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Misty Moonshine

SASS Scoring - Important Notice!

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7 hours ago, Goody, SASS #26190 said:

Really? If that don't beat all. Now what the he** are we going to argue about?

The empty round left in a long gun rule. :-)

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2 hours ago, Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L said:

 

Misty,

 

While that may be true for the majority, it is not true for the entirety.  The recently held Maryland State Championship was run with Rank Points.  Of course, next year it will be Total Time!

 

OK, back to the regularly scheduled "discussion".  :rolleyes:

 

Dogmeat Dad

 

 

Noted. You are correct. Let me restate- up until now, State matches had the CHOICE to use TT and the majority did. Regional and above were FORCED to use rank. 

 

Misty

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Why don't we give the match directors, clubs etc the CHOICE of either running a RP match or a TT match.?

instead of forcing them to run a particular scoring method?

we have plenty of choice sometimes when it comes to shooting stages these days! 

Just my thoughts:D

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12 minutes ago, Jackaroo, # 29989 said:

Why don't we give the match directors, clubs etc the CHOICE of either running a RP match or a TT match.?

instead of forcing them to run a particular scoring method?

we have plenty of choice sometimes when it comes to shooting stages these days! 

Just my thoughts:D

 

I expect any match short of State level can use any scoring method they choose.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Jackaroo, # 29989 said:

Why don't we give the match directors, clubs etc the CHOICE of either running a RP match or a TT match.?

instead of forcing them to run a particular scoring method?

we have plenty of choice sometimes when it comes to shooting stages these days! 

Just my thoughts:D

Hello my dear friend,

 

I have read that argument before. The counter to it was that all Championship matches should use the same scoring method. Previously, State Matches were free to choose. Annuals below that are still free to choose. However, I think that this will encourage them to switch to TT if they were not using it already. Monthly and Annual matches may still select either scoring method.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

 

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32 years after my first complaint... glad I waited around!

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Thanks again to Texas Jack Daniels for the research to present a persuasive case to the TGs. That effort is worthy of elevation cowboy sainthood!

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That's outstanding.  Thanks for listening!!!

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8 hours ago, Grouchy Spike said:

Thanks again to Texas Jack Daniels for the research to present a persuasive case to the TGs. That effort is worthy of elevation cowboy sainthood!

Wait remember I've got to live with him, lol:lol:

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12 hours ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

Hello my dear friend,

 

I have read that argument before. The counter to it was that all Championship matches should use the same scoring method. Previously, State Matches were free to choose. Annuals below that are still free to choose. However, I think that this will encourage them to switch to TT if they were not using it already. Monthly and Annual matches may still select either scoring method.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

 

I believe that some state matches that were using RP would have also followed the bigger matches when they change to TT. I don't personally feel that the Wild Bunch had to force them through a mandate.

Just my opinion. 

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Thank You WB!

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When it comes to ties in total time what are the rules as to how a tie is broken?  I just went through the scores for EOT 2017 and of the 600 + shooters there wasn't any ties. When we had a tie with rank points we then used total time as the tie breaker.  If any body has answer to tie breaking in total time please let me know.  

In the SASS scoring program you have the two options, Number of shots on a stage + so many seconds. (you have to put the number of shoots per stages in the system, this is part of the match setup).  Option two is to take the slowest time on the stage + so many seconds, this sometimes can cause problems when a shooter has a gun malfunction and there score is in the 160 second range, then the SDQ would end up somewhere above the 160 depending on the number of seconds you added.

But like mentioned earlier with the number of shots + so many seconds a SDQ would end up with less time then the shooter with the gun malfunction. What ever the answer is the SASS scoring program will be changed to handle it. 

 

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Dear CD Tom,

 

I might suggest to break a total time tie (I know of only one in 30 years) that:

     1. Fewest misses and procedurals

     2. A shoot off

     3. Have co-winners (It isn't like we are trying to solve world hunger....)

 

I also suggest a maximum time per stage and those with DNF, SDQ, gun malfunction, etc. all get the max time.  The max time being (i.e. (24 x 5) + 30) varies by round count.

 

For what it is worth whatever the method :

     If I have a gun malfunction, SDQ or whatever I don't plan on winning

     If I tie for first then somebody better know CPR.

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50 minutes ago, Texas Jack Daniels said:

Dear CD Tom,

 

I might suggest to break a total time tie (I know of only one in 30 years) that:

     1. Fewest misses and procedurals

     2. A shoot off

     3. Have co-winners (It isn't like we are trying to solve world hunger....)

 

I also suggest a maximum time per stage and those with DNF, SDQ, gun malfunction, etc. all get the max time.  The max time being (i.e. (24 x 5) + 30) varies by round count.

 

For what it is worth whatever the method :

     If I have a gun malfunction, SDQ or whatever I don't plan on winning

     If I tie for first then somebody better know CPR.

I would start with number of stages won or some form of stage total time ranking as #1.

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Hi GCK,  Interesting idea.  I hadn't thought of that.

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33 minutes ago, Gold Canyon Kid #43974 said:

I would start with number of stages won or some form of stage total time ranking as #1.

 

 

Just now, Texas Jack Daniels said:

Hi GCK,  Interesting idea.  I hadn't thought of that.

