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Misty Moonshine

SASS Scoring - Important Notice!

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Jackaroo,

 

First off, let me say that I too was perfectly happy with the old system but, at least for the moment, we are required to use TT and the Mason Dixon is only about 60 days away, so I need to have this solved.

 

As I'm sure we all know, in a RP match, all stages are treated equally in terms of rank points, and an SDQ buys you the maximum possible number of rank points in that match. Doesn't matter how many targets, how much movement, etc., you get Maximum Points.

 

So, in a TT match, shouldn't a SDQ buy you the maximum unit of measure? How do you detemine that other than by using the slowest stage time as a basis?  Or the number of targets?  Picking any fixed penalty, in a TT match, will either devalue, or inflate, the value of a miss or other penalty unless, as you note, all the stages have basically the same structure.  Because of that, I guess I just don't see the issue with having different SDQ values for different stages as the stages themselves are meaningless, it's all about the total match time.

 

Basically, these discussions are dealing with a difference in philosophy of what constitutes a winner.  I put forth an example earlier in this thread where Shooter 1 won 5 of the 6 stages in a match by 0.20 sec, but fell to Shooter 2 by 1.01 sec in the 6th stage.

 

Shooter 2, who lost 5 of the 6 stages, won the match.  Those who want TT are OK with that, those who want RP are not, and I don't see where there is a middle ground.  All I really want at the moment is just an answer before the first round goes down range.  

 

DD

 

And they thought RP vs TT discussion threads were dead! :P

 

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Dogmeat, yes I was perfectly happy with the Rp system too, but as a change has been made,....whether good or bad we have to come to terms with it one way or the other.

In any match really the max. unit of measure penalty wise would be the MDQ.

The SDQ is just under that, so I see a dilemma for match directors who need to have this solved. While I stand by my analysis of the current SDQ going on target numbers etc, what if you made any SDQ on a match or your match, the 5 sec X the max targets on one of the stages. Eg if you have 10 stages with 24 and one with 22 and one with 26, the SDQ penalty would be 26 X 5 + the 30 ...regardless of which stage in the infraction occurred on!. That evens up everything, but at the end of the day, why are we actually bothering with this system when we could just make it the same as RP scoring ! 

 

And they thought RP vs TT discussion threads were dead! :P

And we haven't started on the tie break discussion yet!:o :lol:

 

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The current RO1 manual lists 21 items that give a SDQ penalty. You stand a better chance of getting a SDQ than winning the 50/50. A high number of those are 100% preventable if we all follow already established safety procedures. We claim all these “levels of safety” yet very often fail to assist keeping a person safe. No penalty is assessed for failure to watch anothers back, yet that person’s match is absolutely ruined with the SDQ I may have helped cause by my negligence?

Alcohol, Drugs, and Guns don’t mix, right assessment, and should always be so. What about adrenaline? One of the most powerful natural drugs known to man. Can even revive some from the dead. Also a large aid for many getting a SDQ. The ‘drug’ can help execute conditioned tasks at warp speed. Interrupt the direction, focus, or present something new…. There you have it, a trainwreck….. Suppose I was watching the Unloading Table and offer this to a SDQ’d shooter, “Oh, I was chit chatting with another person when you got back to the unloading table with your brass bag. Guess you forgot to check those pistols while I was yakking. Sorry ‘bout the empty cases in them when you got to Stage 4”.......

 

Something to look at, possible solution:

Review the 21 items for SDQ. Divide them into two groups, Major and Minor. Major (Penalty 150) would be actual potential of a bullet out the barrel. Minor (Penalty 30) would be remaining offenses. If the shooter is truly unsafe, the second SDQ is automatically already a MDQ.

 

Even a 30 second penalty is devastating to top shooters. Shooter “Warp Speed” finishes a stage in 15 seconds, gets a Minor SDQ Penalty of 30, a total stage time of 45. That shooter is out of his normal position for 3 or more stages, instead of just that stage.

 

For those so strong to ruin a person’s whole match with a stage penalty: Where is the line crossed where a match is “gamed“ with “competitive advantage by penalty”?

 

May wisdom, safety, and fairness to all prevail as SASS works through this change.

