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Divisional championships and regional realignment


Whiskey Kid

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Has the creation of the divisional championships watered down the regionals and been the ultimate cause for SASS to feel they need realignment? What do you say?

 

 

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We don't need to speculate. Misty provided SASS' reasons in this post: http://www.sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=256236

 

I take Misty's words at face value.

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I think it is our responsibility to question our leaders! Or would you just prefer to go along for the ride even if you felt it isn't going to be a good one?

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Possibly the easiest solution would be to find a club that could host the Central Divisional. it seems a lot of this realignment talk came about from Sparta closing... just my $0.02

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Possibly the easiest solution would be to find a club that could host the Central Divisional. it seems a lot of this realignment talk came about from Sparta closing... just my $0.02

Don't forget the north east does not have a regional. That I could be an easy fix if another club steps forward.

 

EMN

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Has the creation of the divisional championships watered down the regionals and been the ultimate cause for SASS to feel they need realignment? What do you say?

 

From my perspective, the eastern divisional hasn't made a difference. It's geographically far enough away that most folks that I shoot with in this part of the country don't attend it. I think most big matches will be attended not for their title, but more so based on cost, distance, and the quality of the match. My favorite match which is Gunsmoke, has never been "my" match. Not my state and now that it's a regional, not my region. I'll continue to patronize matches based on their quality and the people that attend them.
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To much of a so called "good thing". As far as I see it, State Championships, Nationals, and World Championships, are all that most people can find time to attend, and/or afford. The rest is just "fluff", that takes away from the local shoots and adds a lot of unnecessary expense to the participation in the Sport.

 

Too many clubs going broke, mostly from lack of participation. Bolstering the participation at the locals will go a long ways in preventing the loss of local shooting venues. It is far more important that we spend sufficient dollars supporting the local shoots, than spending significant amounts of time and money, attending the "Fluff", unnecessary progression shoots.

 

That's the view from my saddle. RBK

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Possibly the easiest solution would be to find a club that could host the Central Divisional. it seems a lot of this realignment talk came about from Sparta closing... just my $0.02

This would have and possibly should have been the first choice!

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This would have and possibly should have been the first choice!

Does anyone really thing that there is a chance nobody on the wild bunch thought of that? I don't know what their reasons were for not finding another place to host it but I am fairly certain that there is some reason behind their actions.

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Personally I don't think the Central Division should have been scrapped at all, and all of those shooters just lumped in with the western div.

The Central Division should still be there just postponed until a club could be found to host it, and all the shooters in that division given the opportunity to either choose to go to the western or eastern divisional until that time.

Kathouse Kelli and myself had chosen to go to Mason-Dixon the eastern divisional, before it was cancelled. It's also 30 miles closer to us than the western Divisonal from OKC where we are, but only worked that out after.

Kelli won overall lady, but by being out of division is not recognised as the divisional champ. That's fine, we realise this, but it would have been nice to have an option in the light of the sudden cancellation of the central to choose either.

I'm sure there would be many shooters who would go to the western divisional even now if the lived further west than we are, and those further east, go east.

One other point I'd like to make, is that for all these regionals, divisional series etc,. For them to work successfully, the closer it can be held to the centre of the area, the better, notwithstanding this may not always be the case, maybe we should try, and see if it works.

But as I've said in another post we can't please all the people all the time.

Finally whatever...happens I think SASS is doing an outstanding job, and have my support with whatever outcome eventuates, cause without them, as Deuce has said in another post, this game is my life at present, and I try to spend as much time here in the USA as we can, and if US immigration would grant us permanent residence that would be a dream come true.

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Does anyone really thing that there is a chance nobody on the wild bunch thought of that? I don't know what their reasons were for not finding another place to host it but I am fairly certain that there is some reason behind their actions.

As far as know, SASS did not contact the Powder Creek Cowboys to discuss hosting the central division.

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Personally I don't think the Central Division should have been scrapped at all, and all of those shooters just lumped in with the western div.

The Central Division should still be there just postponed until a club could be found to host it, and all the shooters in that division given the opportunity to either choose to go to the western or eastern divisional until that time.

