My how stage times have changed.....

[Hellgate #3302 L]

I was rummaging through some of my reloading room/shop clutter (my wife says I'm a hoarder) when I came across an old scoresheet from a local club's 1994 annual two day shoot from "way back when". I think at that time we had only a few categories like Traditional, Modern, Duelist and Black Powder. We had 25 shooters from around the state and a couple from other states. What really struck me was looking at the score sheets and the stage times. The TOP SHOOTER had an average stage time (7 stages) right at NINETY (90!) seconds. The average, middle of the road shooter did a stage in 104 seconds. Now, how many clubs are writing 100 second stages? It's pretty obvious we were doing a lot of things other than shooting and were assessing penalties such as a procedural for every shot fired out of order. The nature of the sport has sure changed from Cowboys & Indians, Posses & robbers, etc. to much more abbreviated stages to accommodate the greater number of shooters. The entire two day match was seven stages and a team event. Only about 10 of the 25 are still active shooters. The fastest time on one stage was 125 seconds. Now it's like, 12.5 seconds for some speed demon. I'm not complaining, just noting a little of SASS history from a wrinkled up scoresheet among my many "collectibles".

[ZigMar]

Wow! I should jump in the Way-Back-Machine and go back to the "good old days", I'd be competitive!!!

 

Anyway, thanks for posting.

 

Get that old score-sheet into a frame and hang it up in the shop!

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Heck!

 

I'm not even that slow.

[Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L]

Things change whether you see it as good or bad.

 

When i started teaching in '71 the old timers couldn't see how they could handle all the extra paperwork/class requirements/etc that was required of us.

 

When I retired in '06 I felt the same way as they did back in '71.

 

I like what we have now and enjoy it; if I were from back in the day I probably would have enjoyed that too.

 

Like my wife says, "It's all a game till someone shoots an eye out."

 

cr

[Lucky L]

Hellgate...

 

Thanks for the post and info! The Kidd and I enjoyed shooting with you yesterday at Wolverton!!...had a hard time breathing with all the smoke though! LOL

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Yup,

 

Some things were a lot of fun.

 

• In the middle of a shooting string to have to put an arrow under your arm - ya just got shot!
• Setting in a bath tub to shoot all your guns.
• Shooting of a "horse" that they had to help you up on and then a team had to try to get me off after my legs cramped.
• Walking and shooting.

 

And I also remember some pretty boring matches back then.

 

Some may have been very busy, but those of us watching got pretty bored watching.

• Shooters trying to find their ammo in a sack filled with junk.
• Reloading nearly all your guns on the clock
• Shootin at targets across a large lake
• Running 20 yards during the stage
• Struggling with props that worked at the start of the match, but not for your posse!
• Having to hit a knock-down and pop-up on a rocking horse - and you had to try up to 10 times!
• Shooting a stage with full of clay targets for the pistol targets - at about 10 yards
• Knocking our guns off the table with the whip
• Guns that didn't work and we tried to fix them on the line.
• Trying to shoot a lever action rifle while lying (or is it laying) under a wagon - boy that didn't work!

So we miss somethings because:

• We got smarter
• Our guns work better
• We don't always have that much time at a larger match
• Many of us got a LOT older

Plus we didn't have shooter coaches much back then. And we didn't know how to fix our guns near as well as now, nor how to handle the stages and matches as well as we once did.

 

I would sure like to turn the clock back on a few of those things - especially about having more mobility.

 

We can bring back some of the "fun things" and some locations do it more than others. But many are either not safe or practical.

 

So put on your thinking cap and see what you can come up with for your matches!

 

But don't be discouraged because some things were tried - and discarded.

[Ace_of_Hearts]

For those of you who want to see the stages the way they were in 1997............

 

http://www.reloadammo.com/co030897.htm

 

http://www.reloadammo.com/co100597.htm

[Cypress Sun]

Yup,

 

Some things were a lot of fun.

 

• In the middle of a shooting string to have to put an arrow under your arm - ya just got shot!
• Setting in a bath tub to shoot all your guns.
• Shooting of a "horse" that they had to help you up on and then a team had to try to get me off after my legs cramped.
• Walking and shooting.

 

And I also remember some pretty boring matches back then.

 

Some may have been very busy, but those of us watching got pretty bored watching.

