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Null N. Void

What's the Call

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This came up while working up stages. I've simplified the stage that is proposed. SG is not involved. Pistol and Rifle targets are set correctly and have plenty of room between them but are visible from either table.

 

Pistol targets have one dump target and one knockdown. Rifle targets have one dump target and one knockdown.

 

Stage calls for 9 pistol shots on the pistol dump target and then shoot the pistol knockdown. Move to rifle and shoot 9 rifle shots on rifle dump and shoot the rifle knockdown. Shooter starts and shoots the 9 shot dump on the pistol dump target and then, instead of shooting the pistol knockdown, they shoot the rifle knockdown successfully. They then move to the rifle table and shoot the 9 rifle dump successfully and then, because there is no knockdown available, shoot where it would have been.

 

What's the call? Hitting a rifle target with a pistol shot is a miss per the Flow chart. My call would have been one miss for the pistol knockdown still standing. However, what do you do with the 10'th rifle shot. Do you treat it as a prop failure? Do you treat it as a 2'nd miss? This didn't occur in a match, but I'm thinking about how would you score it.

 

Thanks for your time!

 

NNV

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miss

no target failure, he knocked it down with pistol...miss is for pistol target still standing

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Yep 1 miss for the pistol

Rifle shoot the 10th round where the knock down was at

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miss

no target failure, he knocked it down with pistol...miss is for pistol target still standing

When he got to the end of the rifle string, the target he was supposed to shoot was no longer standing, hence my use of the words target failure. It did not fail on its own but it failed to be standing when he was supposed to shoot at it. I don't believe that how it came to not be standing comes into play.

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Null, I posted a WTC on the Wild Bunch forum while back after we had a similar situation in a WBAS match. There we had static rifle targets and knockdown targets for the shotgun. A new shooter mistakenly engaged and dropped the KDs with the rifle (each shot being a miss under the flowchart) so that those targets were not available when the shooter transitioned to the shotgun. On the one hand, "shoot where it was" usually comes into play when the target is absent by no fault of the shooter. Here the shooter caused the problem by engaging the wrong targets. On the other hand, not allowing the competitor to "shoot where they were" results in two misses being assessed for each shot. The answer to my post was against penalizing the shooter twice.

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One miss on the pistol and shoot where it was on the rifle. I myself would avoid using the use of the term 'target failure' so as to avoid having to look up in the books to see what that might or might not imply. JMO.

Edited by Grizzly Dave

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One miss on the pistol and shoot where it was on the rifle. I myself would avoid using the use of the term 'target failure' so as to avoid having to look up in the books to see what that might or might not imply. JMO.

The OP asked if it would be a prop failure. I used target failure to distinguish what happened from a. Prop failure which would allow for a reshoot. Target failures don't.

 

ROII page 8

Edited by Smokestack

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Just for you thought process.

You could avoid the problem by designating the knocks down targets as R/P targets and allowing the shooting to engage the knockdown of choice.

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The OP asked if it would be a prop failure. I used target failure to distinguish what happened from a. Prop failure which would allow for a reshoot. Target failures don't.

 

ROII page 8

 

Got cha, you were ahead of me.

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I'm gonna call a second miss on this one. The rifle kd wasn't there because the shooter knocked it down when he shot the wrong target. Therefore the "missing" target was caused by the shooters own actions. There was no target failure. And yes, self inflicted wounds are the most painful.

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I'm gonna call a second miss on this one. The rifle kd wasn't there because the shooter knocked it down when he shot the wrong target. Therefore the "missing" target was caused by the shooters own actions. There was no target failure. And yes, self inflicted wounds are the most painful.

Bet ya can't show us that in the rules...

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I'm gonna call a second miss on this one. The rifle kd wasn't there because the shooter knocked it down when he shot the wrong target. Therefore the "missing" target was caused by the shooters own actions. There was no target failure. And yes, self inflicted wounds are the most painful.

Bet ya can't show us that in the rules...

 

Exactly right Smokestack. But, I wouldn't call it a target or prop failure. Just as when shooting a plate rack, if one falls (inexplicitly or not), shoot where it was... a free shot. BOD to the shooter! Edited by Griff

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Ok what about shooting the targets out of sequence? Would a p not be given? I would think a p for shooting the rifle knockdown with the round from the pistol I the instructions indicated 9 pistol shots on dump then 10th round on pistol knockdown. I could be wrong

Rafe

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Exactly right Smokestack. But, I wouldn't call it a target or prop failure. Just as when shooting a plate rack, if one falls (inexplicitly or not), shoot where it was... a free shot. BOD to the shooter!

