Whiskey Kid Posted October 12, 2016 Author Share Posted October 12, 2016 Hi Folks, It seems like the majority of the posters favor no more Divisionals. Regards, Allie +1 Not sure why they were created in the first place. (But I have my suspicions) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 If you look for it, there were a lot of people on the wire bellyaching about how far they lived from Phoenix. They wanted 2 national championships, one on each side of the country. Shortly thereafter the Divisionals were born. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straight Arrow Hombre Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 I fail to understand why so many people want the divisional matches done away with. What are they really hurting? (as in reality not conjecture and pretend) I probably will never shoot my divisional as it is quite a distance, but I sure wouldn't vote to have it taken away from someone that lives closer and wants to attend it. I feel that would quite selfish on my part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 A divisional that fails to draw enough shooters (I've heard break-even head counts of at least 400 shooters are needed) costs the entire SASS organization and the hosting club. We have plenty of other millstones rolling our way in the near future, to be committed to putting on divisionals with marginal or losing attendance levels. If you fail to understand other pards views, fine. State why your views are well founded and what would make the divisionals successful enough to keep them going. Maybe even commit to loading up a bunch of your pards and going to the divisional that is held next. good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straight Arrow Hombre Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 A divisional that fails to draw enough shooters (I've heard break-even head counts of at least 400 shooters are needed) costs the entire SASS organization and the hosting club. We have plenty of other millstones rolling our way in the near future, to be committed to putting on divisionals with marginal or losing attendance levels. If you fail to understand other pards views, fine. State why your views are well founded and what would make the divisionals successful enough to keep them going. Maybe even commit to loading up a bunch of your pards and going to the divisional that is held next. good luck, GJ Shouldn't the host club decide if it's in their best interest to keep the match going? Shouldn't the SASS office decide if its financially feasible to sanction the matches? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 Shouldn't the host club decide if it's in their best interest to keep the match going? Shouldn't the SASS office decide if it's financially feasible to sanction the matches? Sure they should. (If keeping divisional matches going is the path for the future.) But if the SASS OFFICE has SPECIFICALLY asked folks to provide feedback about this regional/divisional restructuring, it is our RESPONSIBILITY to civilly provide our feedback. Most folks have decided they will provide that feedback through their TGs. Some folks apparently decided to provide it here. Especially because there were some pards with some pretty reasonable restructuring ideas which were not provided as the first 2 "options to be considered." So, provide your feedback. (Just don't try to silence other pards trying to share theirs.) Remember, this is a discussion forum. Not a Board of Directors meeting room. good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straight Arrow Hombre Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 Sure they should. (If keeping divisional matches going is the path for the future.) But if the SASS OFFICE has SPECIFICALLY asked folks to provide feedback about this regional/divisional restructuring, it is our RESPONSIBILITY to civilly provide our feedback. Most folks have decided they will provide that feedback through their TGs. Some folks apparently decided to provide it here. Especially because there were some pards with some pretty reasonable restructuring ideas which were not provided as the first 2 "options to be considered." So, provide your feedback. (Just don't try to silence other pards trying to share theirs.) Remember, this is a discussion forum. Not a Board of Directors meeting room. good luck, GJ I don't recall divisional as part of the discussion and where did I try to silence anyone. In fact I asked for realistic explanations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whiskey Kid Posted October 12, 2016 Author Share Posted October 12, 2016 I don't recall divisional as part of the discussion and where did I try to silence anyone. In fact I asked for realistic explanations. Did you read Misty's post? Item #1 is dealing with divisionals and the closing of Sparta. Not sure how you can miss that the two are tied together since it is literally the first bullet point. Sorry to be abrupt but, you asked the question. Below is a letter I sent out to MY TG's and others in our state who this effects. I am very afraid that this is one of those things that this is one of those things that will get pushed through without enough thought and attention given to it. I don't want to see that happen! We found out this was going to happen not two weeks ago and the vote is being driven to happen by the end of the month. At the very least this seems too hasty! why the sense of urgency to make a change for 2018? Why can't it be table and given further consideration? Why only two options? This is from a TG with reguards to the vote, "I want you to