Kathouse Kelli and myself had chosen to go to Mason-Dixon the eastern divisional, before it was cancelled. It's also 30 miles closer to us than the western Divisonal from OKC where we are, but only worked that out after.

Kelli won overall lady, but by being out of division is not recognised as the divisional champ. That's fine, we realise this, but it would have been nice to have an option in the light of the sudden cancellation of the central to choose either.

I'm sure there would be many shooters who would go to the western divisional even now if the lived further west than we are, and those further east, go east.

One other point I'd like to make, is that for all these regionals, divisional series etc,. For them to work successfully, the closer it can be held to the centre of the area, the better, notwithstanding this may not always be the case, maybe we should try, and see if it works.

But as I've said in another post we can't please all the people all the time.

Finally whatever...happens I think SASS is doing an outstanding job, and have my support with whatever outcome eventuates, cause without them, as Deuce has said in another post, this game is my life at present, and I try to spend as much time here in the USA as we can, and if US immigration would grant us permanent residence that would be a dream come true.

If the western Divisional were any closer to the center of the division, it would be somewhere in the Pacific Ocean...just sayin'

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Does anyone really thing that there is a chance nobody on the wild bunch thought of that? I don't know what their reasons were for not finding another place to host it but I am fairly certain that there is some reason behind their actions.

Yes, I think they chose that option because it made drawing a line down the center of the country easier for the divisional map. The regional maps need to have precedence over the divisional make up, period! Believe it or not, to most shooters the broader the scope the match covers the smaller the pool of shooters you draw from.

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Yes, I think they chose that option because it made drawing a line down the center of the country easier for the divisional map. The regional maps need to have precedence over the divisional make up, period! Believe it or not, to most shooters the broader the scope the match covers the smaller the pool of shooters you draw from.

The Regional map does take priority over the divisional structure, for what it's worth.

 

Misty

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The Regional map does take priority over the divisional structure, for what it's worth.

 

Misty

Great! This is good information that we all want to hear! I am working on some maps and number data to give to our TG's and will be happy to post it hear as well. I wish I had attendance numbers over the past few years to the various matches compiled to work with as well, but I will work with what I can gather for our region.

 

Also, please understand I know you are working hard on this and I appreciate that fact! You have a difficult job for sure!

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Great! This is good information that we all want to hear! I am working on some maps and number data to give to our TG's and will be happy to post it hear as well. I wish I had attendance numbers over the past few years to the various matches compiled to work with as well, but I will work with what I can gather for our region.

 

Also, please understand I know you are working hard on this and I appreciate that fact! You have a difficult job for sure!

 

The average attendance at all 8 Regionals (last 2-3 years) are:

- Northwest: 100

- Midwest: 250

- Southwest: 250

- Southeast: 200

- Four Corners: 120

- Northeast: 120

- Western: 300

- Mideast: 175

 

Misty

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We looked really hard at A and B during our long drive home last weekend. This question came up more than once in the ensuing discussion.

 

The Northwest Region has no connection to anything east of Idaho, and barely there. We love seeing people from over there, but it's super rare. If you put all 11 states into the region, you'll have more total shooters in it, but no more shooters at the match. If you put the match in the population centers of OR or WA, Shooters in the Dakotas or Nebraska aren't going to go that far, it's even farther for them than it is from us to the div in SoCal. It's over 20 road hours from here to the Dakotas/Nebraska and with the Rockies the match can't be held when cold hampers travel in the north. If you put it in Colorado, many OR and WA shooters won't make a trip that long. Same end result.

 

The only functional option is "A" which keeps the 3 states in the NW Region and gives the guys east of the Rockies their own. Especially with the Divisional structure the way it is.

 

This brings us to the topic of the thread.

 

It's over 1200 miles from Portland to the Western Div. We're about to pack up and go next week... but the travel schedule for the sanctioned matches as they stand now is nearly breaking us. The Regional in Wenatchee WA was the closest to us in Portland at 5+ hours which isn't too bad. The Div is almost as far as Winter Range at 1200+ miles and 19+ hours of driving time. For the shooters in northern WA it's REALLY long. If the regional match gets any farther away than it is now, we will be forced to drop going to either the regional or divisional. It's just simple time and economics.