 

Artic Fox

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6 minutes ago, Artic Fox, SASS# 39883 said:

The current RO1 manual lists 21 items that give a SDQ penalty. You stand a better chance of getting a SDQ than winning the 50/50. A high number of those are 100% preventable if we all follow already established safety procedures. We claim all these “levels of safety” yet very often fail to assist keeping a person safe. No penalty is assessed for failure to watch anothers back, yet that person’s match is absolutely ruined with the SDQ I may have helped cause by my negligence?

 

Alcohol, Drugs, and Guns don’t mix, right assessment, and should always be so. What about adrenaline? One of the most powerful natural drugs known to man. Can even revive some from the dead. Also a large aid for many getting a SDQ. The ‘drug’ can help execute conditioned tasks at warp speed. Interrupt the direction, focus, or present something new…. There you have it, a trainwreck….. Suppose I was watching the Unloading Table and offer this to a SDQ’d shooter, “Oh, I was chit chatting with another person when you got back to the unloading table with your brass bag. Guess you forgot to check those pistols while I was yakking. Sorry ‘bout the empty cases in them when you got to Stage 4”.......

 

 

 

Something to look at, possible solution:

 

Review the 21 items for SDQ. Divide them into two groups, Major and Minor. Major (Penalty 150) would be actual potential of a bullet out the barrel. Minor (Penalty 30) would be remaining offenses. If the shooter is truly unsafe, the second SDQ is automatically already a MDQ.

 

 

 

Even a 30 second penalty is devastating to top shooters. Shooter “Warp Speed” finishes a stage in 15 seconds, gets a Minor SDQ Penalty of 30, a total stage time of 45. That shooter is out of his normal position for 3 or more stages, instead of just that stage.

 

 

 

For those so strong to ruin a person’s whole match with a stage penalty: Where is the line crossed where a match is “gamed“ with “competitive advantage by penalty”?

 

 

 

May wisdom, safety, and fairness to all prevail as SASS works through this change.

 

 

 

Artic Fox

 

I've been working this same idea around in my head since the mandate to total time. I wasn't ready to open this can of worms, but I find it interesting that I'm not the only one pondering such things. 

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1 hour ago, Jackaroo, # 29989 said:

 

The SDQ is just under that, so I see a dilemma for match directors who need to have this solved. While I stand by my analysis of the current SDQ going on target numbers etc, what if you made any SDQ on a match or your match, the 5 sec X the max targets on one of the stages. Eg if you have 10 stages with 24 and one with 22 and one with 26, the SDQ penalty would be 26 X 5 + the 30 ...regardless of which stage in the infraction occurred on!. That evens up everything, but at the end of the day, why are we actually bothering with this system when we could just make it the same as RP scoring !

 

Here is the fundamental issue I have with any fixed penalty, regardless of how large.  There is the possibility that a shooter, whether through slow stage times, penalties other than SDQ, equipment malfunctions, earning the dreaded Trifecta (a miss, a P, and a safety) ends up with a stage time SLOWER than the SDQ.  It's just not right to have that occur in my way of thinking.

 

I think the point of difference between our philosophies is that you are convinced that in order to be fair, all SDQs need to carry the same time penalty and I do not think that to be the case.  So let me throw out another extreme example.  Two stages both 10-10-4.  One stage is a stand and deliver.  The other stage requires movement to 5 different shooting positions plus movement from the starting position to get to the first starting position.  Total travel distance, 100 yards (or 91.44 meters for you Aussie's :D).  Does a fixed time penalty for an SDQ of these two stages seem correct?

 

That is why I had suggested previously that the SDQ be set to the large number of the (Greater of (# shots x 5sec) or (Slowest Stage Time))+ 30 sec.  Prevents the shooter who safely, (but slowly) finished the course of fire from finishing below someone who had an SDQ.

 

Bottom line I guess is that we will have to agree to disagree on the SDQ needing to be a fixed time.  I think that the penalty should reflect the number of misses that the shooter earned with the SDQ (All of them) and you think that the penalty should be constant for each stage, regardless of how much movement, number of targets, etc, similar to the way it was handled in Rank Point.  The SASS software can do the math, for either of the SDQ formulas I mentioned, and I am sure with a minor tweak, could even do the combination math I suggested.

 

In the end, its all just speculation and discussion until the rules come out and then it's...