understand I was sent an email with a link to a voting web site where I can vote for A or B and I can also leave a single short paragraph comment." How can this not raise eyebrows? Anyway, here is what I wrote to the TG's in Texas, and I have received plenty of responses stating that they agreed they didn't like the options provided, and like some of the options I suggested! I will not attache my maps in order to not clutter things, but they are in previous posts. Please, everyone, provide input if you have it! It is what we all should do! If you have a better idea of what to do in your area, I want to hear it! We should all be able to help contribute on this as it will effect us all directly or indirectly. Thanks, Whiskey Kid Board and TG, As you know a current hot topic regarding SASS is the realignment of the regions and divisions. This is significant for all of those in the southwest region as both options presented would split the Southwest Region in half! I realize the total number of shooters after realignment would be similar, but we would lose half the states with which we currently shoot. That means, to those of us who frequented regional matches, we would not have the opportunity to shoot with many of our friends, and these SASS fostered friendships are of great importance. I do not think this is fair to a region that has such a strong sense of comradery and such a great group of shooters. Misty Moonshine has cited the following reasons for the proposed realignments and her reasoning as to why these ideas are bad and suggested these alternatives: The dissolution of the Central Region & Central Divisional Championship (Sparta/US Open). The closing of one range at which a divisional was to be held should in no way be a reason to realign regions. A more reasonable solution would be to suspend that particular event until a suitable location could be found or the dissolution of the match itself. Missouri members requesting to be included in the Southwest Region. The solution to items 2 and 3 is easy! Mississippi wants to shoot to the east and Missouri wants to drop down. Let them do as they wish! Two problems solved in one step! Mississippi members requesting to be included in the Southeast Region Let them do it! Overall declining member numbers. Regional alignment won’t solve member numbers. In fact I believe we will see the opposite impact of what SASS is trying to accomplish by increasing the size of the regions in order to increase the number of shooters. This proposal will actually have diminishing returns as the distance to travel is one of the biggest blockades for most folks making a road trip. I think anything over about 5-6 hours drive time will cause a significant drop in participation, except amongst the very top participants. Declining numbers in attendance at some Regional matches (a dilution of the program). This has a little to do with #4 as well. Your pool of shooters willing to attend a particular match decreases with the overall length of travel. To compound this, those same shooters can only go to so many matches per year, specifically matches that require extended time off. By adding a divisional you pull shooters from both regional, national and world matches as the possible matches they could attend. Some quick metrics to help shed some light on this thought process. Say you have 500 shooters willing to travel to the larger matches at a greater distance. They can only make 3 matches of the 4 (state, regional, national and world) due to limited vacation time. That’s 1500 entries split between 4 matches for a total of 375 per match. I realize the local shooters will drive this total up at the state, and maybe some at the regional, but not significantly at the national and world. This is heavily influenced by geography. Now, take the same 1500 entries divided into 5 matches, because of the addition of the divisional, the average number of shooters at the match drops to 300. The irony here is, if you decrease the size of the region you probably increase the total number of shooters that can shoot a regional because it is less distance to travel, so costs are reduced and you need less vacation time to accomplish it. Both realignment options brought before us, in almost all shooters’ cases will do the exact opposite of this! Fewer Regions will result in having more states in each region, longer drive time and greater expenses. This will result in less shooters participating in a regional event, which is the opposite of what SASS envisions with these proposed changes. The Northeast Regional was abruptly cancelled by its hosts in 2016. I stated in one of my recent SASS Wire posts, but I will iterate it here, one regional canceled shouldn’t affect how the rest of the country shoots! It is very unfortunate when a match is cancelled abruptly. We saw that for our Texas State match. Fortunately a club was able to step in and take it over, so most Texas State shooters were none the wiser. Perhaps when a match is dissolved, or a club holding a state/regional/divisional match is dissolved, SASS might be able to provide an extra incentive to the club which is picking up the large match without advance preparation (and I know, here I go spending someone else’s money, but it could be helpful to the overall health of SASS). Maybe a reduction of the required SASS fees for that particular match should be in order? It’s common knowledge that the first year of hosting a big match can be a great financial burden on a club. This is probably the single biggest reason many clubs are unwilling to step in and take over a sanctioned match. 