 

My point is this: If we must have more shooters in the competition pool at regional and above matches and if we must put more states together then I can only think of two options that really put the amount of travel and expense into reasonable levels:

 

1) Make the regional map 5 big regions. There's a couple of ways to do that and have around 5000 members per region and have no divisionals. That means that even though we'll all have to travel far for the regional we don't have to do it AGAIN for the divs. That leaves more time and money to try to go to the Nationals and EOT.

 

2) The other way is to go even more extreme... eliminate the regionals entirely and have 3 divisionals. But then the areas become so huge, you may not even be shooting with any people you know or feel connected to it like regionals are.

 

A lot of good people have dogs in the fight and good matches on the line and doing either one of these would cause a lot of heartache so I don't expect it to happen, but right now we have too many sanctioned matches to consistently draw 300+ at any of them except in the mega southwest and no good way forward to fix it.

 

But the current system, while I love all the people and the matches the sanctioned match list is too deep to even contemplate making them all in one year.

 

Is there currently a reason we MUST have 250+ at these matches? Is it necessarily a failure if a region isn't drawing the same numbers as others?

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We looked really hard at A and B during our long drive home last weekend. This question came up more than once in the ensuing discussion.

 

The Northwest Region has no connection to anything east of Idaho, and barely there. We love seeing people from over there, but it's super rare. If you put all 11 states into the region, you'll have more total shooters in it, but no more shooters at the match. If you put the match in the population centers of OR or WA, Shooters in the Dakotas or Nebraska aren't going to go that far, it's even farther for them than it is from us to the div in SoCal. It's over 20 road hours from here to the Dakotas/Nebraska and with the Rockies the match can't be held when cold hampers travel in the north. If you put it in Colorado, many OR and WA shooters won't make a trip that long. Same end result.

 

The only functional option is "A" which keeps the 3 states in the NW Region and gives the guys east of the Rockies their own. Especially with the Divisional structure the way it is.

 

This brings us to the topic of the thread.

 

It's over 1200 miles from Portland to the Western Div. We're about to pack up and go next week... but the travel schedule for the sanctioned matches as they stand now is nearly breaking us. The Regional in Wenatchee WA was the closest to us in Portland at 5+ hours which isn't too bad. The Div is almost as far as Winter Range at 1200+ miles and 19+ hours of driving time. For the shooters in northern WA it's REALLY long. If the regional match gets any farther away than it is now, we will be forced to drop going to either the regional or divisional. It's just simple time and economics.

 

My point is this: If we must have more shooters in the competition pool at regional and above matches and if we must put more states together then I can only think of two options that really put the amount of travel and expense into reasonable levels:

 

1) Make the regional map 5 big regions. There's a couple of ways to do that and have around 5000 members per region and have no divisionals. That means that even though we'll all have to travel far for the regional we don't have to do it AGAIN for the divs. That leaves more time and money to try to go to the Nationals and EOT.

 

2) The other way is to go even more extreme... eliminate the regionals entirely and have 3 divisionals. But then the areas become so huge, you may not even be shooting with any people you know or feel connected to it like regionals are.

 

A lot of good people have dogs in the fight and good matches on the line and doing either one of these would cause a lot of heartache so I don't expect it to happen, but right now we have too many sanctioned matches to consistently draw 300+ at any of them except in the mega southwest and no good way forward to fix it.

 

But the current system, while I love all the people and the matches the sanctioned match list is too deep to even contemplate making them all in one year.

 

Is there currently a reason we MUST have 250+ at these matches? Is it necessarily a failure if a region isn't drawing the same numbers as others?

Very good point Fast Enough. The current Midwest region is working for North and South Dakota very well. Neither A nor B will work for us. Why disrupt our region to cure something else. Any change will likely decrease participation rather than increase it. Our divisional is over 1600 miles away. I will spend my resources to attend WR or EOT both of which are closer

MCJ

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The average attendance at all 8 Regionals (last 2-3 years) are:

- Northwest: 100

- Midwest: 250

- Southwest: 250

- Southeast: 200

- Four Corners: 120

- Northeast: 120

- Western: 300

- Mideast: 175

 

Misty

 

Some club monthly shoots approach a couple of these regional attendance numbers.

