Divisional championships and regional realignment

[Casey Green]

How about a World point system. Simple!!! A shooter receives points for going to the match ,additional points for elevated wins. Every Monday morning the person in charge of scoring at the match will send in to the sass headquarters and by Friday morning everyone would know the World standard scoring points system. If the match would like,, for an additional fee they could buy multiple points. This would let shooters decide to chase points and become the Worlds point Champion. Go to the match's you want and everyone is a winner.

This was discussed earlier in either this thread or the other thread about divisionals. The problem is there are too many variations from match to match as far as target sizes/distances, prop use, shooting strings etc. that there would not be an equal playing field and certain shooters would undoubtedly abuse the system...i.e. picking "easier" matches, etc.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

let me say this, I am not a rich man by any means, comfortable because we've always been careful, yes. No cable and such...

 

If I come to your match it is the highest compliment that I can offer you. What do I expect at a match?

 

To be treated with respect and fairly..

 

The rules to be followed and applied evenly to all.

 

Fun, lots of fun!!

 

Good stages, a variety in them too.

 

Good food, and plenty of it.

 

Good vendors, that are treated well too.

 

No favoritism, in any area.

 

just my 2 cents

[T-Bone SASS #36388]

True true so true.

[Jackrabbit Joe #414]

Ditto, Ditto, Ditto Cheyenne Culpepper & T-Bone True so true..

[Renegade Roper]

SAH,

Maybe I didn't articulate my reason very well in my earlier post. I dont care if a match is annual, state, regional, divisional, etc because what matters is how well it's run, the stages being fun,fair and safe, the people, etc. I think by having too many big matches (aside from your monthlies) you take the chance of loosing shooters as we cant attend all of them so you have to pick & choose. You also put more demands on clubs to host these matches at a top level. For example our club decided it wasn't worth trying to host the Northeast Regional because we already get more shooters at the NYS match than the regional did and it would only potentially detract from our State shoot. We put alot of time & effort to put on one of the best shoots & that means alot of manpower. People only have so much "free" time to donate to the club to build new & exciting props that draw shooters in, to do setup & take down, to help run side matches, to get sponsors, donors, vendors, awards,etc. There is alot that goes into making a great shoot a great shoot that people want to come back to. We have a large group of cowboys/girls that work to make our state shoot the great shoot it is, and in our area I see the clubs that dont have this dedicated manpower getting fewer & fewer shooters & the people themselves burning out. In other areas maybe this isnt the case. Just my opinion.

 

Also in our case we keep meeting more & more nice people that tell us about the great shoots in their area & invite us to come see. Being that we arent retired & only have so much time we can take off we have eliminated alot of the bigger "local" matches in our area to shoot with our southern & western pards. So I guess you could also blame it on the nice people we have met at these away shoots. At least thats my story & I'm sticking to it.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

I vote no to a point system. IMO that would be worse than using Rank point scoring.

 

I prefer total time based on a match you attend.. Keep it simple!

[Griff]

{deleted} Noz is right. Those matches that offer something besides a title will succeed.

[Whiskey Kid]

Okay, so I wanted to post some additional maps so we weren't just talking and not actually showing some solutions or options, depending on how you look at it. My personal preference would be Option E, but truthfully, I'm okay with anything the leaves Texas, Louisiana, Arkansas and Oklahoma together as I feel they are a natural fit. I made the other maps to show some options in other areas of the country where I am not the most familiar with the dynamics of their matches and how they travel.

 

WK

 

 

Math is corrected

[Desert Pete SASS #42168]

Yup, E

[Snakebite]

E

[Happy Jack, SASS #20451]

I like E

[Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L]

I like E also as it seems to preserve the, let’s call them "Natural Boundaries", whether social or geographical better than the other options and with two exceptions, the Northwest and the Southwest regions, it keeps the SASS population relatively well balanced.

 

But there is another factor that plays into this of which many folks may not be aware. Each Regional is obligated to accept two free entries from each of the states in the region, i.e. State Top Male and State Top Female. Each of the Divisional matches must likewise accept two free entries from each of the Regions in their division. There is a pretty significant disparity in the number of states included in each region and the subsequent number of free entries they must accept. This is particularly true in the Northeast Region.

