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Just a quick opinion on rule changes...

 

Any safety rule changes need to happen quickly, and not be subject to a schedule.

 

Anything else (categories, styles, legal firearms or modifications, ???) should happen predictably, perhaps no sooner than quarterly, every two years seems like a very long time.

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24 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

Ditto here in Ohio!;)

Any links I could check out?

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Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

Just a quick opinion on rule changes...

 

Any safety rule changes need to happen quickly, and not be subject to a schedule.

 

Anything else (categories, styles, legal firearms or modifications, ???) should happen predictably, perhaps no sooner than quarterly, every two years seems like a very long time.

 

The current rule book has been around for a long time. How many safety issues are there in there now, and why have we not changed them yet? How many of the rule changes that we have made in the past 10 years are to correct safety issues? 

 

Please also read the following from @Blackjack Zak : 

specifically: 

 

Quote

The process for rule changes takes a ground swell, and it takes time...  This process takes time, and it should!  We should never move quickly to change existing rules and philosophies.....as we don't want to "tilt at windmills".  As a community we should react slowly, even to changes that are truly needed, and driven by the majority of the community...not passing fads.  We need to always do what is best for SASS and our game.

 

 

Edited by Branchwater Jack SASS #88854
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1 hour ago, John Kloehr said:

Just a quick opinion on rule changes...

 

Any safety rule changes need to happen quickly, and not be subject to a schedule.

 

Anything else (categories, styles, legal firearms or modifications, ???) should happen predictably, perhaps no sooner than quarterly, every two years seems like a very long time.

The banning of coned shotgun shells took place very quickly.  BTW, SASS members are quite conservative.  Make abrupt changes and many will leave.

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Posted (edited)

 

50 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

How many of the rule changes that we have made in the past 10 years are to correct safety issues? 

 

9 minutes ago, Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 said:

The banning of coned shotgun shells took place very quickly. 

 

That was more than a decade ago.

 

9 minutes ago, Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 said:

Make abrupt changes and many will leave.

 

or become vocal when their feelings get hurt because something wasn't implemented the way they thought it should.

 

 

 

@Creeker, SASS #43022

 

Two things that I also wonder about...

 

Do we need to begin looking at ways to compete in our game in an environment where we may be restricted on the use of lead ammunition?

 

Do we need to rethink how we categorize competitors?

Edited by Branchwater Jack SASS #88854

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Maybe a greenhorn class. Ruger Wranglers, Henry 22 and Mossberg maverick pump. All in on guns for about 1000 bucks

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50 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

Do we need to begin looking at ways to compete in our game in an environment where we may be restricted on the use of lead ammunition?

That's a good and timely point.  The lead issue is coming directly at us.  To a lot of us, it somehow would be strange to be shooting plastic bullets from our pre 1900 firearms.  But anything to keep going I guess. 

I wish somebody was doing truly objective research on aerosolized lead-- how much is actually produced, where it ends up, etc.  The science so far has all been funded from hysterical entities who desire to restrict the material.  Remember, all the lead came originally out of the Earth.  Nobody brought in a spaceship full -- at least not yet.  

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11 hours ago, Badlands Bob #61228 said:

I think a lot of gun clubs are in defensive mode.  Meaning, that they don't want to attract any undue attention from politicians or the Anti-Gun lobby.  When was the last time you saw a gun club advertise in the local paper or heard an advertisement on the radio about a outdoor range?  Even my home gun club has a sign at the entrance that says CGC.  Not Cherokee Gun Club.  Any advertising done is targeted very specifically at shooters through email lists and word of mouth.  Getting the word out to the public about shooting sports is a double edged sword.  The cost of extended civil litigation would bankrupt most gun clubs.  

 

How do you grow the sport in this environment, I'm all ears.

My experience has been a little different.  CAS shooting has somehow seemed to escape the anti-gun microscope.  Their vision seems to be that we use these archaic guns that aren't very dangerous, and loaded down ammunition that a person could catch the projectiles in their bare hand.  Our guns don't look as black and scary, or as military.  And we get to hitchhike on some nostalgia with the media and viewing public.  We've had media cover our annual event in the past.  It came our really positive.  I don't have the media video, but if Snakebite sees this, perhaps he can post it.  