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Very good point Fast Enough. The current Midwest region is working for North and South Dakota very well. Neither A nor B will work for us. Why disrupt our region to cure something else. Any change will likely decrease participation rather than increase it. Our divisional is over 1600 miles away. I will spend my resources to attend WR or EOT both of which are closer

MCJ

+1

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The regional shoots should be more flexible and allow shooters to go to their closest shoot. They can still be called regional shoots, however if one lives closer to one shoot than another they should be allowed to move to the neighboring shoot that is closest to them. In Cheyenne our annual shoot is highly attended by Coloradans, many live less than 100 miles away and they frequent our monthly matches. Yet, they are in a different region. Same with guys in N.& S. Dakota, depending where they live in their states it's closer to go to another regional. Perhaps, we should have a clause for neighboring states and allow some shooters to cross over the boundaries. The western states are rather large and that needs to be considered.

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Posted · Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, October 7, 2016 - Mildly insulting
Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, October 7, 2016 - Mildly insulting

...highly attended by Coloradans, ...

 

You mean some folks partake of the legal pot and come up to shoot? :D

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I like the discussion! I think is helpful and important! Specifically from those that DO travel to matches. After all, I think the majority of shooters never travel beyond a 150 mile radius of their home club.

 

With that in mind, think about this:

 

Perhaps the thought of having more shooters in the region therefore more shooters at the match is backwards! I feel it has diminishing returns myself! By growing the area of the regional larger you increase the total number of shooters in that area, but you increase the average distance of travel for that match as well. This drives up the cost of attendance both monetarily and the time invested for travel and vacation. Lets say you have a region that has 100 shooters showing up to the match, thought would be if we double the size of the regional attendance would go up, and it may, but not by huge numbers. Lets use 50 for grins, but now you eliminated another regional that had 100 shooters also, so now you your total attendance for the same "area" is 150, a substantial decrease. How about going the other way. You increase the number of regionals, therefor decreasing travel time and expenses. Shooters that wouldn't previously make the shoot now can. so again we start with that 150 number but now we add a regional so there are 3 instead of 2. lets say 25 shooters don't go to each of the other matches because there is a regional closer to them, but more local shooters can now make the closer regional so you now have 3 matches with 75 shooters each. Total shooters attending a regional in the same "area" is now 225, an increase in the total number of shooters that attended a SASS sanctioned shoot in that area and I suspect this number would be higher because the shoots are regional.

 

 

Perhaps growing the size of the region will not increase the overall attendance at all! I think it will be the opposite! Give shooters more options to shoot sanctioned matches, that are closer to home, and overall attendance to them WILL go up! Its hard to take all those extra days away from home to make a big match!

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[quote name="Whiskey_Kid" post="3329876" timestamp="1475852228.

 

 

Give shooters more options to shoot sanctioned matches, that are closer to home, and overall attendance to them WILL go up! Its hard to take all those extra days away from home to make a big match!

 

Shooters already have this choice. Shooters shoot the matches they enjoy - period. Designation of it being any sanctioned match in the structure rarely persuades a shooter to attend. Any SASS member can shoot any match at any level, with no prequalifications to do so.

And that's a beautiful thing!

I want to make sure I understand you....Perhaps what you are suggesting is some sort of official "declaration" by the shooter to designate their Regional championship of choice? I can see this as a possibility for neighboring region states (border states)... but I am also forced to consider the tracking/administrative end of it as being a challenge...

 

I, too- am grateful for this discussion; particularly- thanks to all of you for being positive and constructive in your suggestions and comments.

This is how we get things done!

 

Misty

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Shooters already have this choice. Shooters shoot the matches they enjoy - period. Designation of it being any sanctioned match in the structure rarely persuades a shooter to attend. Any SASS member can shoot any match at any level, with no prequalifications to do so.

And that's a beautiful thing!

I want to make sure I understand you....Perhaps what you are suggesting is some sort of official "declaration" by the shooter to designate their Regional championship of choice? I can see this as a possibility for neighboring region states (border states)... but I am also forced to consider the tracking/administrative end of it as being a challenge...

 

I, too- am grateful for this discussion; particularly- thanks to all of you for being positive and constructive in your suggestions and comments.