2016 will mark the final year of the Southeast Regional at Givhan’s Ferry (per the hosts) There is still time to work on the problem and come up with viable solutions for 2017, without destroying the current regions. Petitions to reinstate the High Plains Region. If the High Plains Region wants to expand, or any region for that matter, let them. Improved Regional Sponsorship success with fewer, better attended events. I really don’t see this as an issue, except for the fact that adding a divisional over the top of the regional pulls sponsors from them. Sponsors may perceive the regional as the lesser match. Ultimately this can all be resolved, but it needs to be given plenty of consideration before it is put into play. The way the restructuring of the regions was first presented was “here are your 2 choices vote A or B”. I feel both are poor choices, and I know many other shooters feel the same way. So I am presenting some other alternatives and various ideas to help with the realignment of the regions. Attached are four maps which I have modified; I think they are much better options than those first provided to us. I like option E followed by C! I will be sending these maps to TG’s and clubs throughout the SW Region. Look this over and let me know what you think, or if you have other alternatives we need to consider. I will be happy to make modifications to my map if you can come up with a better solution. We should all have a say-so here. This is an extremely important agenda item, as it will significantly impact all shooters who travel, so I am trying to make sure it gets all the attention it deserves. Sincerely, Whiskey Kid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straight Arrow Hombre Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 I should have been more clear. I should have said I don't recall the dissolution of the divisional matches being an option. As far as their affect on regional matches, we should get the input of the club hosting the regional match adjacent to a divisional match. They would be the most affected. Has your regional been adversely affected by a divisional match? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 The problem is we have half as many shooters as we did 12 years or so ago, with twice the number of multiple day matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straight Arrow Hombre Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 The problem is we have half as many shooters as we did 12 years or so ago, with twice the number of multiple day matches. Yep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lefty Lobo Lee SASS #40314 Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 Where can maps A & B be found? If I get the jist of this realignment, there are currently 8 regions. Correct? It would appear then that only item #9 is the only item the holds the key to all other issues. ("in theory") So my best guess at the answer would be that fewer regions is what is being looked at. 4 to 6 regions will most likely be the final outcome to make that happen. I am not saying this is what I want to happen, just a thought where this is where others feel it best to go in that direction. Anyone remember why you went to that first "big" match? Some will, but you went back to see that pard you became fiends with! So in the scope of the "big" picture it wouldn't matter how it turns out, pards always find someway to get together at some match. It's people that matter, not some line in the sand. Lefty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two Spurs Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 I must be missing something... How am I qualified to have any say-so in what happens in another division other than what affects my own? How am I off base on that one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whiskey Kid Posted October 13, 2016 Author Share Posted October 13, 2016 Where can maps A & B be found? If I get the jist of this realignment, there are currently 8 regions. Correct? It would appear then that only item #9 is the only item the holds the key to all other issues. ("in theory") So my best guess at the answer would be that fewer regions is what is being looked at. 4 to 6 regions will most likely be the final outcome to make that happen. I am not saying this is what I want to happen, just a thought where this is where others feel it best to go in that direction. Anyone remember why you went to that first "big" match? Some will, but you went back to see that pard you became fiends with! So in the scope of the "big" picture it wouldn't matter how it turns out, pards always find someway to get together at some match. It's people that matter, not some line in the sand. Lefty Here you go! They were on here, but not sure where they went. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Too Tall Bob Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 Why not just have Local, State and National championship matches. Drop regional and divisional ones. Eliminates all the issues of who belongs where or how to carve up the map to try and satisfy everyone. Call your match what you wish. If it is a good one, folks will still attend and have fun. Just my $.02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackaroo, # 29989 Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 I think some kind of a point system could be a good idea and possibly help to increase participation at larger matches. But unless I'm misunderstanding....... I HATE the idea of Buying Points.... Thats even worse than Buying Misses! I think some kind of a point system could be a good idea and possibly help to increase participation at larger matches. But unless I'm misunderstanding....... I HATE the idea of Buying Points.... Thats even worse than Buying Misses! Agree SS I don't think any shooter is into buying a championship, points or otherwise,?? I don't even buy frequent flyer points for goodness sake, I EARN them. You go to matches and earn them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Bone SASS #36388 Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 If you like the match your going to please continue going. If you like to travel, drive on. If you really plan on going to a match, the distance, cost of fuel, price of shot shells or peanuts at a road side park., do not determine or change most shooters minds much at all. What matters to most is???? I'm going to meet up with my friends, We just love it there, I like the color of leaves in the fall, or I just want to go to my favorite shoot. See no matter how you spin this new map, shooters will go to the shoot because they want to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackwater 53393 Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 If you like the match your going to please continue going. If you like to travel, drive on. If you really plan on going to a match, the distance, cost of fuel, price of shot shells or peanuts at a road side park., do not determine or change most shooters minds much at all. What matters to most is???? I'm going to meet up with my friends, We just love it there, I like the color of leaves in the fall, or I just want to go to my favorite shoot. See no matter how you spin this new map, shooters will go to the shoot because they want to. Gotta' agree with T-Bone here!! I've been to two independent matches this year that out drew all but a couple of the regionals and my own state match over the last three years has out drawn or matched all but four of the regionals over that same period!! There's another match coming up in a couple of weeks that regularly does the same. I said my piece over on the other thread about this and if anyone is interested in the thoughts of a low income, retired, "have to be careful how I spend my dollar", regular participant, they can read 'em over there. I WILL repeat one thing I said over there. To paraphrase, "IF YOU DO IT RIGHT, THEY WILL COME!!!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackaroo, # 29989 Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 If you like the match your going to please continue going. If you like to travel, drive on. If you really plan on going to a match, the distance, cost of fuel, price of shot shells or peanuts at a road side park., do not determine or change most shooters minds much at all. What matters to most is???? I'm going to meet up with my friends, We just love it there, I like the color of leaves in the fall, or I just want to go to my favorite shoot. See no matter how you spin this new map, shooters will go to the shoot because they want to. Big +1 here T Bone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackaroo, # 29989 Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 Instead of west and east divs how about north and south divs, then it will be on!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sloe Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 Instead of west and east divs how about north and south divs, then it will be on!! Now that's going to get some traction or at least some smiles. BS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 Why not just have Local, State and National championship matches. Drop regional and divisional ones. Eliminates all the issues of who belongs where or how to carve up the map to try and satisfy everyone. Call your match what you wish. If it is a good one, folks will still attend and have fun. Just my $.02 Because SASS gets cash from matches above the state level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Too Tall Bob Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 Instead of west and east divs how about north and south divs, then it will be on!! I think I will make some popcorn and get a rootbeer and watch this cat fight grow! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 Because SASS gets cash from matches above the state level. I'm sure the SASS administrative fee of $5 per shooter at sanctioned matches was a major factor in setting up the Divisionals. (see post #71) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Coyote, SASS #63736 Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 Because SASS gets cash from matches above the state level. SASS gets $5.00/shooter AT THE STATE LEVEL too. Sure paid $5 in the Eldorado Nevada State Championship recently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 I'm sure the SASS administrative fee of $5 per shooter at sanctioned matches was a major factor in setting up the Divisionals. (see post #71) The divisional matches were ill conceived and not too well thought out. When first announced at a match back East, there was to be an East Coast Divisional championship and a West coast Divisional championship called Winter Range. No more US national championship, from Divisionals you go next to EOT. As you can imagine, that did not fly well. So they came up with a shoot in California that was scheduled the same weekend as the Arizona State Championship. $5 per shooter does add up when you look at all the attendees at Regionals, Divisional matches and of course State championships. Do the Wild Bunch and Black Powder equivalent state and above matches also provide $5 per shooter, I do not