WTC- False Start

[Short Term Emory]

What, if any, is the penalty for shooter starting a split second before the beep? Start position was "rifle in hands" and shooter just started to lever right before the timer went off. I can't seem to find anything in the books. 

Thanks in advance. 

[Cassalong Hopidy]

Did the shooter continue by shooting the stage or was he restarted?  Was this a one time occurrence?  I presume the stage instructions required the shooter to refrain from starting to engage the stage before the buzzer sounded.

[Short Term Emory]

It was a 1 time occurrence. Shooter was fast enough the TO could not stop him to restart. Shooter completed the stage and then spotters brought it to the attention of the TO. 

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

P-10 seconds. Engaging the stage (firearms, targets, or maneuvers) in an order other than as required by the stage description. Stage description usually says; "after the beep" Good Luck

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

10 minutes ago, Short Term Emory said:

It was a 1 time occurrence. Shooter was fast enough the TO could not stop him to restart. Shooter completed the stage and then spotters brought it to the attention of the TO. 

 

PROCEDURAL

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

oops

 

 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Just now, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

have to reshoot?

 

 

Based on what rule?...just add the 10-second penalty.

The "P" applies regardless of any specific stage instruction when to start shooting (or lack thereof)

It should be understood that the shooter is required to maintain the start position until the timer goes off.
REF RO3 p.1

[Widder, SASS #59054]

We have, on occasion, had a shooter who received a 'Beep' but did not react.   The shooter didn't hear the beep.

 

Likewise, there has been a shooter who 'thought' they heard the beep and started their stage run.

 

If its one of those inadvertent situations, I would think a reshoot would be the only logical thing to do, especially it being a 1 time occurrence.

And yes, I read PWB's answer.   But if the TO had to be told that it was a false start by the spotters, I don't know how nor why the TO wouldn't have known it because he/she was the official starter.

 

..........Widder

 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

2 minutes ago, Widowmaker Hill SASS #59054 said:

We have, on occasion, had a shooter who received a 'Beep' but did not react.   The shooter didn't hear the beep.

 

Likewise, there has been a shooter who 'thought' they heard the beep and started their stage run.

 

If its one of those inadvertent situations, I would think a reshoot would be the only logical thing to do, especially it being a 1 time occurrence.

And yes, I read PWB's answer.   But if the TO had to be told that it was a false start by the spotters, I don't know how nor why the TO wouldn't have known it because he/she was the official starter.

 

 

..........Widder

 

 

The T/O may have been standing behind the shooter in such a position tat he was unable to see the premature lever action.

There was once a shooter who habitually cocked the hammer of his rifle at the "stand by" until a spotter saw him do that and pointed it out to the T/O.
IIRC, a SOG penalty was added to the "P" in that particular case (repeated & intentional violations)

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Howdy PWB,

If he TO has the final word on the jump start 'P' penalty...and the TO is going on the input of the spotter(s), can the TO view the Timer to show the jump start occurred?

 

thanks

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

1 minute ago, Widowmaker Hill SASS #59054 said:

Howdy PWB,

If he TO has the final word on the jump start 'P' penalty...and the TO is going on the input of the spotter(s), can the TO view the Timer to show the jump start occurred?

 

thanks

 

..........Widder

 

The timer reading would likely be inconclusive unless it showed the first shot almost instantaneous with the "beep".

 

[Charlie Whiskers]

Did that shooter win or lose the Buick for shooting OR cocking the hammer before the beep?

[Short Term Emory]

Thank you all for the responses and thank you Palewolf for the official word. I appreciate all of your input. 

[Cowboy Junky]

Lot's of folks out there "anticipating" the beep and learning the TO's cadence. It's a dangerous game to play for .2 seconds. 

[Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474]

Our posses consider this a form of cheating, as does shooting from outside a designated box or position. We mark the positions very clearly.

Our posse marshal has stated that he would impose a SOG for repeater offenders.

It seems have stopped the one or two habitual offenders.

