

 

So,  will there be a new rule to prohibit or limit lube wads?
 

The fact that the present standard has some subjective interpretation is its strength.  Those who are inclined to gain a perceived edge by reducing the smoke volume realize that if they cut the powder charge too much, someone is likely to lodge a challenge.  It provides some encouragement to make smoke, which is why the standard was established in the first place.

 

Before the standard was established, I saw several competitors in the BP categories with really puny smoke clouds.   I bet others did too. (Enough to make the rule In the first place!)  Since the standard has been formalized I have not seen puny smoke clouds and have not been at a match where a challenge has been lodged.  It’s my understanding that complaints and challenges about puny smoke clouds are pretty rare.

 

The present BP smoke standard IS subjective, but it apparently is accomplishing its purpose.

I thought when you shot BP that you only had to load "every other" round with BP?!??

Do all of them have to have BP in them??

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Phantom, ol’ buddy.  It has been demonstrated that the amount of powder used doesn’t directly correspond with the amount of smoke produced.  

 

I can go along with the pulling of bullets, but as I said earlier, I use a fiber wad on top of my powder charge to help keep my guns running smoothly.  Would I be penalized because my cartridge didn’t contain 40gr of powder and instead only held 37gr? How would that be fair and equitable when some other shooter using a smaller bore firearm, even with a full case, makes less smoke with that case full but is only using 20gr of the same propellant??? We’re both challenged, but because I use that fiber wad, I get disqualified and the other shooter is allowed to continue!

 

Would your rule make allowances for this?  Would shooters who use other fillers be required to abandon their loading procedures! If allowances were made, how much filler or what thickness wad would be over the limit and for which calibers??

 

Why wouldn’t a universal minimum volume of powder be  more acceptable, even preferred?? It’s easy to keep propellant and filler separated and the fiber wads are obviously not propellant.

 

A universal minimum volume would be a rock solid, MEASURABLE, easy to establish way of settling any suspicion and everyone would have a concrete baseline to work from.

 

Otherwise, we’d just as well stay with what we have!!

 

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10 minutes ago, Patagonia Pete said:

I thought when you shot BP that you only had to load "every other" round with BP?!??

Do all of them have to have BP in them??

?

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7 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

?

OK .. I was trolling .. but now that I think about it ... it doesn't seem like such a bad idea!! :ph34r:

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8 minutes ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

Phantom, ol’ buddy.  It has been demonstrated that the amount of powder used doesn’t directly correspond with the amount of smoke produced.  

 

I can go along with the pulling of bullets, but as I said earlier, I use a fiber wad on top of my powder charge to help keep my guns running smoothly.  Would I be penalized because my cartridge didn’t contain 40gr of powder and instead only held 37gr? How would that be fair and equitable when some other shooter using a smaller bore firearm, even with a full case, makes less smoke with that case full but is only using 20gr of the same propellant??? We’re both challenged, but because I use that fiber wad, I get disqualified and the other shooter is allowed to continue!

 

Would your rule make allowances for this?  Would shooters who use other fillers be required to abandon their loading procedures! If allowances were made, how much filler or what thickness wad would be over the limit and for which calibers??

 

Why wouldn’t a universal minimum volume of powder be  more acceptable, even preferred?? It’s easy to keep propellant and filler separated and the fiber wads are obviously not propellant.

 

A universal minimum volume would be a rock solid, MEASURABLE, easy to establish way of settling any suspicion and everyone would have a concrete baseline to work from.

 

Otherwise, we’d just as well stay with what we have!!

 

You make some good points. 

 

This I know - the current system is no-bueno!  Again, it's not only the issue of measuring whether the load is sufficient, it's also about how the process is disruptive. 

 

My suggestion isn't perfect...far from it. But perhaps it can be expanded on by some smart people so that it minimizes subjectivity and doesn't throw a wrench into someone's match.

 

Phantom

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2 minutes ago, Patagonia Pete said:

OK .. I was trolling .. but now that I think about it ... it doesn't seem like such a bad idea!! :ph34r:

Yeah...cheating...the good 'ol Cowboy Way.

 

:lol:

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