 

 

So let me get this straight, if I understand correctly, we will use the equivalent of "Rank Points" to break a tie in a "Total Time" match?   :rolleyes:

 

 

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There is no decision here.  Only an interesting discussion.  While PWB pointed out there was a tie in total time at a match as far as CD Tom was able to report he has never seen a tie in total time.  So one tie in hundreds of thousands of scores isn't enough to worry about. 

 

Dogmeat Dad.....  Yeah it was funny   :rolleyes:

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3 hours ago, Texas Jack Daniels said:

Dogmeat Dad.....  Yeah it was funny   :rolleyes:

 

Glad someone saw the humor.   Sometimes folks on here forget this is supposed to be fun!  :lol:

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The problem here is we have made TT mandatory immediately. Yet, there are issues that have not been resolved. This rush to change has flaws that have not been addressed.  To think that a tie will never happen is fool hearty. A shoot-off is not possible in some matches because the ranges may have been cleared and awards presentations are on a time schedule that does not permit a shoot off. I am not in support of two State Champions so dual winners is not the right answer. Protocol for ties is needed. Because we do not have a viable TG voting process to make decisions that involves the membership. Someone else is making these decisions for the membership.  

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You are not in support of two state champions, and that makes dual winners not right?  Maybe others disagree with you, does that make them wrong them?

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First thing I would look at was how the two shooters compared to each other.  Who won over the other more?

 

It may take a multiple step process to determine.  There is nothing wrong with seeing who won the most gunfights as a tie - either comparing only the two or overall.

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43 minutes ago, Tracker Jack Daniels, 58780 said:

You are not in support of two state champions, and that makes dual winners not right?  Maybe others disagree with you, does that make them wrong them?

No it does not make them wrong. The additional cost for duplicate awards, may not be in a small state shoot budget or in a US Championship budget. I cannot think of any other major sports that has a tie. 

 

There is certainly a way to decide how to break a tie but my overall concern is the same. Who is making these decisions? The TG voting process is not in place any longer. Without an organized voting process, the general membership has no voice in how new rules are developed. It appears that these decisions are being made at TG meetings at Winter Ranger and EOT. This leaves the vast majority of clubs out of the process. My opinion is that is wrong.

 

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If the TT match brings a (rare) tie....simply take the time from the first half of the stages. If multiple days then day 1(first half), day 2 (second half), day 3 (first half), day 4 (second half)...

 

just a thought FWIW....

 

 

shooter.JPG

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On 7/15/2017 at 5:40 PM, Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L said:

 

 

 

 

So let me get this straight, if I understand correctly, we will use the equivalent of "Rank Points" to break a tie in a "Total Time" match?   :rolleyes:

 

 

 

Why not? We used Total time to break a tie in Rank Points...turn about is fair play.  Don't you just love the irony?!

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FWIW..........we just had our 1st match using total time this past Saturday, the 15th. We always used rank points previously. We use the SASS scoring program.

We had a tie, the exact same time for 2 shooters. They were shooters 11 and 12th in the overall. The SASS program apparently picked at random who was 11th and who was 12th.

When I read the scores I announced they were tied for 11th and I moved shooters 13-30 up a place to 12-29. 

When you change the set up of the match from rank to total time, no rank points are displayed anymore, so there's no way to break a tie by looking at the rank points.

 

Another side note, most shooters didn't care one way or the other with the change, some expressed they really liked it but 1 shooter really hated the change and told me of his displeasure allllll daaaayyyyy long..jeesh.

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Woohoo!! Thank you!!

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2 hours ago, Red-Eyed Kid, SASS # 37263 said:

FWIW..........we just had our 1st match using total time this past Saturday, the 15th. We always used rank points previously. We use the SASS scoring program.

We had a tie, the exact same time for 2 shooters. They were shooters 11 and 12th in the overall. The SASS program apparently picked at random who was 11th and who was 12th.

When I read the scores I announced they were tied for 11th and I moved shooters 13-30 up a place to 12-29. 

When you change the set up of the match from rank to total time, no rank points are displayed anymore, so there's no way to break a tie by looking at the rank points.

 

Another side note, most shooters didn't care one way or the other with the change, some expressed they really liked it but 1 shooter really hated the change and told me of his displeasure allllll daaaayyyyy long..jeesh.

Do an export of the match file to excel.  It will show the rank placement for each stage.

 

I've used it for several years that way and you can still see the rank score if you want.  Folks still like to see how they placed on each stage and the rank shows that.  I replace the total Rank column with the total misses for the match as that is helpful for folks as well.

 

But the data is all there, just doesn't show up on the abbreviated pdf score sheet.

 

Let me know if you need help with that.

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On ‎7‎/‎13‎/‎2017 at 9:27 AM, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

Thanks Misty.  Hopefully, how to score an SDQ will be addressed.  Making the "reccomendation" in the existing rules the rule would be nice.

 

For SDQ, I have seen slowest time of all shooters in the match on that stage plus 30 seconds used as score for the DQ'd.

JC

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42 minutes ago, Joe Cross, SASS #13848 L said:

 

For SDQ, I have seen slowest time of all shooters in the match on that stage plus 30 seconds used as score for the DQ'd.

JC

This was mentioned on the TG wire. I agree with one poster that it creates a burden on the folks doing scores.

 

I'm with the commonly used 5 seconds times the round count + 30 seconds.

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