 

I personally believe that our nostalgic cowboy image is enough to carry us through the gun arguments, unless we start visibly using the scarier looking and politically hyped/targeted semiautos.  That could change things. 

I could be wrong--often am.  

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4 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

Somebody sent me a p.m. saying my timing for a rule change committee process was off, and they very well could be right. I was just spitballing on the screen.

 

Their suggestion was that, if forming a rules committee the way I outlined it to look at the changes the rules, it would be good for the committee to have, at EOT, a forum, where people could discuss with the rules committee any of the proposed rule changes.

This is kind of what a lot of people would like to get away from in my opinion if I'm understanding you correctly. I don't see why EOT should have a bearing on the input of rule changes. Not everybody can go to EOT. I think the committee is a great idea. I just wouldn't limit the communication. All shooters want to feel like their opinion matters. That's not what we have now. This could be a golden opportunity to change that.

 

I feel there should be an open line of communication between the everyday club level shooter and the rule committee. If operated optimally, the rule committee could/should have no problem weeding out poorly thought out or misunderstandings of the rules if they consider them as they come in before being passed to the ROC. If however they wait 3 or 4 months much less a year to look at all of the propositions, they will surely face a backlog and that backlog would then be put to the ROC. 

 

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Hi all,

I've been watching the slow decline of SASS/CAS for a number of years now. There are many reasons; some we can change and some we can't. Many years ago, I went to a local club meeting and proposed putting in some local shooting categories that included less than the full compliment of firearms.  I supported these on a health and financial basis, but the local club leaders declined.  Maybe now is the time, though. Our membership is aging and that impacts endurance, manual dexterity, strength and joint condition, among other things.  Also, the economy isn't what it was during the heydays of SASS.  Budgets are tighter and the 4 gun outlay cost is rising.  To draw new members on a budget, and keep some of the older ones who just can't handle a bunch of 4 gun stages anymore, maybe some 2 and 3 gun categories should be formally introduced. Yes, I know some local clubs may do this, but I think SASS itself should formally address this as well. 

Also, I think the social aspect of SASS/CAS matches should be re-emphasized.  Meals afterwards at a local eatery, BBQ after a match, breakfast or lunch at a match, etc. Part of the great fun and draw for me especially in the early and middle years of my attending CAS matches was the get-together afterwards to eat and shoot the bull and exaggerate about how well (or poor!) one did at the match with other attendees! I remember more meal get-togethers afterwards now than the matches themselves! 

Also, this is one of the very few shooting sports that I can think of that wished to include the whole family (spouses and children), in the game in the past.  Perhaps that aspect needs to be re-emphasized again as well, as I see it's fallen by the wayside, atleast where I am. 

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9 minutes ago, Sacramento Johnson #6873 said:

Hi all,

I've been watching the slow decline of SASS/CAS for a number of years now. There are many reasons; some we can change and some we can't. Many years ago, I went to a local club meeting and proposed putting in some local shooting categories that included less than the full compliment of firearms.  I supported these on a health and financial basis, but the local club leaders declined.  Maybe now is the time, though. Our membership is aging and that impacts endurance, manual dexterity, strength and joint condition, among other things.  Also, the economy isn't what it was during the heydays of SASS.  Budgets are tighter and the 4 gun outlay cost is rising.  To draw new members on a budget, and keep some of the older ones who just can't handle a bunch of 4 gun stages anymore, maybe some 2 and 3 gun categories should be formally introduced. Yes, I know some local clubs may do this, but I think SASS itself should formally address this as well. 

Also, I think the social aspect of SASS/CAS matches should be re-emphasized.  Meals afterwards at a local eatery, BBQ after a match, breakfast or lunch at a match, etc. Part of the great fun and draw for me especially in the early and middle years of my attending CAS matches was the get-together afterwards to eat and shoot the bull and exaggerate about how well (or poor!) one did at the match with other attendees! I remember more meal get-togethers afterwards now than the matches themselves! 