• Shooters trying to find their ammo in a sack filled with junk.
• Reloading nearly all your guns on the clock
• Shootin at targets across a large lake
• Running 20 yards during the stage
• Struggling with props that worked at the start of the match, but not for your posse!
• Having to hit a knock-down and pop-up on a rocking horse - and you had to try up to 10 times!
• Shooting a stage with full of clay targets for the pistol targets - at about 10 yards
• Knocking our guns off the table with the whip
• Guns that didn't work and we tried to fix them on the line.
• Trying to shoot a lever action rifle while lying (or is it laying) under a wagon - boy that didn't work!

So we miss somethings because:

• We got smarter
• Our guns work better
• We don't always have that much time at a larger match
• Many of us got a LOT older

Plus we didn't have shooter coaches much back then. And we didn't know how to fix our guns near as well as now, nor how to handle the stages and matches as well as we once did.

 

I would sure like to turn the clock back on a few of those things - especially about having more mobility.

 

We can bring back some of the "fun things" and some locations do it more than others. But many are either not safe or practical.

 

So put on your thinking cap and see what you can come up with for your matches!

 

But don't be discouraged because some things were tried - and discarded.

 

AMEN X 1000

[Snakebite]

Yup,

 

Some things were a lot of fun.

 

• In the middle of a shooting string to have to put an arrow under your arm - ya just got shot!
• Setting in a bath tub to shoot all your guns.
• Shooting of a "horse" that they had to help you up on and then a team had to try to get me off after my legs cramped.
• Walking and shooting.

 

And I also remember some pretty boring matches back then.

 

Some may have been very busy, but those of us watching got pretty bored watching.

• Shooters trying to find their ammo in a sack filled with junk.
• Reloading nearly all your guns on the clock
• Shootin at targets across a large lake
• Running 20 yards during the stage
• Struggling with props that worked at the start of the match, but not for your posse!
• Having to hit a knock-down and pop-up on a rocking horse - and you had to try up to 10 times!
• Shooting a stage with full of clay targets for the pistol targets - at about 10 yards
• Knocking our guns off the table with the whip
• Guns that didn't work and we tried to fix them on the line.
• Trying to shoot a lever action rifle while lying (or is it laying) under a wagon - boy that didn't work!

So we miss somethings because:

• We got smarter
• Our guns work better
• We don't always have that much time at a larger match
• Many of us got a LOT older

Plus we didn't have shooter coaches much back then. And we didn't know how to fix our guns near as well as now, nor how to handle the stages and matches as well as we once did.

 

I would sure like to turn the clock back on a few of those things - especially about having more mobility.

 

We can bring back some of the "fun things" and some locations do it more than others. But many are either not safe or practical.

 

So put on your thinking cap and see what you can come up with for your matches!

 

But don't be discouraged because some things were tried - and discarded.

+1... no need for me to write anything... you just about nailed it.

 

Snakebite

[Tom Bullweed]

One of our local matches has a retro-match in December.

A stage can be:

Start with a lasso in hand, buzzer, rope a plastic steer head for a bonus

Shoot one pistol

Move to a table and pour a shot of rye

Shoot your rifle

Mive to a table and throw a knife

Shoot your second pistol

Move to a table and shot the shotgun, all rounds are loose in a box

A good time is 40 seconds.

A lot of laughter and relief that this is a fun match that we shoot after a regional.

[Keystone, SASS # 47578]

Howdy Ace,

 

Wow, sure was different. Seems like more horsing around & less shooting in the early days. I started CAS in 2002. Then stages had on the clock activities but included more shooting than your examples. Not sure if non-shooting activities were meant to be comic relief for the posse rather than fun for the shooter. Being in my later 60's with bad knees & back sure would make it tough shooting from knees or lying prone, not to mention trying to get up & down from lying or kneeling positions. Todays matches are more of a shooting competition. Seems we now do a lot of shooting with some folks total time for 5 stages less than 100 sec. Still, it all was & is a good time.

 

Hasta Luego, Keystone

 

PS The Oak Ridge Outlaws are having an "Old School" match the 5th Saturday in April.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

I can't imagine sitting in a bathtub and shooting a gun, much less ALL our guns.

 

Thank the good Lord for those who started being more safety conscience......

 

I didn't start shooting SASS/CAS until about 10-11 years back. I can remember doing Some of the extra stuff, like riding a stick pony, although not often.