 

10959675d05a13c0154c85183a895436--till-d

 

And we haven't started on the tie break discussion yet!:o :lol:

 

Actually, there is a couple other threads discussion that (Plus what's in this one) on that subject already.  :rolleyes:

 

Tie Break #1

 

Tie Break #2

 

 

Well, I bid you all a fine remainder of the evening.  I leave on vacation in 38 hours, 46 minutes and change, and I have about 38 days worth of work to do between now and then.

 

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L said:

I think the point of difference between our philosophies is that you are convinced that in order to be fair, all SDQs need to carry the same time penalty and I do not think that to be the case.  So let me throw out another extreme example.  Two stages both 10-10-4.  One stage is a stand and deliver.  The other stage requires movement to 5 different shooting positions plus movement from the starting position to get to the first starting position.  Total travel distance, 100 yards (or 91.44 meters for you Aussie's :D).  Does a fixed time penalty for an SDQ of these two stages seem correct?

Yes!!

Wow, errr, I don't think there's a different penalty now DMD for two different stages like you describe?:o We can't count the numbers of steps the shooter took and then give him extra secs cause the movement was more.?

The same penalty should apply to both shooters like it is using RPs!  999.90

7 minutes ago, Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L said:

That is why I had suggested previously that the SDQ be set to the large number of the (Greater of (# shots x 5sec) or (Slowest Stage Time))+ 30 sec.  Prevents the shooter who safely, (but slowly) finished the course of fire from finishing below someone who had an SDQ.

 

Basicially what I'm saying, the greater # of shots or targets x 5 secs + 30 on what ever stage that is. You're only going to know the slowest stage time after the match, so using that you can't put in a score till that has been determined.

I really doubt that there would be any shooter that would be slower than the SDQ penalty say of 150 or 160 anyway,  and even if there was.......what difference would it make he/she are not going to win anything. I think we're stretching a long bow trying to get round that .

 

Anyway mate, have a good holiday, I have 3 weeks in Czech Rep from next week, I'll quiz them on how they do their TT.:lol::D

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12 hours ago, Artic Fox, SASS# 39883 said:

{previous context removed only to save space}

Something to look at, possible solution:

Review the 21 items for SDQ. Divide them into two groups, Major and Minor. Major (Penalty 150) would be actual potential of a bullet out the barrel. Minor (Penalty 30) would be remaining offenses. If the shooter is truly unsafe, the second SDQ is automatically already a MDQ.

 

Even a 30 second penalty is devastating to top shooters. Shooter “Warp Speed” finishes a stage in 15 seconds, gets a Minor SDQ Penalty of 30, a total stage time of 45. That shooter is out of his normal position for 3 or more stages, instead of just that stage.

 

For those so strong to ruin a person’s whole match with a stage penalty: Where is the line crossed where a match is “gamed“ with “competitive advantage by penalty”?

 

May wisdom, safety, and fairness to all prevail as SASS works through this change.

Artic Fox

 

 

Artic Fox:

     Definitely something to consider. I've always thought that unsafe practices should be addressed; however, potential safety issues that in combination with others would result in a major safety issue, should be penalized on a different scale. Personally, if I violate a major safety issue that could result in harm to others, if that results in a SDQ, I'll take the penalty, and if severe enough for a MDQ, I will walk away with my head hung in shame. :blush:

     For local club matches, I believe any penalty amount used would be fine. Where this discussion about how much a SDQ should be penalized really should come into play, is in Major Matches, be they State, EoT, WR, etc. The winner of these matches should be the one that shoots the fastest and cleanest without receiving a penalty (SDQ) of any sort. When you get to this point in your CAS journey, you are expected to be fully aware of those 21 items for SDQ. The difference between first place and second place should really only depend on SPEED - Misses - Procedurals.

    IMHO, this is based on what I would expect from myself at one of these Major Events.

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Total Time is not a “drop-in replacement kit” for Rank Score. I ‘usta wuz’ a TT advocate until finally seeing how many things just do not fit in as a direct replacement. My thanks to the Wire discussion for helping me see some things more clearly than before.