If you look in the rule book, the part that talks about shooting where it was is under the heading target failure.

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Ok what about shooting the targets out of sequence? Would a p not be given? I would think a p for shooting the rifle knockdown with the round from the pistol I the instructions indicated 9 pistol shots on dump then 10th round on pistol knockdown. I could be wrong

Rafe

A P would only be given for shooting the correct type of target in the wrong order. When you are shooting pistols, the rifle and shotgun targets are treated the same as the berm for scoring purposes.

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Ok what about shooting the targets out of sequence? Would a p not be given? I would think a p for shooting the rifle knockdown with the round from the pistol I the instructions indicated 9 pistol shots on dump then 10th round on pistol knockdown. I could be wrong

Rafe

You are.

REF: RO1 p.25

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L

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The OP's shooter did it exactly right. Minimized the damage to 1 miss. Very quick thinking.

 

This is one of those never ending sources of confusion. Only the correct type targets exist for the gun you are shooting.

 

Other common examples:

 

Hitting a rifle or pistol target with your shotgun. (it's just a miss)

 

Knocking down a shotgun target with your pistols or rifle. (it's just a miss, shoot where it was during the shotgun string.

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The OP's shooter did it exactly right. Minimized the damage to 1 miss. Very quick thinking.

 

This is one of those never ending sources of confusion. Only the correct type targets exist for the gun you are shooting.

 

Other common examples:

 

Hitting a rifle or pistol target with your shotgun. (it's just a miss)

 

Knocking down a shotgun target with your pistols or rifle. (it's just a miss, shoot where it was during the shotgun string.

There is no SHOOTER.....

He did not do any quick thinking.

This is a proposed stage under consideration followed by a "what if" question.

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The real failure is what we have allowed the game to become. I do not even like double taps but more and more it seems a 3 target array is routine with double, triple, quadruple taps. But 9 rifle shots on the same dump target? Ugh, and sigh. This is not cowboy action shooting. This is some kind of contest to see who can toggle their rifles and pistols the fastest. I so regret this direction we have turned to, taken the wrong fork in the road. No wonder our numbers continue to plummet...

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The real failure is what we have allowed the game to become. I do not even like double taps but more and more it seems a 3 target array is routine with double, triple, quadruple taps. But 9 rifle shots on the same dump target? Ugh, and sigh. This is not cowboy action shooting. This is some kind of contest to see who can toggle their rifles and pistols the fastest. I so regret this direction we have turned to, taken the wrong fork in the road. No wonder our numbers continue to plummet...

There are still a few clubs which have refused to evolve with the game. They are struggling to survive due to lack of shooters interested in what they offer. I am not saying your opinion is wrong, but you are certainly in the minority.

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The real failure is what we have allowed the game to become. I do not even like double taps but more and more it seems a 3 target array is routine with double, triple, quadruple taps. But 9 rifle shots on the same dump target? Ugh, and sigh. This is not cowboy action shooting. This is some kind of contest to see who can toggle their rifles and pistols the fastest. I so regret this direction we have turned to, taken the wrong fork in the road. No wonder our numbers continue to plummet...

 

Please note the second sentence of the original post. The stage was not set that way, just simplified for the wire so everyone reading and commenting didn't have to wade through the stage to get to the important point, which was shooting the wrong knockdown and what is to be done about it.

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I am not so sure I am in the minority on the direction the game has taken. We had a whole lot more members back in the good ole days. The game is dying out. And I believe the major reason is that all the fun has been sucked out of it. I personally know many former staunch shooters who quit because of this. If I am wrong, then the plunge in numbers would not be happening and instead be on the increase. Most who think likewise are afraid to say anything due to the pummeling they would receive here for daring to dog the dogma. I do not care if anyone thinks I am wrong so long as they are polite in their disagreement arguments. No one should feel the need for kevlar long johns in this ongoing great debate. IMNSHO we either get back to our roots or continue to spiral into extinction.

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I am not so sure I am in the minority on the direction the game has taken. We had a whole lot more members back in the good ole days. The game is dying out. And I believe the major reason is that all the fun has been sucked out of it. I personally know many former staunch shooters who quit because of this. If I am wrong, then the plunge in numbers would not be happening and instead be on the increase. Most who think likewise are afraid to say anything due to the pummeling they would receive here for daring to dog the dogma. I do not care if anyone thinks I am wrong so long as they are polite in their disagreement arguments. No one should feel the need for kevlar long johns in this ongoing great debate. IMNSHO we either get back to our roots or continue to spiral into extinction.