Eastern Division 6 Free Entries
Northeast 26 Free Entries
Southeast 14 Free Entries
Mid-West 16 Free Entries

Western Division 10 Free Entries
Southwest 12 Free Entries
High Plains 10 Free Entries
Four Corners 8 Free Entries
Northwest 8 Free Entries
Western 6 Free Entries

While nothing new, it’s been the policy at least since 2003 when I got involved helping with our State Match, it does present a significant financial burden to the clubs that put on those matches. Even if the NE Regional were to return to its heyday of drawing 400 shooters, that is 6.5% of the match entries that are comped.

That being said, I still like the map. I just wanted to point out that there are issues that need to be considered in addition to those dealing with local rivalries and state boundaries.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

I like E also as it seems to preserve the, let’s call them "Natural Boundaries", whether social or geographical better than the other options and with two exceptions, the Northwest and the Southwest regions, it keeps the SASS population relatively well balanced.

 

But there is another factor that plays into this of which many folks may not be aware. Each Regional is obligated to accept two free entries from each of the states in the region, i.e. State Top Male and State Top Female. Each of the Divisional matches must likewise accept two free entries from each of the Regions in their division. There is a pretty significant disparity in the number of states included in each region and the subsequent number of free entries they must accept. This is particularly true in the Northeast Region.

Eastern Division 6 Free Entries

Northeast 26 Free Entries

Southeast 14 Free Entries

Mid-West 16 Free Entries

 

Western Division 10 Free Entries

Southwest 12 Free Entries

High Plains 10 Free Entries

Four Corners 8 Free Entries

Northwest 8 Free Entries

Western 6 Free Entries

While nothing new, it’s been the policy at least since 2003 when I got involved helping with our State Match, it does present a significant financial burden to the clubs that put on those matches. Even if the NE Regional were to return to its heyday of drawing 400 shooters, that is 6.5% of the match entries that are comped.

 

That being said, I still like the map. I just wanted to point out that there are issues that need to be considered in addition to those dealing with local rivalries and state boundaries.

 

I'd mentioned this on the other thread...but it probably isn't a concern to anyone who is not a match organizer/director...other than the fact that a club/match that is actually losing money on an event can't/won't continue doing so indefinitely.

The other option would be to raise the price for the "rank & file" participants to cover the "free" entries...which can also be counterproductive in the long run.

 

See post # 27

[Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L]

Allie Mo,

 

How about merging the two threads on this subject? Much of the material at this point is being rehashed on both threads and the reason for the start of the second thread by Whiskey Kid seems to have been resolved.

 

Just my $0.02,

 

Dogmeat Dad

 

 

I'd mentioned this on the other thread...but it probably isn't a concern to anyone who is not a match organizer/director...other than the fact that a club/match that is actually losing money on an event can't/won't continue doing so indefinitely.

The other option would be to raise the price for the "rank & file" participants to cover the "free" entries...which can also be counterproductive in the long run.

 

See post # 27

 

I guess I missed that one. Funny though, the last post I made was in that thread requesting Allie Mo merge the two threads. I was going to post it here as also, but was time-blocked. Just came back to do it.

 

Yep, not a concern for most, but I do think it's important that they rank and file have the facts. Sometimes folks make assumptions based on incomplete information leading to heated arguments that in the end, could have been easily avoided.

[Blue Wolf , SASS# 29424L]

Just looking at a map doesn't help. You can draw lines over it anyway you want. It needs to be looked at from where did the participants come from for every state and regional match. This will tell the area from which that match should market. Then draw the lines.

 

SASS should be able compile this info and figure out a proposal from there. Then get input with the clubs involved from there.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Option E looks good. I'm in CA and would like to see folks from Utah and AZ at our Regional. I'm not sure it would be a manageable size.