know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Jack Daniels,58780 Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 How does this map of proposed regions look? It keeps the Midwest Region intact, as that is the wishes of the shooters of this region. It also addresses the requests of the other states that wish to move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinch Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 Personally I don't like any Regional setup that puts Utah in California. Nothing against California but it just doesn't seem like the right region. Putting states east of the Mississippi in "southwest" is gonna confuse my Navajo jewelry maker friends for sure... I kinda like the north vs south deal other than us folks that have cold fingers all winter are challenged by having to thaw out and commence to relearning to shoot stages each spring. Maybe time zone regions are the answer? Or adding the northwest to the west? Or putting Montana, the Dakotas, Wyoming, Colorado and Utah into the Rocky High Plains where there could be an actual 2100 shooters in that Region. Oh well I will see what the club says in the morning... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whiskey Kid Posted October 18, 2016 Author Share Posted October 18, 2016 How does this map of proposed regions look? It keeps the Midwest Region intact, as that is the wishes of the shooters of this region. It also addresses the requests of the other states that wish to move. Post 83 shows the SASS proposed regions. Post 42 shows some additional items i suggested. WK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oklahoma Dee Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 Here is a thought. Currently any SASS registered shooter, in good standing, can attend just about any of of the local, state, regional, divisional, national and world championship matches. Some states and the Regional and Divisional championships limit the category winner to that particular state, region or division. A shooter has to have a current address within the outlines of that State, Region or Division, in order to win that category championship. Whereas, the National and World Championships open it to all SASS registered shooters from anywhere worldwide. No restrictions. My suggestion is to open the Regional and Divisional championships category winners to any current SASS registered shooter in good standing from any current address worldwide. For example, this would allow someone that is on the outside lines of a Regional or Divisional grouping, to attend that match due to a number of differing factors, such as....it being closer, a group of friends/shooters they prefer, weather, time of year, family school timeframe, cost factors, vacation travel trips, living outside the USA, etc....and they would be able to win that category regardless of their current address. or whichever region or division they are grouped in, just like the SASS National and World Championships currently do. This would allow more flexible scheduling for a larger group of shooters to attend a wider number of desired shoots. Oklahoma Dee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Bone SASS #36388 Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 You got it going on Dee. Great idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yusta B. Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 What's the point in calling them Regional & Divisional shoots if the winning shooters don't represent a Region or Division ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assassin Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 Here is a thought. Currently any SASS registered shooter, in good standing, can attend just about any of of the local, state, regional, divisional, national and world championship matches. Some states and the Regional and Divisional championships limit the category winner to that particular state, region or division. A shooter has to have a current address within the outlines of that State, Region or Division, in order to win that category championship. Whereas, the National and World Championships open it to all SASS registered shooters from anywhere worldwide. No restrictions. My suggestion is to open the Regional and Divisional championships category winners to any current SASS registered shooter in good standing from any current address worldwide. For example, this would allow someone that is on the outside lines of a Regional or Divisional grouping, to attend that match due to a number of differing factors, such as....it being closer, a group of friends/shooters they prefer, weather, time of year, family school timeframe, cost factors, vacation travel trips, living outside the USA, etc....and they would be able to win that category regardless of their current address. or whichever region or division they are grouped in, just like the SASS National and World Championships currently do. This would allow more flexible scheduling for a larger group of shooters to attend a wider number of desired shoots. Oklahoma Dee I feel this would open the door for "cherry picking." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrel Cody Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 I feel this would open the door for "cherry picking." Something wrong with "cherry picking"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 What's the point in calling them Regional & Divisional shoots if the winning shooters don't represent a Region or Division ? This is my thought too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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