Also, this is one of the very few shooting sports that I can think of that wished to include the whole family (spouses and children), in the game in the past.  Perhaps that aspect needs to be re-emphasized again as well, as I see it's fallen by the wayside, atleast where I am. 

It would be interesting to see how an overall score would ever be done with some categories not shooting the same stage.

Most of the shoots I go to, people get together afterward at a restaurant or something and talk about the lies of the day or the laughs we made. Sometimes it is another shooter that is inviting people. Sometimes its me. Your next shoot, just holler out, "Hey, any of y'all want to grab a bite?"

Works for me!

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Tennessee williams said:

It would be interesting to see how an overall score would ever be done with some categories not shooting the same stage.

 

Why do we need an overall?

Edited by Branchwater Jack SASS #88854
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31 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

Why do we need an overall?

Because it matters to quite a few people?

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Because it matters to quite a few people?

Can they still get what matters to them some other way without having an 'overall'?

 

 

Edited by Branchwater Jack SASS #88854

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40 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

Why do we need an overall?

Why don't we? I like to compare my shooting as a duelist to everyone else on the board. May not make sense to compare a one handed shooter to a two handed shooter to a lot of people, but that's how I make my comparison as to whether stuff I am practicing is working or not. I'm not out to just compete with other duelists. Are we to do away with overall state, regional, national, and world champions?

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Why don't we? I like to compare my shooting as a duelist to everyone else on the board. May not make sense to compare a one handed shooter to a two handed shooter to a lot of people, but that's how I make my comparison as to whether stuff I am practicing is working or not. I'm not out to just compete with other duelists. Are we to do away with overall state, regional, national, and world champions?

 

So let me get this straight. You can't compare yourself against other people without an 'overall'?

 

And, just for the record, SASS has, at different times, done away with the overall in multiple championship levels in multiple disciplines.

 

And, I'm not necessarily suggesting we do so here. However, if the barrier to opening up things that may be beneficial to the continued well being of this sport is the 'overall', why wouldn't we consider dropping it?

 

@Creeker, SASS #43022 Has a great point with this thread. if we are to examine this sport and look at things to help it continue to survive the next 40 years, we may need to let go of some of the perceptions of things that we think add value while finding and still holding on to those things that actually provide value and identity.

Edited by Branchwater Jack SASS #88854
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2 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

It would be interesting to see how an overall score would ever be done with some categories not shooting the same stage.

 

I have shot at some Iowa clubs that offer fewer than four gun categories, and at least at those clubs, they are scored separately since they are shooting fewer guns. If I remember the names correctly, they called them Sodbuster (rifle, shotgun), Working Cowboy (one pistol, rifle), and Range Detective (two pistols, one rifle). Not sure if it would work for SASS as a whole, but just passing on what I had observed at some shoots

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41 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

Can they still get what matters to them some other way without having an 'overall'?

 

 

Not for me no. Do away with that and I’ll shoot somewhere else, or switch to a different shooting discipline, maybe three gun.

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2 minutes ago, StirrupTrouble said:

I have shot at some Iowa clubs that offer fewer than four gun categories, and at least at those clubs, they are scored separately since they are shooting fewer guns. If I remember the names correctly, they called them Sodbuster (rifle, shotgun), Working Cowboy (one pistol, rifle), and Range Detective (two pistols, one rifle). Not sure if it would work for SASS as a whole, but just passing on what I had observed at some shoots

I think that is great at the club level. It MAY help people get involved. For state and above, I can't see it. Being scored separately helps too.

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Posted (edited)

The idea of more time together has been floated.  I'll go the opposite direction.  How about more options to shoot through?  Perhaps with an additional fee to make up for not doing posse chores. 

 

Many of our shooters are retired and spending a nice morning and afternoon shooting and then later eating and drinking with friends is what they want.  I don't think that's the case for all of our shooters though.  Younger shooters can be impatient with an entire day on the range, and those of us still raising children can struggle to allocate 4 or 5 days a month spent entirely at the range.  

