Grinnin Jim Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 Hey all, I just bought a 1911 so I can venture into some Wild Bunch matches and now need some reloading info for it. I am presently using TiteGroup for my .38 special and would like to stick with one powder but I don't mind changing from TiteGroup because I find it a little dirty! Also I am planning to get some 200 grain RNFP from Wiamea. What are your suggestions??? Thanks in Advance Grinnin' Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Rick Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 I just loaded up a sample pack (100 bullets) from Missouri Bullet - the 200 gr RN flat base (.45 OddBall) over some Clays. I'll let ya know after this coming weekend how they perform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totes Magoats Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 As you work up a load, don't load a large number of bullets. Too light and the gun won't cycle. Make sure you make power factor and the gun should cycle fine. I load with Bullseye for all my Wild Bunch ammo, but have used Trail Boss and Clays as well. After you find the load you like, load a BUNCH OF AMMO, cause you gonna love Wild Bunch!! Totes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goody, SASS #26190 Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 My suggestion is you log into the Wild Bunch Forum. There is a reloading tab, and unlike here specific load data may be shared on line. https://www.sassnet.com/wildbunch/forum/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack, SASS #20451 Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 Goody gives good advice. I will say thought that the majority of WBAS shooters use 230grain bullets. Many pistol powders work fine in the 45ACP but in my opinion and that of many other really successful competitors shooting 45ACP Winchester WST is the best powder. I use Titegroup in 9mm with great success but prefer WST for 45ACP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Dick, SASS #12880 Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 Ditto what Happy Jack said. I use 230 gr lrn and Winchester WST. The starting load in Hodgdon's online data center for WST and the 230gr bullet will easily make power factor. Most shooters find that with the heavier bullet (230 vs 200) loaded to the same power factor, felt recoil with the 230 is more of a push than the snap of the 200 grain bullet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 I really like my 200 grain (lead) bullets over Winchester WST. But, a 200 grain slug will work fairly well with TiteGroup, too. TiteGroup weight will have to be reduced below Hodgdon's starting point to keep the PF at 160 or so, however. It's just a little too slow a powder to be ideal in .45 auto lead bullet loads. Look at the loading data at Hodgdon and put in enough powder between their starting load and max load to make 800 FPS - which gives you enough velocity to safely make the minimum 150 Power Factor. Either powder has enough range to work well with the 200 grain bullet you have chosen. At 150+ power factor, most stock 1911s will cycle the slide and run. They will do better though if you swap out the mainspring (coil spring contained in the main spring housing of the grip) with a lighter mainspring (factory is 23 pounds, I run a 19 pound and get easier slide retraction and better trigger pull). Recoil spring can be dropped from 16 pounds to 15 pounds safely, too. Because factory ammo that the factory springs were selected to handle runs almost 190 power factor. A good throating job and proper OAL is important, as well as GAUGING all .45 auto ammo you load. Just a little misalignment of the bullet as it is seated or too small a bell on the expanded case can result in a round that fails to chamber completely. Hodgdon on-line data (for both TiteGroup and WST) can be found: http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/ Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badlands Bob #61228 Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 I load the 200 gr. bullets over Tite Group powder. My power factor is about 160. I found that I have better feeding with the coated bullets. My Kimber 1911 just doesn't like lead only bullets. I've been using the bullets from Mustang Dave at the Red River Bullet Co. Overall length is going to be very important. Make sure you have a reliable combination before you load a bucket full. http://redriverbullets.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefro, SASS#69420 Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 I prefer the same 200gr RNFP that I use in 45 Colt and C45S with Red Dot. Good Luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 WW231/HP-38 powder was created by Winchester for the .45acp. IMHO-It's still the best choice, with Unique a close second. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 http://stevespages.com/451_1.html http://reloadammo.com/45loads.