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Totes Magoats

Rules Question - Unsupported / unassisted

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Does a young shooter have to shoot a stage without support or assistance from another (parent for example) to avoid a penalty?  

  • Example 1:  Young shooter has a hard time breaking open a shotgun and if they require assistance from another shooter to break it open, is there a scoring penalty assessed?  
  • Example 2: if a young shooter requires assistance supporting a long gun, can another shooter safely assist holding up the rifle to help clear a prop or table without a penalty?

 

I am asking about state or higher matches?  What can the TO allow, not allow?

 

Totes

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What have you found in the shooters handbook?

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A couple of things.  

First, I would allow any shooter the help they need to be safe.  But, you have to ask yourself, is it really safe to have a shooter handling guns they can't  manipulate themselves?

 

Second, they really need to have the shotgun worked up so that it drops open and the lever is easy to open.  It would be worthwhile to get a good Cowboy Gunsmith involved.  Stocks need to be cut down to fit the shooter's current stature, regardless if they might outgrow it in a year.  Yep, it can be darn expensive.

 

Another question, you have to ask if the shooter isn't maybe too young to be competing yet.  Age isn't always about years.

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As a TO; I am there to safely assist the shooter thru the stage (their age is immaterial).

If a shooter was having difficulty supporting their firearm or clearing a prop - I would certainly and ALWAYS assist.

I have done this for juniors, seniors and all ages in between when a physical condition (strength, endurance or medical) causes a difficulty in safely completing the stage.

 

Equipment difficulties are EXACTLY the same.

I have broken open SxS shotguns with sticky firing pins when the shooter was unable.

I have reached over and pushed the bolt closed and the carrier up on 97 shotguns when shooters short stroke them and lock up the action. 

I have advanced cylinders with high primers and pushed cylinder pins back in.

 

The shooter who has equipment challenges to the extent they need the assistance of the TO has already had a bad match; no chance they are winning, but at least they get to finish.

 

There is absolutely ZERO reason for the TO to stand there doing nothing and make the day even worse.

 

Shooters age is immaterial.

Match level is immaterial.

 

Choosing to do the right thing is almost always the right choice.

 

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3 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

As a TO; I am there to safely assist the shooter thru the stage (their age is immaterial).

If a shooter was having difficulty supporting their firearm or clearing a prop - I would certainly and ALWAYS assist.

I have done this for juniors, seniors and all ages in between when a physical condition (strength, endurance or medical) causes a difficulty in safely completing the stage.

 

Equipment difficulties are EXACTLY the same.

I have broken open SxS shotguns with sticky firing pins when the shooter was unable.

I have reached over and pushed the bolt closed and the carrier up on 97 shotguns when shooters short stroke them and lock up the action. 

I have advanced cylinders with high primers and pushed cylinder pins back in.

 

The shooter who has equipment challenges to the extent they need the assistance of the TO has already had a bad match; no chance they are winning, but at least they get to finish.

 

There is absolutely ZERO reason for the TO to stand there doing nothing and make the day even worse.

 

Shooters age is immaterial.

Match level is immaterial.

 

Choosing to do the right thing is almost always the right choice.

 

But to go into a State or Higher match knowing that the young (whatever that means), shooter will need assistance is a completely different question.

 

So...when we give a State or Higher award out for these "young" shooters, is it a team award?

 

Phantom

 

 

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1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

But to go into a State or Higher match knowing that the young (whatever that means), shooter will need assistance is a completely different question.

 

So...when we give a State or Higher award out for these "young" shooters, is it a team award?

 

Phantom

 

 

 

I guess the same question could be asked ANYTIME a shooter (of any age) is assisted by the TO.

 

I don't know Phantom personally. 

But I do know he believes in this game (and the ideals behind this game) and plays this game with the same level of passion as I do.

 

And I honestly think he would be among the first to step up to defend a shooter whose performance was denigrated by someone else claiming that the TO assisting (verbally - one more, target still up, your hammer is down, NO - move to the window, etc.  Or was handed a screw knife or given a steadying hand sliding to a stop) - diminishes their award placement because they had a "team".

 

The red herring in this question is the caveat of "young shooter".

Take age out of the equation and the answer becomes obvious.

 

We are encouraged to make any reasonable allowances for elderly or infirm shooters.

 

We invite and encourage physically challenged shooters to play our game at EVERY level with whatever level of assistance is required.

 

I'm (and I sincerely believe Phantom feels the same) not going to begrudge a shooter (regardless of age/ regardless of match) because they require assistance.

Even if it's every stage - every gun.

And IF they were to somehow happen to win - in whatever form that win could possibly be...

More power to them.

 

I am adamant because I have been on both ends of this question.

When my daughter, Desert Scorpion, began this game and we struggled with child sized beginners guns.  