Edited by Captain Bill Burt
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Posted (edited)

Not sure shoot through is a good idea, who spots, times picks up brass for them? I for one would be pissed if I had to do extra work for people who don't want to do duties. It's hard enough to get people to help out at shoots nowadays.

Rafe

Edited by Rafe Conager SASS #56958
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4 minutes ago, Rafe Conager SASS #56958 said:

Not sure shoot through is a good idea, who spots, times picks up brass for them? I for one would be pissed if I had to do extra work for people who don't want to do duties. It's hard enough to get people to help out at shoots nowadays.

Rafe

That’s why I suggested an extra fee, or maybe shoot throughs are lost brass matches. I’m not suggesting we do it, I’m suggesting it’s worthy of thought.

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Let me get this straight... The future of SASS is focusing on those that are aging...or don't have money.

 

Got it!

 

Oh, and let us all close our eyes and sing lalalalalala, don't want know who the overall winners are lalalalalala...

 

Wonderful.

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I'm very new to this sport, I'm still trying to get all my stuff together to shoot my fist match.  I'm 66 years old and I really would have liked to see a Stock category.  The price of 2 pistols ,leather,shotgun and rifle plus all the little stuff is steep but now I find out I need a Fedex or UPS account to ship every thing I just bought and now spend 50% or more to get my brand new firearms tuned just to be able to shoot.  Not to mention now I have another month or more to wait for my firearms and custom leather to come back to me.  I've been in various hobbies that in order to win you must spend and spend some more to stay on top.  I still believe this is going to be a hoot when everything comes back and the power burning begins.

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14 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Let me get this straight... The future of SASS is focusing on those that are aging...or don't have money.

 

Phantom is exactly right (often is).

The key to survival...

Actually, forget survival, the key to growth is "understanding" poor people can't support expensive hobbies.

 

And "most" older people can't/ don't participate in active movement hobbies.

 

Focusing on two demographics that can't afford or will not be around for long is a losing plan.

 

To grow; our game MUST invite and retain a younger shooter with disposable income.

 

To survive; and do so as the game we love - we must do the above while remaining a recognizable version of Cowboy Action Shooting.

 

To thrive; we must do all of the above - while at the same time better planning for the needed changes and growing pains the next 40 years will entail.

 

The next generation of SASS shooters are not going to accept, "Do it, because the Wild Bunch said so".

 

There will need to be transparent and understood conventions to the game, rules (and rules changes), a clear procedure for disputes and desired changes and a reason to stay beyond blind loyalty to a game or its founders.

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I think the future of our sport is advertising, get the word out how fun and family friendly this sport is, I know with uspsa and 3 gun the demographics are a lot more appealing to certain folks. My wife loves sass but has never completed in a match my young son enjoyed getting started until football and wrestling took so much time.

Rafe

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41 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Let me get this straight... The future of SASS is focusing on those that are aging...or don't have money.

 

Got it!

 

Oh, and let us all close our eyes and sing lalalalalala, don't want know who the overall winners are lalalalalala...

 

Wonderful.

That’s funny. I don’t care who you are :lol:

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2 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

So let me get this straight. You can't compare yourself against other people without an 'overall'?

No, I couldn't. I would need a score sheet with the fastest overall time on it as compared to the lowest overall time. The one with the lowest overall time is the overall match winner. You cant compare times with someone shooting 2 or 3 guns.

2 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

And, just for the record, SASS has, at different times, done away with the overall in multiple championship levels in multiple disciplines.

Why did they bring it back?

2 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

And, I'm not necessarily suggesting we do so here. However, if the barrier to opening up things that may be beneficial to the continued well being of this sport is the 'overall', why wouldn't we consider dropping it?

Hate to sound like an azz, but if you can't afford to eventually acquire the guns and stuff you need to participate in the pass time that is our sport you probably have other more important things to be spending your money on. Especially with the type people WE have. 99% of the people I know are more than willing to loan guns, etc until someone gets all their stuff. You don't HAVE to have the most expensive slicked up guns to participate.

 

I also hate to say this, but it is the truth if you want it. 