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACKFOOT SASS #11947 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 I'm in the 200 grain camp, use them in .45acp and .45 Colt. Red Dot has done it well for me with no complaints. Blackfoot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostVaquero Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 I use trailboss powder. I can use the same amount of powder in my 38s with 125g as 45acp with 200 or 230g. I use small primer 45acps and thus do not have to change powder settings or primer tube and feed just shell plate and dies. Simple = less to go wrong at least for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crisco Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 I stick with either 230LRN or 200LSWC and life is good. I tried to use a bunch of 200RNFP a while back and never found a length that was reliable in any one of my 1911's. Unique, 231, and Red Dot are all great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZAD Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 I have good success with 700x, w231 and bullseye for lighter target loads. This is all with a summer 200g swc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pill Roller, SASS #77160 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 What Garrison Joe said gauging is important. We gauge all our rounds, 45 acp. 45 colt, 9 mm and 38 spl. May be overkill but don't run into many problems. We load .45 acp with clays either 235 or 230 gr rn Knotty Lady and Pill roller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvertip Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 I have used the 200gr rnfp with bothTitegroup and Clays got great accuracy and velocity, give the Titegroup a chance I think you will like it . Silver Tip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Cent Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 "I prefer the same 200gr RNFP that I use in 45 Colt and C45S with Red Dot. Good Luck" What Jefro said. Except I use 45 Colt. Years ago, John Moses Browning came up with a bunch of ideas. For instance, the firing pin stop. Where the slide strikes the FPS, the original radius was 5/64ths". Our doughboys had a tough time cycling the slide so Uncle Sam made him increase the radius. ADDED FELT RECOIL! With a 1/16th (EGW) radius the reduction in recoil is noticeable. The short (kinda sharp) radius slows the slide a tad. The mainspring should be as stout as the slide can stand. Besides cocking the hammer, it slows the slide down. Lightens the smack of the slide and reduces felt recoil. The recoil/reaction spring also needs to be strong enough to chamber a round. Unless one cannot load good 45 ACP ammo. Then one buys a 40# spring to mask the problem of the round not fully chambering. A heavy recoil spring will cause the front sight to dip when the pistol goes into battery. And the 1911 was not built to withstand a heavier recoil spring. Do you know what stops the slide from blowing off the frame? Load very good 45 ACP ammo. Put a 12# recoil spring in the pistol. Leave the factory hammer spring. Install an oversize FPS (EGW). Get the trigger down to at least 4#. No creep. Feel the goodness. http://www.egwguns.com/index.php?p=catalog&mode=search&search_str=firing+pin+stop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubious Don #56333 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 On 4/2/2018 at 11:51 AM, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said: I really like my 200 grain (lead) bullets over Winchester WST. But, a 200 grain slug will work fairly well with TiteGroup, too. TiteGroup weight will have to be reduced below Hodgdon's starting point to keep the PF at 160 or so, however. It's just a little too slow a powder to be ideal in .45 auto lead bullet loads. Look at the loading data at Hodgdon and put in enough powder between their starting load and max load to make 800 FPS - which gives you enough velocity to safely make the minimum 150 Power Factor. Either powder has enough range to work well with the 200 grain bullet you have chosen. At 150+ power factor, most stock 1911s will cycle the slide and run. They will do better though if you swap out the mainspring (coil spring contained in the main spring housing of the grip) with a lighter mainspring (factory is 23 pounds, I run a 19 pound and get easier slide retraction and better trigger pull). Recoil spring can be dropped from 16 pounds to 15 pounds safely, too. Because factory ammo that the factory springs were selected to handle runs almost 190 power factor. A good throating job and proper OAL is important, as well as GAUGING all .45 auto ammo you load. Just a little misalignment or too small a bell on the expanded case can result in a round that fails to chamber completely. Hodgdon on-line data (for both TiteGroup and WST) can be found: http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/ Good luck, GJ 23 pounds? You sure of that Joe? Supposed to be though seems like every newfangled 1911 has 'light'springs that ain't no 23 pounds har-har, LOL. I use a 200gr RNFP in front of Trailboss, give me about 800fps. Even in my non-cas/1911's it runs good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 41 minutes