This is how we get things done!

 

Misty

Well yes you can shoot the match of your choice, and We do! However, I am speaking specifically to the attendance of regional matches. If you create more regions instead of less, shooters don't have to travel as far to reach their regional match so more shooters are willing and able to attend a regional match. Your overall attendance goes up! Each match's attendance may go down slightly but total participants will increase!

 

Not everyone is willing to drive 8 hours to attend a regional match, but if you make those regions smaller a lot more are willing to drive 4 or 5.

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Whiskey, I agree, in theory, with what you're saying....

 

But if you look at the numbers Misty put up for the last 2-3 years,

it looks like many Regionals are struggling to attract participants.

 

So is More really the answer?

Plus, there has to be Clubs ready & willing to take on the monumental task of hosting a Regional.

 

And YES, I agree that the Divisional's are an extra level that is not needed and have taken away from some Regionals

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I see no need for divisionals,,, and i like the A map... less regionals, well, back to what it used to be..

 

I go to shoots that I really like or have heard great things about.. but driving 12-14 hours is tough...but I've done it for a good shoot

 

and the people are a very very large part of using that much time and money for a weekend

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I think we should be eligible for state championship by home club instead of state where you live. Let people declare their home club and whatever state it is located in is your state match. Only one home club per member.

 

This would also work on regional let the each member pick their regional without regard of state they live in or state of home club. This could be allowed to be changed on yearly basis only.

 

Divisional probaby needs to be done away with right now.

 

I think freedom of choice would go a long way on attendance.

 

Just a thought.

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The concept of "Divisional" and/or "Regional" matches is of no interest to me. I go to shoots based on the match directors first. Then flavor of the shoot which does feed back somewhat to the match director. Driving distance. My main "big" matches are at the Bar-3 with T-Bone, Black Gold with Copperhead Joe and Wooloroc with ITSASS. For those unfamiliar with Wooloroc it is a nasty throwback match with a 10-12 shotgun stage and some rifle targets to 110 yards. I am also a fan of Smoking Guns at Rabbit Ridge, Bayou Blast, Hell on the Border, Shooting in the Shade, Prince of Pistoleers and LandRun. The latter group I work in as is possible due to conflicts, life and finances. Then I have 3 monthly clubs I belong to and a couple of others I attend.

Moving me from one District/Regional to another will not in any way affect my shooting.

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I too go to a match based on its reputation not whether it is a divisional or regional. I have gone to more regional/divisional matches outside of my own than in. I think you should ditch the divisionals.

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I too go to a match based on its reputation not whether it is a divisional or regional. I have gone to more regional/divisional matches outside of my own than in. I think you should ditch the divisionals.

 

Respectfully, if you don't care whether a match is a regional/divisional, why do you personally want to see the divisional matches done away with?

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I'm with Noz, Renegade Roper, and SAH!! I go to matches where I like the match and where they entertain me!! Good stages, good friends, good food, and a good welcome are far more important to me than what state, region, or division they affiliate with.

 

I'll never be a top shooter, but I've done my share of winning when it comes to buckles, plaques, and trinkets. I've even stumbled around and won a couple of state championships and, once or twice, even a category overall or two!!

 

I couldn't care less if it's a certain region or division!!!

 

As far as a national ranking system to place you in a regional or divisional.....................AW HELL NO!!!

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How about a World point system. Simple!!! A shooter receives points for going to the match ,additional points for elevated wins. Every Monday morning the person in charge of scoring at the match will send in to the sass headquarters and by Friday morning everyone would know the World standard scoring points system. If the match would like,, for an additional fee they could buy multiple points. This would let shooters decide to chase points and become the Worlds point Champion. Go to the match's you want and everyone is a winner.

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I think some kind of a point system could be a good idea and possibly help to increase participation at larger matches.

 

But unless I'm misunderstanding....... I HATE the idea of Buying Points.... Thats even worse than Buying Misses!

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The match would buy points from SASS for an additional fee. Say your match attendance is down and you opt to buy 2x or 3x points. A cowboy chasing points will attend the larger match offering extra points. Lot of details that could be worked out. Just a crazy idea that is used by several other event venues.

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