The single most often repeated reason I hear someone say they are not interested in shooting SASS is the dress. This is the same whether it is from a 3gun shooter, a trap shooter, or just people that love shooting in general. When you get below a certain age, people no longer have grown up watching westerns. They grew up watching other things so they don't have the urge to dress up as their favorite TV western personality to relive their childhood. Find a way to overcome that, and you have single handedly fixed a lax membership for years to come. Not saying I feel that way, mind you. I'm saying that thousands of others do.

 

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Posted (edited)

I’ve brought this up before a few times and didn’t get much traction with it so here goes. CAS for the most part is an older white persons sport, predominantly male. Living in Southern California there are large populations of Asians, Hispanics, Native Americans and African Americans. I can count on two hands the number of Asian shooters and Hispanic shooters in our sport down here. It only takes one hand to count African American participants, in fact there are none and I don’t believe I’ve ever met a Native American participant in SoCal.
 

If we believe that SASS is going to be kept alive by attracting young shooters I think we are fooling ourselves. So how do we go about marketing the sport to other racial groups? I’ve brought it up to some Hispanic pards that I shoot with and they tell me that attracting more of them to the sport is going to be tough because of the cost and the anti-gun upbringing that most of them had. 
 

 A few years ago when I was manning the gate up at EOT on the Monday before the main match an older African American couple came through and we visited a bit and I told them that today probably wasn’t the best day to see all that EOT had to offer because many of the vendors hadn’t arrived and those that had were still setting up and that none of the entertainment would be going on until later in the week. I invited them to go ahead and go on down and look around and they did and I would guess less than an hour they drove back up the hill and asked me what day would be best to come back and I told them Friday or Saturday and they thanked me and left.

 

That Friday morning the man came back through the gate and told me his wife wasn’t feeling well so he came by himself. He drove down to SASS town and about 3 hours later, I guess he came back up the hill and parked near the porta potty, used it and walked across the road to my “mansion on the hill” I call it. He introduced himself and I invited him to come in out of the sun and sit down in one of the extra chairs. He kept calling me Mr. Yul and I’d tell him it was just Yul but he did it anyway and he was older than me I’m sure. He asked me a lot of questions about SASS and CAS and he had a brochure and he told me that when he was a kid they never had a TV and that he had never seen a western movie. He told me that he’d never watched a television show until he got out of the Navy and he was in his mid 20’s! I of course was incredulous because my family had always had a TV as long as I can remember. I asked him how we could attract more African Americans to the sport and he told me that that would be tough because they weren’t brought up watching cowboys and Indians shows on TV. He told me that when he started watching TV the only black man on TV was Rochester on the Jack Benny show. He said he didn’t watch westerns because they didn’t interest him. I asked him if he was going to get involved and start shooting with local groups and he said he doubted that he would because of the cost and he didn’t know if he’d fit in. I encouraged him to visit a few local matches and there would be people there that would be glad to let him use match guns, leather and ammo until he could get set up. We probably talked for a couple of hours and we shook hands and he left. I don’t know if he went to any matches or not.
 

In my opinion, if we don’t change the old, white male makeup of SASS it won’t survive. How we do that I don’t know but thinking SASS salvation is coming solely from attracting younger shooters is not realistic. Kids don’t want to play our game and they darned sure don’t want to dress the part. 

Edited by Yul Lose
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Of course, no matter what else happens, we have to be sure that we don't start eating our own young as we go through this process.

 

We can't afford to lose too many more people that are already shooting

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Posted (edited)

Create two divisions.  Call our present sport “Original CAS” until a better name is found, and create “Introductory CAS” to attract those who can’t yet afford all 4 firearms.  Let them shoot the monthly matches and regionals and even Winter Range and EOT with what they have: 1 or 2 revolvers, or just a rifle, or just a shotgun, or any combination thereof.  Provide some kind of recognition for their efforts and they will be hooked!  I really would not mind following a shooter who used only a .38 DA revolver, and who wore jeans and a long sleeved shirt to respect the costume guidelines.  I would not be competing against him...I would be in a different division.  Getting those shooters on the ranges rubbing elbows with the rest of us will bring them in.