ago, Dubious Don #56333 said: (Factory Mainspring is) 23 pounds? You sure of that Joe? Yep. Yep. and Yep. As sure as I am of anything. Per Kuhnhausen manual. Here's Wilson Combat page with 1911 mainsprings. https://shopwilsoncombat.com/Hammer-Springs/products/88/ The stock number for their "factory USGI mainspring" is R16A. 1/3 way down page. Quote Hammer Spring, USGI Style, Full-Size, 23 Lb. 23 pounds. JM Browning called that item the mainspring, Wilson calls it the hammer spring. Same-o same-o. Now, sorta sounds like you are thinking of RECOIL spring. The factory weight on a Gov't model for recoil spring is 16 pounds. With a lighter mainspring, I am careful to lower the slide when showing empty, not drop the slide hard. It's never good on a 1911 to drop slide hard on an empty chamber; it's even more likely to chip a sear or hammer notch if you have a lighter mainspring. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grinnin Jim Posted April 4, 2018 Author Share Posted April 4, 2018 Wow, Got some great information here!!! Thanks guys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostVaquero Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 Gee after all this I feel bad taking my $400 Taurus 1911 and cheap reloads. So no jams, misdeeds, and each goes bang each time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubious Don #56333 Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 18 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said: Yep. Yep. and Yep. As sure as I am of anything. Per Kuhnhausen manual. Here's Wilson Combat page with 1911 mainsprings. https://shopwilsoncombat.com/Hammer-Springs/products/88/ The stock number for their "factory USGI mainspring" is R16A. 1/3 way down page. 23 pounds. JM Browning called that item the mainspring, Wilson calls it the hammer spring. Same-o same-o. Now, sorta sounds like you are thinking of RECOIL spring. The factory weight on a Gov't model for recoil spring is 16 pounds. With a lighter mainspring, I am careful to lower the slide when showing empty, not drop the slide hard. It's never good on a 1911 to drop slide hard on an empty chamber; it's even more likely to chip a sear or hammer notch if you have a lighter mainspring. Good luck, GJ LOL, no I wasn't confusing it with the recoil spring, I was making a joke about 23lb's being "standard" . Yes 23 pounds is the standard "supposed to be" but these days, who knows unless you measure it. Lightening the hammer spring is the surest way to get a better trigger pull. Of course the hammer spring and recoil spring work in concert so they's gotta be sorta matched too. But there's enough fudge in the system's design I think we make too much of some things. Use what works! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 Well, Colt (they probably know a few things about 1911s) use 23 pounds as the factory mainspring weight in their full sized 1911s. That is the only size of the 1911 that works for WB. So, in the context of the OP's question talking about getting together a load that works for 1911s for WB, the "standard" spring weight in those full size 1911s really is a standard. IF this thread were meant to cover all types and variations from micro size up to supersized 1911s, we wouldn't be discussing it here in the SASS wire, and we wouldn't be wondering if there was a standard weight or length main spring. We'd be chatting and fun-ing about all those other weights and sizes of springs as shown on the Wilson Combat catalog page that I cited. Oh, and yes, the concept that the shooter needs to use what works was already covered Quote I run a 19 pound and get easier slide retraction and better trigger pull I recognize that for WB 1911s there is a standard, but I made an informed decision when I parted ways with that for a "game-only" 1911 setup.. I don't think I would shoot a large amount of factory ammo though that 1911 without going back to heavier springs. So, have a great day DD! GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grinnin Jim Posted April 5, 2018 Author Share Posted April 5, 2018 So this brings in another question, should I get a 19# mainspring??? They are cheap enough and and I probably wont be shooting factory ammo! Grinnin' Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 Quote should I get a 19# mainspring Well, shoot the gun you buy for 500 rounds or more. Break it in. More importantly, figure out how you want to load ammo, bullet shape and weight, powder you like, does the load shoot accurately, chamber 100% of time and leave the gun fairly clean. See what leads to bobbles or irritates you about how it behaves. Compare how your gun shoots to another WB competitor's gun of the same model. Most folks will have an action job done on a gun to be used seriously for competition and games. Some big wins if you start tuning a gun for WB - debur and smooth anything sharp or interfering with function (including the deep bored hole in which the mainspring lies in the mainspring housing). smooth and profiled feed ramp and rear edge of chamber accurate fit on the locking lugs and at barrel bushing tight but low