And yes, comments were made and opinions shared with me regarding...

But without fairly regular assistance and accommodation; she would have quickly became frustrated and unwilling to play and I would have missed out on years with my shooting partner.

 

When my dear friend, Know Justice neared the end of this game and he struggled with even the simple act of walking.  Supporting long guns or loading the shotgun was always a two man event.

And yes, comments were made and opinions shared with me regarding...

But without regular assistance and accommodation; he would have quickly become frustrated and unwilling to play and I would had missed out on the all too short final months with my shooting partner.

 

The slim possibility of an assist or a team affecting a shooters placement is far outweighed by the value of having those shooters there.

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There can be huge differences in size (and thereby strength & dexterity), among the Buckaroo/ette & Junior shooters.  Just as there are wide variances among adult shooters.    The age for Buckaroo/ette & Junior shooters are, IMO, guidelines.   Just because a potential shooter is 8 years old doesn't mean they have the physical stature and strength to safely manipulate the firearms.  Mom, Dad... here's an opportunity for you to show off your parenting skills.    And if Mom or Dad need help in determining if their young offspring are capable... that's within my purview as a TO.  But, if Mom or Dad doesn't want to be the bad guy... and leaves it up to the TO... maybe Mom & Dad aren't grown up enough to participate either.

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My last post allowed to sink in for a few seconds... I will relate that generally, I'll ask Mom or Dad, (Gramps or whatever), to assist their young charge thru the course of fire.  I'll run the timer and be vigilant for potential safety infractions that can be forestalled... but "Dad" is going to do the physical labor if it comes to that.

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We started our grandsons at the age of seven.  That said - and this is just my personal opinion - I don't think 1) a State-or-above cowboy match is the place to learn to handle guns;  and 2) children should compete before they are able to handle guns themselves.  And, by the way parents:  prepare your child for the stage BEFORE it comes to the firing line.  I was always so impressed with Grandson #1 - he was not so fast, but from his first match, he just walked up to the line & shot the stage.  Grandson #2 needed a little more coaching but he always got it before he went to the line.  It's just good range etiquette.

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As a TO, I have literally held a shooter up by his suspenders who would otherwise be unable to compete I’ve pushed those in wheelchairs at times when it was needed and I’ve helped those who have lost their place or become confused. It is our job as TOS to safely assist the shooter through the stage. 

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This hits close to home for me. My youngest is 9 and just starting out. He had his first match in February and has 9 under his belt so far. He’s pretty strong for his age but not very tall. He can handle the rifle and pistols without much, if any, help though towards the end of a rifle string the muzzle may start to sag a bit. I’m still very selective about who runs the timer for him, generally only me or a couple of people I know will be on top of things.

 

What he can’t do is manage the shotgun yet, too heavy, too long, and too hard to get high enough off the table to open it fully. He skips it and takes the penalties. If he needs help he gets it, with no complaints from anyone.

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When Kaya started out we were blessed with folks that took it upon themselves to help her enjoy the game. I am forever grateful to those folks for saying "Back off dad. We got this." and they did a wonderful job. Because of them I now have a great shooting buddy. 

I'll do the same to pay that back.

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I have the same feelings about helping others through a stage and I really enjoy seeing young shooters start their journey into Cowboy action shooting.  We have seen a number of young shooters at our local club and we all help to ensure they safely enjoy our game at the monthly matches.

 

I just want to ensure, as a T.O. at a state or higher match, I am being fair and equally applying the rules across the board.

 

I would hate to hear at the banquet that a young man or young lady lost to another shooter because the TO allowed mom or dad to prop up the rifle and open/shuck the shotgun shells for the young shooter.

 

There is no clear indication in the shooter's handbook addressing this.  There are only general statements that are open to interpretation regarding firearm handling skills.  Maybe the best bet is to ask the MD of the match and get their ruling.

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I gotta say I like everyone saying they don't mind helping 

and are grateful for the help givin to young shooters..

and also help to us older shooters that need assistance.. 

I'd back them 100%..

 

The original question??

Assisting a young shooter at a "State or above" match??

I reckon I'm in the camp that if the shooter is so small/young

that they need that much assistance.. Your getting into safety issues..

I feel the parents should NOT have put their youngster

in a " State and Above" match.. They (the parents) are possibly

endangerin the whole posse or match..

Local match?? Go for it..:)

 

Rance ;)

Thinkin I feel my ears burnin.. :rolleyes:

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 I suspect most parents of buckaroos or buckerettes know what their child’s abilities are and when they’re most vulnerable on stage. In Kid Flash’s case shot guns are a no-no right now, and he is most vulnerable when transferring his left pistol to his right hand. I stay on top of that and if anyone else is running the timer I ask them to pay particular attention to it. He’ll be shooting Florida State this weekend and I don’t anticipate any problems or hold ups.