Edited by J-BAR #18287
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Posted (edited)

With all due respect to all who advocate getting younger shooters involved in SASS, I think you are barking up the wrong tree. Do you realize what movies today’s younger adults are watching ? Do you even care?

 

They are watching John Wick, Mission Impossible, the Marvel Universe—none of these have anything to do with cowboy guns. Heck, John Wick doesn’t even use “normal” semi-automatic rifles and pistols.

 

I was just watching a couple of gun shows on the Outdoor Channel the other night. The first one, a guy is touting a red dot laser while saying, “You know, revolvers are archaic…” Obviously, he thinks the future of firearms (and shooters by default) doesn’t include revolvers. The second show I watched had a pistol caliber semi-auto carbine competition. It looked like a lot fun and if I wasn’t 69 and had artificial knees, I would like to try it. But then again, everyone shooting it seemed to be 40 or younger. This is what SASS is up against if you want younger shooters. SASS guns just aren’t interesting to young people and no matter how much and how long you say they will come to the sport, it doesn’t matter. Unless you include a category where a person can shoot an AR platform rifle or carbine, and a tricked out 9mm semi-auto pistol, you are just not going to pull any sizable amount of these people into the sport.

 

And as for keeping SASS going for another 40 years, wake up and smell the coffee. The way things are going in the US right now, Americans will be lucky to be able to own a single shot rifle in 40 years, much less be in a competition shooting game. You’d better off trying to figure out how to keep SASS going for the next ten years, than worrying about four decades into a very uncertain future.

 

I know I’ll get blasted for this post, I expect it.

 

It seems to me that the people who are totally against many of the suggestions made here; less than four guns, no overall winner, trying to retain older, more income limited, people, etc, talk a lot about making changes, but essentially saying, “Great, let’s make changes, but don’t change what I like to do.”

 

Edited by Innocent Bystander SASS #24171
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31 minutes ago, Innocent Bystander SASS #24171 said:

With all due respect to all who advocate getting younger shooters involved in SASS, I think you are barking up the wrong tree. Do you realize what movies today’s younger adults are watching ? Do you even care?

 

They are watching John Wick, Mission Impossible, the Marvel Universe—none of these have anything to do with cowboy guns. Heck, John Wick doesn’t even use “normal” semi-automatic rifles and pistols.

 

I was just watching a couple of gun shows on the Outdoor Channel the other night. The first one, a guy is touting a red dot laser while saying, “You know, revolvers are archaic…” Obviously, he thinks the future of firearms (and shooters by default) doesn’t include revolvers. The second show I watched had a pistol caliber semi-auto carbine competition. It looked like a lot fun and if I wasn’t 69 and had artificial knees, I would like to try it. But then again, everyone shooting it seemed to be 40 or younger. This is what SASS is up against if you want younger shooters. SASS guns just aren’t interesting to young people and no matter how much and how long you say they will come to the sport, it doesn’t matter. Unless you include a category where a person can shoot an AR platform rifle or carbine, and a tricked out 9mm semi-auto pistol, you are just not going to pull any sizable amount of these people into the sport.

 

And as for keeping SASS going for another 40 years, wake up and smell the coffee. The way things are going in the US right now, Americans will be lucky to be able to own a single shot rifle in 40 years, much less be in a competition shooting game. You’d better off trying to figure out how to keep SASS going for the next ten years, than worrying about four decades into a very uncertain future.

 

I know I’ll get blasted for this post, I expect it.

 

It seems to me that the people who are totally against many of the suggestions made here; less than four guns, no overall winner, trying to retain older, more income limited, people, etc, talk a lot about making changes, but essentially saying, “Great, let’s make changes, but don’t change what I like to do.”

 

Judging a market's existence based on movies consumed and a couple of TV shows that you've recently seen might be a little weak in estimating the existence/quality/strength of a market.

 

What about old cars? Do young people like them? They're archaic...

 

Adding equipment categories to squeeze the last dying breath out of the elderly population or squeezing the last cent out of someone with very little disposable income will be a short lived solution at best... But... Than again your cynical view of SASS and shooting sports in general makes it understandable why you would take the position you have.

 

Phantom

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