[Null N. Void]

Most of the time it's an accident by a less experienced shooter and they will self correct if you let them know they shouldn't be moving in the period between standby and the beep.  For good shooters that are trying to jump my normal one second hold, I'll delay for an additional second or two.  It's only happened a few times that I felt the need to do it.  It saves the argument over whether they were moving or not.  However, my preference is to say Standby, hold for about a second, and start the timer.  I don't like to hold shooters that are ready to shoot and are waiting for the beep.

[C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100]

The correct Ruling has been posted versus the OP.    However, if i were the TO and noticed the action just before the beep (I am usually looking at the firearm) - I would yell stop, caution the Shooter and restart.   Habitual behavior would be dealt with Offline.

 

 

[Null N. Void]

No argument with the ruling. 

[Marauder SASS #13056]

7 hours ago, Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474 said:

Our posses consider this a form of cheating, as does shooting from outside a designated box or position. We mark the positions very clearly.

Our posse marshal has stated that he would impose a SOG for repeater offenders.

It seems have stopped the one or two habitual offenders.

 

I really don't like shooting boxes.  The last thing I want to do while moving with a gun is watch my feet.  It is a good way to trip with a gun.    IF you want to mark a spot, put a prop there.  Please don't make folks watch their feet.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

8 hours ago, Cowboy Junky said:

Lot's of folks out there "anticipating" the beep and learning the TO's cadence. It's a dangerous game to play for .2 seconds. 

 

And if it happens when I shoot, it always screws me up!  I'd rather be 1/2 slow than beat the beeper and mess up a lot more.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

TWO Follow up questions:

 

1.  If the shooter jumps the 'Beep' and is stopped BEFORE the first round goes downrange, can a procedure be awarded when the shooter is off the clock?

 

2.  Shooter jumps the 'Beep' and fires first round.  But, the TO then stops him.

If the TO allows the shooter to continue, the 'P' would be earned.

But, if the TO stops the shooter after the first round is fired,  would this constitute a 'reshoot' based on TO interference and therefore, negate the 'P',  because Misses and 'P' can't carry over.

 

Thanks

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

[Null N. Void]

OR,

 

The shooter continues to shoot even though the timer has not initiated the timer and finishes the stage without the timer being started.  WTC?  I would think a SDQ but I'm don't know where it would be in the rules.

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

Widder I'm often wrong but I'd say #1 would just be a restart. I agree on #2, if allowed to shoot it would be a P, if stopped by the TO after the first shot it should be a reshoot.

 

Randy

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

59 minutes ago, Widowmaker Hill SASS #59054 said:

TWO Follow up questions:

 

1.  If the shooter jumps the 'Beep' and is stopped BEFORE the first round goes downrange, can a procedure be awarded when the shooter is off the clock?

 

2.  Shooter jumps the 'Beep' and fires first round.  But, the TO then stops him.

If the TO allows the shooter to continue, the 'P' would be earned.

But, if the TO stops the shooter after the first round is fired,  would this constitute a 'reshoot' based on TO interference and therefore, negate the 'P',  because Misses and 'P' can't carry over.

 

Thanks

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

1) NO...but the shooter should be given a warning that, if it happens again, the clock will keep running and a 10-second "P" WILL BE added to the shooter's score.

2a) Send the shooter to the ULT to clear all firearms; then get back in line at the LT (with the same warning) for a reshoot.

2b) YES...the "P" would be earned (with a warning re possible SOG for a repeat performance)

2c) see 2a

 

27 minutes ago, Null N. Void said:

OR,

 

The shooter continues to shoot even though the timer has not initiated the timer and finishes the stage without the timer being started.  WTC?  I would think a SDQ but I'm don't know where it would be in the rules.

No provision for a SDQ under that circumstance.
Many years ago, as a rookie T/O at EoT, one shooter on the posse would very quickly (and unintelligibly) rattle off the "start line, then immediately begin shooting before the timer went off, (this was before any RO courses, and prior to the recommendation to give a "standby" after the line or any other action to indicate "ready").

Knowing that the shooter had jumped the "beep" by the time I realized that he had actually said the starting line, I waited until he was finished with the stage; then asked if he wanted to do it again "on the clock" for score.

He learned to wait for the "beep" after that.