And I remember shooting at small targets on a stand. You noticed I said 'Shooting At'..... and not 'hitting'.....

 

As Keystone stated (my GF mentor), our body mobility parts, or lack thereof, seem to warrant a change in the game.

 

We still have movements in the game. Its just not on our belly or in a bathtub.....

 

 

..........Widder

[Marauder SASS #13056]

The main with the bath tub was more for SxS shooters. It was a little awkward, but possible. All the guns were staged on a "table" that was fixed to the tub once you got in. When you were done, the guns were removed, then the table.

 

So the real issue was getting in and out!!!

 

As Keystone mentioned, I think there was a lot of joking. We gradually went to more and more competition and pure shooting. Only partly for those who weren't raised with whips, knives, ropes, etc.

 

I think it was a natural progression - one that nearly all the people wanted. For example, a lot of stages used to be one pistol, or only two guns in all. How would people respond now if you shot only 1 pistol on half of the stages?

 

I remember in the early 90's when some "wanna-be gunfighters used to look forward to those one-pistol stages. So they would load up two pistols with a total of 5 rounds and shoot them "duelist" when they got permission.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

couple years ago, I found score sheets from Guns of August 2001. fast was 29 seconds..... but no non shooting stuff,,,

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

If you check out the thread on the first SASS match ever, documented in the first CC, held at Cowtown in 1988 (the Az Territory Championship), you will find the winner averaged about 30 second stages. The last place finisher was a bit over 60 second stages. SOOOOO, not all stage times way back when are anywhere close to the stage times you indicate.

[Idaho Coyote']

Yeah I remember 30 second stages being the fast normal. Now it's closer to 20 second. Hell it was fun then and it's fun now

[Yul Lose]

We had an old school match out at Pala last year. It was fun but it took four guys to help me out of the bath tub. The rocking horse was a hoot also. I'm thinking that if matches had all of those props to manipulate and maneuver a match would take 10 or 12 hours to shoot and you'd have to have an ambulance and paramedics standing by to rescue some of us.

[Blackey Cole]

I think it was 30 sec when I started in 2005 by June I think I had my times down to 45 per stage average minus misses and procedures.

[Checotah]

As Keystone mentioned, I think there was a lot of joking. We gradually went to more and more competition and pure shooting. Only partly for those who weren't raised with whips, knives, ropes, etc.

 

I think this touches on the underlying cause: we focus a lot more on the winning, the "pure shooting", if you will, instead of the having fun. Not saying it's wrong, but I see a whole lot more people concentrating these days on "where did I finish" instead of "Dang! I looked so stupid. Let's do it again!" It is a lot more shooting competition. Not that it hasn't always been, but the focus has definitely shifted.

[Two Spurs]

Clubs could do all those things now............right after they bought a defibrillator.............

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

So , I still see No need to cut out all the fun stuff...

 

Trimming out the physically tough stuff, Yes but what's wrong with making a toss to try a rope a steer to start the stage ???

Or starting belly-up to the bar , Beer glass in hand at the BEEP set glass of bar and move to doorway and start a shooting them Bad Fellers...

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

I shot the US Open with Deuce one year. He was sitting on 84 seconds after 6 complete stages!

 

Things were different, but I think that bigger and closer is most of the reason we are taking less time on the clock.

 

CR

[Griff]

You have to remember, that until the mid-90s it was a 3-gun competition. And all three didn't get used in every stage. Very, very few with only one, but occasionally there'd be a two gun stage. Plus remember, that until the late '80s, stop watches were the norm... not digital timers... so the TOs reflexes were as much a part of the time as the shooters.

 

Slick guns were still the norm for the fast shooters, but there wasn't anything like a short stroke kit... so the Marlin 94 was the quick gun, being that it has the shortest stroke from the factory, with the 1892 nipping at it's heels... and many time being the more reliable.

 

In '86 I had Munden put his trimmed mainspring and wire bolt & trigger spring in my Colts and the 1892 Rossi I shot had been slicked up and was, (still is), smooth as butter. In '87 I moved to the BP category and had his wire trigger/bolt sping and a Ruger plunger & coil spring installed in both. I went to an 1873, knowing that I was giving back time to the clock, but wanting to better fit the time frame of my persona... Anyone shooting a Henry, '66 or '73 at that time was of a similar mindset.