drag slide to slide rail fit trigger set to 4 pounds and very crisp perhaps a lowered ejection port a light mag release button spring perhaps tuning the hammer spur (if it bites you) sights that work well for you perhaps replacing arched mainspring housing with a straight housing (depends on your hand shape and size) funneling the mag well for faster and reliable mag insertions checking and adjusting extractor tension lightening up springs (now that the gun is broken in and deburred, lighter springs may be used without having to worry about burrs and too-tight parts fit which are reasons the factory puts in stronger springs than what you may want for the type of ammo you want to load) Be sure your finished gun will not exceed weight limits in the rules. When you are ready for the major tuneup and setup for WB, think about if you want to respring it lighter. That way, the smith doing the action work can make sure you have the gun tuned to handle that lighter spring. Usually both the recoil AND mainspring are "matched" so they work well together - because the mainspring is soaking up a lion's share of the rearward slide energy, then the compressed recoil spring drives the slide forward (with some more energy from recoil) to strip a bullet, feed the round and drive slide into battery. They probably won't be the same weight - mainspring weight is almost always heavier than recoil spring by 3-6 pounds. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grinnin Jim Posted April 5, 2018 Author Share Posted April 5, 2018 Great info Garrison Joe!!! Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 A rule of thumb that seems to hold true for me. Your mainspring and recoil spring set are too heavy if most of the fired cases fall within 1 yard of you or you leave fired cases in the gun (stovepipes, crossed-case jam). And they are too light for your load if the fired cases throw more than 4 yards from you. Some more troubleshooting - The ejection port needs to be relieved if you ding up the mouth on more than 10% of the cases. The extractor needs more tension if it fails this test: you take slide off gun, pop a loaded round up onto the bolt face so the extractor holds it, and you can shake the round loose with a snap of the wrist. Less tension is needed, or the hook of extractor isn't shaped well, if rounds don't get all the way up on the bolt face when you try to chamber a round. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LAST CHANCE Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 230gr RN. Easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Rick Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 I got a little busy before the start of our Wild Bunch side match so didn't participate. Will have to try them out here at home when I get the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Junky Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 The 230's feed great and in WB you have to make power factor so shooting a lighter bullet isn't going to help with recoil because you still have to drive it faster to get the same power factor as the 230 going slower. I haven't had a 1911 that wouldn't shoot my 230 round nose loads...... PS when you shoot yer' first match you'll be amazed at how many folks don't have pistol that'll feed their ammo...........keep it simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grinnin Jim Posted April 10, 2018 Author Share Posted April 10, 2018 4 hours ago, Cowboy Junky said: The 230's feed great and in WB you have to make power factor so shooting a lighter bullet isn't going to help with recoil because you still have to drive it faster to get the same power factor as the 230 going slower. I haven't had a 1911 that wouldn't shoot my 230 round nose loads...... PS when you shoot yer' first match you'll be amazed at how many folks don't have pistol that'll feed their ammo...........keep it simple. After reading all the comments and my experiences with the 1911 (my favorite pistol in the world) I'm going with a 230 gr coated bullet and over tight group. I also have bullseye and Unique on my shelf that needs to be used up as well so I may throw them in the mix!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 G Jim - PLEASE remove the load specifics from your post. That post is "publishing your loading data", which you are not supposed to do on the SASS wire. (Because it might encourage someone to load with data that is not from a reliable source). Thanks, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Dick, SASS #12880 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 On 4/2/2018 at 8:36 PM, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: WW231/HP-38 powder was created by Winchester for the .45acp. IMHO-It's still the best choice, with Unique a close second. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bart Solo Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 I use HP38 and 200 grain round nose bullets. Don't forget to run all of your bullets through a case gauge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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