How can we take a stage based system (RP) and suddenly fold it into a whole match based system (TT), taking with it the same penalty base or even philosophy? RP has a severe penalty for SDQ that is 67 times greater for a 15 sec stage shooter, 7 times greater for a 150 sec stage shooter. The effects of all SDQ and lesser penalties in RP are confined to that stage alone. In TT, every penalty affects the whole match as they are cumulative. Even the term, “SDQ”, is extremely flawed in TT, as it is now empowered to ruin a person’s whole match by what was designed as “last place on a single stage”. TT requires a maximum stage time. If going TT, should we now have a sensible Par Time as well?

Flawed as it might seem to be, RP is still the best overall system the 17 years I have been in this game. (Never, ever, thought I would say that). Use of TT requires a thorough overhaul and new penalty system to be anywhere near as fair and equitable.

I can see no good outcomes in this hasty change

Artic Fox

 

P.S. If we want to work on true inequities in a competitive aberration brought on by Category Wars…   Shooter “A” shoots EOT clean with a 28.5 sec stage average; does not place and gets no buckle. Shooter “B” shoots EOT with multiple misses, P on a stage, Minor Safety on another, 50 sec stage average, places in a different Category and gets a buckle? Fair and equitable? We wonder why people are leaving this game?

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With the SASS scoring program, the last thing accomplished is calculating the scores.  And one of those things is determining the SDQ penalty.  (It can now be set as a set time, the misses+ a set penalty, or the worst time + something.) So it is just part of the normal process.

 

So I don't see a big issue with the last minute calculation of the SDQ penalty.  It is already done automatically.

 

Even if you were to do it manually, it would be a relatively simple formula to calculate it.  Just get the max stage time and add whatever you wish to set up.

 

I had not thought of it, but I now agree with Jackaroo about having one penalty set for the entire match versus one that would vary according to which stage it happened on.

 

And we can decide how we want to handle the worst stage time, if someone shot it in a time larger than the total missesX5 +30.  Some would have that the max time - and if you went over, you got only the calculated time. I've seen it done both ways, but I prefer to give folks the time they actually shot.

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It appears that several major matches moved to total time scoring and others continued to use it without issue since new rule became effective.  Maybe some folks protest too much.

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Stage Points solves the SDQ/DNF problem but is not being considered for CAS matches.  TT has always had the problem of determining what the proper time should be for those occurrences. Remember, not ALL SDQ penalties are awarded for safety violations so how important they are is something to consider.

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7 hours ago, Gold Canyon Kid #43974 said:

It appears that several major matches moved to total time scoring and others continued to use it without issue since new rule became effective.  Maybe some folks protest too much.

If it is/was a SASS sanctioned match, i.e. State or above, they did not have a choice.  SASS issued contract amendments to all of those matches with the requirement to either use TT or forfeit the match.  

 

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Several annual and state matches have been using total time for many years.

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How you score a missed stage. Recently, my rifle jammed in the 5th stage of a match. We got it cleared, but I sat out the 6th and final stage because I was concerned that the gun might jam again. I was surprised when the score for that stage was reported as 999 seconds. That put my total time for 6 stages way out there. Was this correct?

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You are scored as a DNF or SDQ.

For total time you have two much better options.

1.   5 seconds for each shot +30 seconds

2.  The slowest time on the stage +30 seconds

 

I've seen some clubs do the slowest time on the stage +10 or +20 seconds.

 

I know that option 1 is included in the SASS manuals.

 

Using the 999 works for rank scoring but makes a SDQ abut the same as a MDQ, so they recommended the different method for total time. 

 

That club needs to update their process if they want to use total time.

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Marauder,

Thanks for that information.

Lawman Mays

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On 8/22/2017 at 10:13 PM, Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L said:

If it is/was a SASS sanctioned match, i.e. State or above, they did not have a choice.  SASS issued contract amendments to all of those matches with the requirement to either use TT or forfeit the match.  

 

I believe to old rule was above a State Match had to be Rank Points, I've shot at several State Matches in the past that used Total Time.

 

Thanks

Randy

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53 minutes ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

I believe to old rule was above a State Match had to be Rank Points, I've shot at several State Matches in the past that used Total Time.

 

Thanks

Randy

That is correct, previously, state matches and below had the option of RP or TT, anything above was required to use RP.  Sorry if my response implied otherwise.  The new rule, which is for State AND above, requires TT.

 

In reality, I was always surprised that State had the option under the old rule.  Having all sanctioned matches use the same scoring system just makes sense.

 

Now, back to arguing which one that is! :P

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