The plunge in numbers has little to do wth the stages we shoot, target sizes or distances. In fact clubs that are doing well do exactly the opposite of what you recommend. The reduction in SASS numbers has a lot more to do with demographics of cowboy shooters, the largest percentages of shooters today are well over 60 years old and the sport no longer attracts younger shooters who were not raised in the era of TV and movie westerns.

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that's the rumor. And the party line. But the plain truth staring us in the face is that young people these days only want to shoot black guns. Period. We are not gonna attract them. Way past time we stop driving away the old folks who have carried this game thru the decades. I repeat and will maintain we need to get back to our roots and maybe just maybe some of those who have fallen away will return. No one can convince me that the new "let's see who can toggle the equipment fastest" is the wise way to go because it is absolutely NOT.

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You're probably right...there are folks out there who long for the "old days". But if you think our numbers are plummeting now, go back to carrying the dummy, throwing a knife on the clock, sitting in a bathtub and shooting at tiny targets at 30 or 40 yards. That would hasten the death spiral.

 

Just my opinion.

 

Four Bucks (who doesn't care much for dumps either and likes using the front sight)

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that's the rumor. And the party line. But the plain truth staring us in the face is that young people these days only want to shoot black guns. Period. We are not gonna attract them. Way past time we stop driving away the old folks who have carried this game thru the decades. I repeat and will maintain we need to get back to our roots and maybe just maybe some of those who have fallen away will return. No one can convince me that the new "let's see who can toggle the equipment fastest" is the wise way to go because it is absolutely NOT.

As a relatively new SASS member and shooter, late 2014, I tend to agree with the above to an extent.

 

I have shot matches at a couple of ranges in the Phoenix area, one up near Scottsdale, Colorado, Idaho, Wyoming, Illinois and Texas. Each one does things differently; from slightly different to quite a bit.

 

To my eyes, it appears there is greater emphasis on dumping rounds as fast as possible at the largest, closest targets possible. Many of the pistol targets are so close it seems I could hit them with my pistol attached to a 3' lanyard. Ray Charles would have a hard time missing them they are so big and close. I've shot some where my boots were getting hit with splatter while I was shooting.

 

Rifle targets seem to be a bit smaller but again, close. Close enough to be watermelon seed spitting distance for 2nd graders.

 

Now granted, if the 'need for speed' is the main goal, which it seems to be, there will be misses for those of us that don't/can't get out to practice every week or day. I often go several weeks to a couple months without having a chance to even touch my guns since I'm not yet 'retirement' age and have a business to run and often travel for work. So I will never be competitive in my category when I go to larger shoots.

 

I've also shot a couple of matches where the pistol targets were more on salad plate size and roughly 1.5-2 times farther than the Phoenix, AZ rifle targets. Rifle targets were about the same size but 2-3 times farther than the pistol targets. These matches were run by groups that were no longer SASS affiliates, according to them due to just the exact reasons we're discussing here.

 

Personally one of the most fun, challenging matches I've been to is Hell On Wheels. Assassin and the crew up there put on a great event with lots of movement and challenging stages. I know I'll never get to the point where I can compete at Assassin's level, but it's fun to compete with myself due to the diversity of the stages and targets.

 

Shooting pistol targets the size of Viking shields 10' away gets boring. Shooting rifle targets the size of Nissan car hoods at 20' gets boring. Shooting the same round or square targets gets boring. Seeing repetitive stages over and over, with very little variance gets boring.

 

Yes, I know I need to get more involved, become an RO2, write stages, etc. Working on it as I can.

 

I love this sport and the people I get to hang out with. But that doesn't mean that maybe some adjustment isn't needed.

Edited by Lost Trail

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Wow, this thread not only jumped the rails, I think it did it on a bridge! :D

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Gotta agree with Lone Dog... When asking why former shooters don't shoot anymore... I get two answers... the 60 PF and it's nothing but six-gun and rifle speed. Along with "got tired of same ol', same ol' stages"... "other things came along that're more fun". It's also often a combination of those, with "grandkids man... grandkids!" thrown in!

 

I only have one issue... short strokes. Either rifle or pistol. Between them, they've taken the game places never imagined by it's founders... (Oh, and if you make any of your income off any of these, your opinion is tainted, so don't bother to respond). Arguing about this is pointless... 'cause I won't, you can't fight human nature, and it's the nature of man to go faster, with more ease and beyond.