 

[Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474]

5 hours ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

 

I really don't like shooting boxes.  The last thing I want to do while moving with a gun is watch my feet.  It is a good way to trip with a gun.    IF you want to mark a spot, put a prop there.  Please don't make folks watch their feet.

 

We use spray paint.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Quote

We use spray paint.

 

DON'T make a shooter have to look down at the ground.  His attention should be on the guns and the targets.  Doesn't matter WHAT you are marking the ground with.  If you mark the ground, the shooter HAS to devote part of his stage time to getting his feet into a spot that the match director decided the feet had to be.  A prop through or around which you shoot is a much better way to define a shooting position because it's up in the shooter's line of vision.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

40 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

DON'T make a shooter have to look down at the ground.  His attention should be on the guns and the targets.  Doesn't matter WHAT you are marking the ground with.  If you mark the ground, the shooter HAS to devote part of his stage time to getting his feet into a spot that the match director decided the feet had to be.  A prop through or around which you shoot is a much better way to define a shooting position because it's up in the shooter's line of vision.

 

Good luck, GJ

Yep, shooting boxes BLAA!!...bout as popular as "Start on the Left" "Start on the Left" Good Luck

[Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474]

2 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

DON'T make a shooter have to look down at the ground.  His attention should be on the guns and the targets.  Doesn't matter WHAT you are marking the ground with.  If you mark the ground, the shooter HAS to devote part of his stage time to getting his feet into a spot that the match director decided the feet had to be.  A prop through or around which you shoot is a much better way to define a shooting position because it's up in the shooter's line of vision.

 

Good luck, GJ

We start the shooter in place, inside the painted box.

We normally paint it ~ 3 x 3 They do not have to look at their feet to stay inside.

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

2 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

DON'T make a shooter have to look down at the ground.  His attention should be on the guns and the targets.  Doesn't matter WHAT you are marking the ground with.  If you mark the ground, the shooter HAS to devote part of his stage time to getting his feet into a spot that the match director decided the feet had to be.  A prop through or around which you shoot is a much better way to define a shooting position because it's up in the shooter's line of vision.

 

Good luck, GJ

Wouldn't it be the SAME for EVERYONE ????

NO disadvantage or Same disadvantage for all , what You state is an Opinion ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and we all have them and they are all worth the same ....

You dislike Boxes ,,,,,,,, They allow me some movement to see through the Smoke ,,,, that Should Be a Part of shooting FCD ...

I like them, as long as they ain't tripping hazards ....

 

Jabez Cowboy

[Ya Big Tree]

17 hours ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

 

I really don't like shooting boxes.  The last thing I want to do while moving with a gun is watch my feet.  It is a good way to trip with a gun.    IF you want to mark a spot, put a prop there.  Please don't make folks watch their feet.

 

LOL...I can't even see my feet anymore.

 

[Assassin]

So, what's the penalty for the T.O. that does not give a delay, stand  beeeeeeeeeeeeeeep  by?  Or the distracting timer being thrust towards your ear. The solution to shooters jumping the clock is to start them a step or two behind the first shoot position, at the signal move and then begin shooting. We did this at Hell On Wheels and had no complaints regarding shooters jumping the clock. Yes, it added 1-2 seconds to the time but no complaints.

[Ramblin Gambler]

I've never timed, but I thought those rascals all had random delays between the press of the button and the beep.  I don't know where I got that from, but I swore someone told me the random time was settable, and we usually used 0-2 seconds.  From what you guys are saying, it sounds like the beep happens as soon as the button is pushed. 

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

Timer can be set to random for practice if you're timing yourself. 

 

Randy

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Quote

So, what's the penalty for the T.O. that does not give a delay, stand  beeeeeeeeeeeeeeep  by? 

 

As a shooter I turn to the TO with a big grin and say, "Can we try that again?   You gave me an early beep."

 

As a TO, I say just about the same thing to the shooter  "STOP.   Let's try that again and I'll pay attention to how I punch that button."

 

Good luck, GJ

 

[Assassin]

If it were left to me the shooter would start the clock, many of our side matches are started by the shooter now.