 

All of the others have flaws; but they don't affect me.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Allie Mo,

 

How about merging the two threads on this subject? Much of the material at this point is being rehashed on both threads and the reason for the start of the second thread by Whiskey Kid seems to have been resolved.

 

Just my $0.02,

 

Dogmeat Dad

 

 

I guess I missed that one. Funny though, the last post I made was in that thread requesting Allie Mo merge the two threads. I was going to post it here as also, but was time-blocked. Just came back to do it.

 

Yep, not a concern for most, but I do think it's important that they rank and file have the facts. Sometimes folks make assumptions based on incomplete information leading to heated arguments that in the end, could have been easily avoided.

Hi Dogmeat,

 

Usually when I merge threads there are minimal posts on each. These have so many replies that will be inserted in the remaining thread in time order. The conversation will no longer flow as posted.

 

So, I'd rather not merge them.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

[Yellowstone Vic SASS#32968]

Ahhh you might want to revisit your math on the High Plains Region in Option E and F.

 

236+135+145+156+209 = 881 not 2153.

[Ventura Slim, SASS #35690]

I will play

[Medicine Creek Johnny]

I fail to understand why all the proposals want to break up the Midwest region. Is it because we have one of the highest attendance figures? Don't make sense to me

MCJ

[Straight Arrow Hombre]

I fail to understand why all the proposals want to break up the Midwest region. Is it because we have one of the highest attendance figures? Don't make sense to me

MCJ

The Mideast is going away and the high plains is coming back and I assume with its previous regional match.

[Assassin]

If shooters live in a border state to a regional they should be allowed to go to the neighboring regional if it is the closest match. That would eliminate some of the logistcs with the state borders. Looking at the proposed High Plains Regional, assuming it were held in Cheyenne, Wyoming, I would not expect shooters to travel from western Montana or the eastern side of N. & S. Dakota, there are closer regionals for them. Coloradans should also be allowed to shoot if the High Plains Region if they choose. By allowing shooters to cross over borders to their closest regional it would increase attendance at all the regionals. The current system isolates many shooters that can't afford to travel long distances, or those that have limited vacation time. The proposed realignment should be the topic of discussion at all the monthly shoots in the next couple of weeks.

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

Our clubs looked at this and said who cares. The people in our clubs who travel to larger matches only go to State, National (WR), and World (EOT). And no one goes to EOT since it moved. A distance thing. No Regionals or Divisional came to mind. It must be a Mid-west or east thing.

 

If you look at the total "active" membership of 25,000 and the number of shoots being offered one can see why attendance is diminishing. Too many shoots, fewer people, and more of the shooters being on fixed incomes limiting their choices. Why go to the rouble and expense of trying to put on a major shoot, Regional, when attendance is declining?

 

Choosing ones region is who goes to mange that? Points, you would have to have rated matches/stages to insure a level playing field. Buying points is like buying mulligans it changes the outcome.

 

This reminds me of Southern California and car shows. As the boomers aged and could afford it more of them bought cars and started going to shows. Then more car clubs, and more shows, and suddenly attendance at shows began to decline because there were too many or people wanted to try a "different" show for a change. Its like here in Reno, NV. Hot August nights annual car show was drawing 12,000 cars each year. There was a 2,000 car waiting list to get into the show. That was good for about 10 years. Now they are down to 7,000 cars, no waiting list and advertising like crazy to get people back. Money, been there done that, and people dropping out of the car show effort has caused the decline.

 

Maybe fewer matches and better bigger matches is the answer? And how about no more free shoots. If thats an issue get rif=d of the issue. Not charge others more to allow a select few to get into the event for free.

Ike

Ike

[Jimmy Reb, SASS #54804]

One of the things to be considered in the Northeast. Those in New England and those from Penn. south are risking jail time and firearm confiscation by traveling through New York. New York does not accept the federal law stating that locked firearms can be transported through the state. This makes it difficult for those in the Northeast. It doesn't matter to me because I cannot take the time off of work to shoot on any weekday. But it is important to those who can go.

[Whiskey Kid]

Ahhh you might want to revisit your math on the High Plains Region in Option E and F.