 

But, really, the main reason is economics... It used to cost a shooter about $1500 to buy all three guns... (often less)... and with a little judicious smoothing you could be competitive. NOW, one has to spend nearly the cost of your guns in modifications in order to be competitive.

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I concur, its a 1 miss.

 

Ok I normally just read, but I really feel like I need to give my 2 cents. I agree with both sides (no am not a snowflake) and think there are dual reasons for declining numbers, but there is always a fix. I have been in sass for about 5 years and have shot in many different types of matches. Last year we got to do the old fashioned cowboy shoot with the knife throwing, and riding the horse (barrel on springs). I was truly excited to see how it used to be done as was my family. We had a fantastic time and would do it again however, the numbers at the shoot were very low. I ask several SASS members and most had the same reason, they did it back in the day and that was enough. Cat Ballou and Tex were with me at this shoot and said that the knees and back were just not as young as they used to be and made these type of shoots very hard.

So I feel the fix is a mixture of both, and some can be simplified like shot gun shells in beans or something to that effect. The biggest fix would be promotion and keeping the game interesting to NEW shooters. Dress up the range, give it a cowboy feel, UPDATE your old websites that make searching for info in your area ease. Websites are the now and the future, but so many clubs are so old and stuck in their ways that they don’t try and change with the times. We as SASS members have to be excited about change to bring about change. Get new board members, someone with fresh ideas that want to boost numbers. I have been a part of so many clubs that don’t like each other, or don’t like change or use the excuse well this is how we have always done it. I honestly feel WE as SASS members can boost numbers and make a difference but you have to want to not just complain about it. In the 5 short years I have been in SASS I have waddied at EOT, been appointed match director at two separate clubs, and promoted the SASS scholarship at every major event. Not tooting my own horn but again if you want change you have to make a difference.

 

Ok fire away, sorry I am passionate about this sport and want to see it grow.

 

Howlin Wolf

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Does anyone know for a fact what the maximum number of members there were at any given time

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Oh and for the record I am short stroked on pistols and rifle, but it doesn't make a damn difference lol I can never seem to get the W!!! :D

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Im with Howlin' Wolf. I would love to see it shot the old way. Lots of different situations, the horses, knives, dragging things. Speaking as someone who is about the same age as him. I know most guys I would get to come would want to do more than shoot really fast. Im not saying this because I cant shoot fast, because Im pretty fast. 15-20 second stages is great and all but I would prefer longer times and more fun and variety.

yes, I have heard everyone say "im not as young as I use to be, thats why we dont it that way anymore" but when does it stop, sit in a wheelchair and deliver? if it was more like it was in the past, I think more young shooters might be interested.

 

I concur, its a 1 miss.

 

Ok I normally just read, but I really feel like I need to give my 2 cents. I agree with both sides (no am not a snowflake) and think there are dual reasons for declining numbers, but there is always a fix. I have been in sass for about 5 years and have shot in many different types of matches. Last year we got to do the old fashioned cowboy shoot with the knife throwing, and riding the horse (barrel on springs). I was truly excited to see how it used to be done as was my family. We had a fantastic time and would do it again however, the numbers at the shoot were very low. I ask several SASS members and most had the same reason, they did it back in the day and that was enough. Cat Ballou and Tex were with me at this shoot and said that the knees and back were just not as young as they used to be and made these type of shoots very hard.

So I feel the fix is a mixture of both, and some can be simplified like shot gun shells in beans or something to that effect. The biggest fix would be promotion and keeping the game interesting to NEW shooters. Dress up the range, give it a cowboy feel, UPDATE your old websites that make searching for info in your area ease. Websites are the now and the future, but so many clubs are so old and stuck in their ways that they don’t try and change with the times. We as SASS members have to be excited about change to bring about change. Get new board members, someone with fresh ideas that want to boost numbers. I have been a part of so many clubs that don’t like each other, or don’t like change or use the excuse well this is how we have always done it. I honestly feel WE as SASS members can boost numbers and make a difference but you have to want to not just complain about it. In the 5 short years I have been in SASS I have waddied at EOT, been appointed match director at two separate clubs, and promoted the SASS scholarship at every major event. Not tooting my own horn but again if you want change you have to make a difference.

 

Ok fire away, sorry I am passionate about this sport and want to see it grow.

 

Howlin Wolf

Edited by Home Range

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