 

Targets were both smaller and BIGGER than SASS current recommendations... but were also FARTHER away. Sometimes, at LOT farther away. Unlike some non-SASS matches, they were still inside 50 yards. This applied to all targets, pistol rifle & shotgun. There were times when you wished you had a 30" barrel on your shotgun!

 

One of the most fun stages was at EOT in about '90... I believe it was a 2 gun stage, but honestly can't recall what the 2nd gun was! You started in a barber chair, reclined back, with a sheet around your neck and your handgun held between your knees, (IIRC), at the beep you flipped yourself up to a seated position, & could either shoot outlaw style from under the sheet or fling it off and bring your gun up to obtain a sight picture! My wife and I still talk about that stage! It was the "make or break" stage of that match! IIRC, my average stage time at the '91 EOT was 33 seconds, and I was in about 28th place in the overall, and 3rd in Frontier Cartridge.

 

And for what's it's worth, throwin' a loop at a set of steerhorns is fun... for those that know how to toss a loop, for everyone else it's decidedly NOT fun. Certainly entertaining for the "peanut gallery", until it's their turn!!! The best "horses" were designed by a pard named "Appaloosa"... but, still a chore getting on and off under the timer for more infirmed amongst us. And if you've ever shot from the seat of a spring seated buggy, you truly know the value of light recoiling cartridges!

 

To be perfectly honest, hitting small targets, far away FAST is more time consuming than hitting bigger, closer targets FAST. Several competitors led the way in the changing of the game... I credit folks like Evil Roy and Tequila with their attention to transitions and study of movement and technique for the smooth and seemingly effortless way the game went from 1 sixgun to 2, from the also ran status of those that used a '97 to those of winners. Folks that first changed the mechanics of the '66, '73 and Marlin with short strokes and reliable timing changed the speed of shooting, while ER and Tequila changed the thought processes that precede a stage. The need to clearly have a plan, and skills and techniques that overcome the occasional hiccup that can occur.

 

Cumulative effect, shooting 4 more guns in less time (like ½ the time) than winners used to shoot 3.

 

I keep hear that the game has changed. I'll say that it's certainly evolved. What's exactly the same, is that the more you put in, the more you'll get out of it. Winners then and now do the same thing... practice, practice, practice and then practice some more. About the time you think you're tired of practicin', you'll realize that you're also apparently, tired of winnin'! Because someone else ain't tired of practicin'!!! Not everyone can be a winner and get the big buckle, but everyone can still leave with a smile on their face and one in their heart. Knowledge that you've done your best, help setup, wrote stages, helped put steel back up at the end, helpin' others that had problems with guns, ammo or whatever, run the timer, shagged brass, kept the scoresheet accurately and spotted to the best of your ability, along with that run clubs, TG, sit on the different SASS committees, and do all of the above with honesty and integrity, all those things ain't changed one lick.

[Blackey Cole]

At big annual events I see the need to trim stage times because the number of shooter involved. Look at it like this with the current times a posse of approximately twenty one shooters shoots a stage in forty five minutes on average. If you double the stage time to 90 minutes you have to cut the shooters in half and that means less profit from the match. Iirc EOT and WR both use the 45 stage time to schedule the three waves of posses each day for four stages a day for three days equals twelve stages which works great unless a posse falls behind on the first wave it can really throw things out of whack. The other thing to cut is the number of stages you shoot for the match. It's a triangle relationship between time shooters and stages. I like the four stages a day at big events because breaks don't have to be figured in. You shoot six stages a day a break needs to be given so the shooters can visit you vendors for lunch. But four you can eat before and or after the four stages which will take four hours out your day if you figure you need to be ready to shoot 15 minutes prior to you stage entry time and the other thirty minutes are eaten up between stages and afterwards. I've shot matches that had 6 stages a day with a break for lunch then so without. It is too much for me right now. Four is about right I remember when I started I shot up to ten stages a day but no way I can now. Four is fine six would be hard anything more impossible right now. I conserve my shooting to warmup which I only shoot enought stages to insure my guns and ammo work and to refresh me on the process physically then skip side matches and usually head home on Saturday evening or the next day. I prefer shooting late- mid- early rotation that way I've most of the morning to get the gear ready on day one then can be packed up and heading home or to a Rv park on the afternoon of day three. I don't go to win I go to enjoy the shooting and camrodie (sp). Not to see how fast I shoot but how many targets I can hit hopefully all in the correct order.