 

236+135+145+156+209 = 881 not 2153.

Yup, thank you. A couple people have been kind enough to point this out. Lots of cut and paste to make these and I missed one. Oops!

 

The corrected versions will be up soon!

 

WK

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

E, but consider pulling Ky and Va to the Southeast region.

 

Regional matches should be hosted in states with a large shooter population, cutting travel distance for a big percentage of the potential shooters. For example, in a "Four Corners" region, Arizona is the obvious host for a regional, out populating the rest of the states in the region put together.

 

And, discard the divisionals completely. Low attendance figures mean the concept just was not supported well enough. Just my two centavos.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Folks,

 

It seems like the majority of the posters favor no more Divisionals.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

[Barry Sloe]

 

It seems like the majority of the posters favor no more Divisionals.

 

 

Allie

I, for one, agree. There are getting to be too many shoots and many of us have to pick and choose which to shoot. In the long run they all suffer from lower attendance.

 

BS

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

I, for one, agree. There are getting to be too many shoots and many of us have to pick and choose which to shoot. In the long run they all suffer from lower attendance.

 

BS

So why not get rid of state matches? It would have a much larger effect on the numbers.

[Barry Sloe]

So why not get rid of state matches? It would have a much larger effect on the numbers.

 

You mean like say Bordertown, the Arizona State Championship, which just happens to be a week or so from the Divisional?

Bordertown sells out in 5 days. Probably one of the biggest draws for Bordertown is the City of Tombstone welcoming shooters, in costume, to come into town and have a good time.

 

There are state, divisional, regional, national, and world championships. I will again mention local club annual matches, usually two day matches, that local clubs use to raise funds to keep things in repair.

 

Lots of shoots, limited amount of funds and time, and a base of shooters that seems to be growing older.

 

Lots of things to cuss and discuss,

Barry Sloe

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

 

You mean like say Bordertown, the Arizona State Championship, which just happens to be a week or so from the Divisional?

Bordertown sells out in 5 days. Probably one of the biggest draws for Bordertown is the City of Tombstone welcoming shooters, in costume, to come into town and have a good time.

 

There are state, divisional, regional, national, and world championships. I will again mention local club annual matches, usually two day matches, that local clubs use to raise funds to keep things in repair.

 

Lots of shoots, limited amount of funds and time, and a base of shooters that seems to be growing older.

 

Lots of things to cuss and discuss,

Barry Sloe

I am not the one advocating or suggesting that any matches be "done away with". I am just pointing out that getting rid of the Divisional is a non answer to a non problem. If you don't want to go to a match, don't go. I don't go to the store and count shampoo brands and then whine that there are too many, I just buy the one I want and leave. If state matches were done away with, would bordertown cease to exist? I seriously doubt that it would have any real effect on attendance. If the divisional date done away with, the gunfight behind the jersey Lilly will still happen just as it had for years before it carried the divisional title. So really, deleting any sanctioned match from the list other than EOT would have almost no effect on this perceived problem of too many matches causing lower attendance.

[Blue Wolf , SASS# 29424L]

I still think SASS should allow members to choose their state and regional match. My regional next year is in Memphis. It will probably draw from Arkansas & Mississippi which are not in the region. So why not allow members to choose where they want to call their state and regional.

 

This line drawing won't accomplish anything. The name regional could be changed to something not defining geographical location on a map. The members are going to travel to the closest good match anyway. At least allow them to call it theirs and compete as a member of it.

[Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L]

I still think SASS should allow members to choose their state and regional match.

 

Cool, I choose the State of Denial.

[Joe LaFives #5481]

It would make sense to me to have each State's territorial governors poll their clubs and find out which region they would like to belong to. I don't think western states should figure out eastern regions and vis versa. Then ditch the divisionals and you're done.

 

 

 

[Too Tall Bob]

It would make sense to me to have each State's territorial governors poll their clubs and find out which region they would like to belong to. I don't think western states should figure out eastern regions and vis versa. Then ditch the divisionals and you're done.

 

+1 here