 

In his case if he beats an adult there will be more to it than a little assistance with his rifle, though he did shoot a 10-10 a few weeks ago in 20 seconds, plus 20 for the shotgun misses.

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Kaya never shot a match until she could handle the guns herself. 

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My grandson just turned 8 and enjoys shooting.  I haven't started him on Cowboy as yet. I might introduce him to a monthly match, but would not consider any other match if he could not properly handle the firearms himself. Safety should be first and foremost. 

 

BS

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13 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

This hits close to home for me. My youngest is 9 and just starting out. He had his first match in February and has 9 under his belt so far. He’s pretty strong for his age but not very tall. He can handle the rifle and pistols without much, if any, help though towards the end of a rifle string the muzzle may start to sag a bit. I’m still very selective about who runs the timer for him, generally only me or a couple of people I know will be on top of things.

 

What he can’t do is manage the shotgun yet, too heavy, too long, and too hard to get high enough off the table to open it fully. He skips it and takes the penalties. If he needs help he gets it, with no complaints from anyone.

 

Have you thought of a short single shot shotgun that auto ejects?

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32 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

Have you thought of a short single shot shotgun that auto ejects?

Kaya started with a .410. She was getting to be pretty good with it. The TO and any unsuspecting spotters might get an empty right between the eyes if they weren't careful. She took great pleasure in that.....

I made her shells out of .444 Marlin brass. 12.5 grains H110, red Winchester wad and shot to fill the cup. I cut the over shot cards out with a .44 Mag shell I chucked in a drill. Glued them in with Elmers.

She misses using that gun. 

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1 hour ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

Have you thought of a short single shot shotgun that auto ejects?

I’m still considering that. I have one in the safe. I’m concerned about recoil primarily. It would be lighter than a double, but obviously there would be more perceived recoil.  Eddie has offered to load shotgun shells for him so we’re going to have a look at the shotgun, see how Kid Flash feels about using it and may cut the barrel and stock down so he can use it.

 

OTH, we may let him get more comfortable with his rifle and pistols, get 20-30 more matches under his belt then start him with the SKB I have set aside for him. My 13 year old is almost ready for a bigger stock on his so we could just swap out the stocks and KF would have a short LOP and a nice rubber pad while the Iron Cowboy would have his same SKB but with a LOP more appropriate for a kid with a 70-71 wingspan and growing.

 

IC is 5’8” now but if he keeps going at this pace he’ll be pushing 6’ by this time next year.

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3 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I’m still considering that. I have one in the safe. I’m concerned about recoil primarily. It would be lighter than a double, but obviously there would be more perceived recoil.  Eddie has offered to load shotgun shells for him so we’re going to have a look at the shotgun, see how Kid Flash feels about using it and may cut the barrel and stock down so he can use it.

 

OTH, we may let him get more comfortable with his rifle and pistols, get 20-30 more matches under his belt then start him with the SKB I have set aside for him. My 13 year old is almost ready for a bigger stock on his so we could just swap out the stocks and KF would have a short LOP and a nice rubber pad while the Iron Cowboy would have his same SKB but with a LOP more appropriate for a kid with a 70-71 wingspan and growing.

 

IC is 5’8” now but if he keeps going at this pace he’ll be pushing 6’ by this time next year.

Why don't you bring it to Florida.

I know several Cowboys that we could bum some SG shells from for KF to try.

LIGHT LOADS.

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I would have to get it cut first and unfortunately I don’t think I’ll have time to get that done between now and Thursday. I will bring it though, just in case. Look forward to chatting with you!

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PLUS ONE to Creeker  :D

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15 hours ago, Barry Sloe said:

My grandson just turned 8 and enjoys shooting.  I haven't started him on Cowboy as yet. I might introduce him to a monthly match, but would not consider any other match if he could not properly handle the firearms himself. Safety should be first and foremost. 

 

BS

looking forward to meeting you this week at Comancheria Days.  We are on the same posse! 

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2 hours ago, Hoss said:

looking forward to meeting you this week at Comancheria Days.  We are on the same posse! 

My better half and I are looking forward to it.  We'll see you at the range.

 

BS

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2 hours ago, Hoss said:

looking forward to meeting you this week at Comancheria Days.  We are on the same posse! 

Barry Sloe is a good pard to ride range with! His wife is even a better choice:lol:!

Hope you enjoy Texas BS !

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2 hours ago, Captain Clark said:

Barry Sloe is a good pard to ride range with! His wife is even a better choice:lol:!

Hope you enjoy Texas BS !

CC, Thank you for the kind words.  I hope that I live up to them. 

 

BS

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