Eyesa Horg Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 I recently had some correspondence with a well known Cowboy gunsmith whom explained to me what "reverse indexing" does as I thought it was the same as "free spin". Oh well you don't know if you don't ask!! Anyway, he suggested I could modify the pawl or remove the "cylinder stop plunger" from the frame. Has anyone done this removal and is there any "Cons" about doing it? I'm good with the dis-assembly part of the job. Thanks in Advance for any info. Don't really need free spin I don't think, but, it would make a reload on the clock easier I presume. EH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Fill 'Em 67797 Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 It's a great and easy mod. Cock the hammer back, look into the frame, you will see a small hex-head plug. Remove the plug, spring and plunger. You should then be able to spin the cylinder both ways. I used a long hex key with a ball-socket end to remove the plug. I've heard not all of them will free spin but the four I've done did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frederick Jackson Turner Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 The above is correct info. The hex head is to the left of the hammer, when sighting down the frame, from behind. It's an easy mod, with no deleterious side effects. Cheers, FJT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 Some of the New Vaqueros will still require some small modification of the pawl to make them free spin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramblin Gambler Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 Did you understand the difference well enough to share it with us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 All of the new models have the free spin done at the factory but the reverse index plunger stops them from spinning backwards. Most are done completely and no other modification is necessary. Some however were not quite done enough and will have to be tuned up to stop the pawl from dragging. There is a small bump on the bottom of the pawl that comes in contact with the trigger guard when the hammer is fully down. Usually they just need to be TIG welded up and re fitted so that they cause the pawl to cam away from the cylinder a little more When the hammer is down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Reb, SASS #54804 Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 Does this work on original vaqueros or new model blackhawks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Houston CAS Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 It's a great and easy mod. Cock the hammer back, look into the frame, you will see a small hex-head plug. Remove the plug, spring and plunger. You should then be able to spin the cylinder both ways. I used a long hex key with a ball-socket end to remove the plug. I've heard not all of them will free spin but the four I've done did. Below is the diagram of the Vaquero from Ruger. Just to make sure I'm seeing things right, when I cock the gun, I see a small hex screw near the safety bar. I think that's 34 on the diagram. If I were to remove 34, I assume 33 and 32 come out as well. Would I then just shoot it with a hole in that spot or will I be able to screw the head back on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 Yes, remove 32,33, and 34. No need to put anything back in. Your gun at that point will probably free spin, but if it drags I would suggest having it fixed so it does not damage the pawl or cylinder ratchet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eyesa Horg Posted December 6, 2014 Author Share Posted December 6, 2014 Great info Pards, Much Obliged, couldn't be any easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eyesa Horg Posted December 8, 2014 Author Share Posted December 8, 2014 UPDATE: I removed the plunger in both guns. Used a 1/16" ball-end allen driver with the hammer all the way back. Took more time to get them out of the safe 15' from the bench than the removal did! One worked, although you can still feel a slight ratchet affect, the other made no difference at all--just didn't work. Oh well---pawl work I guess. Gonna have Jimmy Spurs check 'em over during the winter anyhow as I just bought them. Thanks Again Pards for all the help, EH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder SASS #13056 Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 I recommend that everyone with a "New Vaquero" do the mod to make certain the gun has the least friction. Then they can choose to put it back to "factory" and know the guns is working at it's best. My experience is like Eyesa Horg's. About half of the guns are making more contact than they should. Then you can do as Smokestack said or us what I got off a Ruger forum: Free Spin Mod It was developed for the original Vaquero but also works for the new ones that are not set up perfectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eyesa Horg Posted December 9, 2014 Author Share Posted December 9, 2014 I recommend that everyone with a "New Vaquero" do the mod to make certain the gun has the least friction. Then they can choose to put it back to "factory" and know the guns is working at it's best. My experience is like Eyesa Horg's. About half of the guns are making more contact than they should. Then you can do as Smokestack said or us what I got off a Ruger forum: Free Spin Mod It was developed for the original Vaquero but also works for the new ones that are not set up perfectly. Marauder-- Is it as easy as it looks, or is there a reasonable chance of wrecking the pawl? When properly completed, does the cylinder spin with no noise or detent feelings? The one that more or less worked for me still has a bit of a detent feel in both directions. EH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orient Express Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Marauder-- Is it as easy as it looks, or is there a reasonable chance of wrecking the pawl? When properly completed, does the cylinder spin with no noise or detent feelings? The one that more or less worked for me still has a bit of a detent feel in both directions. EH Wow, that appears to be a lot of material taken off the pawl... I've removed the plunger on one of my NMV and it free spins perfectly. The other suffers this pawl problem but I'm not in a hurry to modify the pawl. It's not like my times are good enough at the moment anyways. I need to work on a lot of others aspects of my game before the free spin will give me better times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Mulo Vaquero, SASS #55942 Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 I respectfully disagree with the method or need to modify the pawl in this manner on every new vaquero. At the SPEEDS, and amount of use that these firearms are used in CAS, the more surface area the pawl has in contact with the ratchet pad on the cylinder., the more positive rotation, and less damage to the pawl and ratchet pad there will be (as shown in the narrow filed pawl). When the gun is going to be fired (loading gate closed) the pawl spring/plunger puts pressure against the pawl onto the ratchet pad anyway. Free spinning is only a secondary consideration for loading purposes. If a free spinning cylinder is desired the pawl needs to move back in the manner that Smoke Stack described. Just my two cents, yours may vary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badfinger & Sassy Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 El Mulo Vaquero, I too had the same feelings as you with the pawl modification.. but.. upon further consideration I did the pawl mod that Marauder shows (from his website) many many years ago on my OMVs and after thousands upon thousand of rounds they still look exactly the same with no further wear on any part and have always worked great. With my NMV's I purchased last December I had one dragging after removing the plungers. I did the same pawl mod as Marauder is showing above, but with much less filed off, and after 2,500 + rounds through it there is absolutely no visible/further wear. Very happy with my pistols and want to thank Marauder so much for his website!!! The website has been priceless for us backyard "want to be" gunsmiths !!!!! Badfinger Bodene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Mulo Vaquero, SASS #55942 Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Badfinger, Glad it has worked for you. I have seen/replaced many scarred cylinders because of mis shaped pawls, cutting the ratchet pad. Again, the harder, faster they are run the more problems will develop. Particularly on stainless guns which are softer steel. Again, no disrespect intended, Just my two cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder SASS #13056 Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 Marauder-- Is it as easy as it looks, or is there a reasonable chance of wrecking the pawl? When properly completed, does the cylinder spin with no noise or detent feelings? The one that more or less worked for me still has a bit of a detent feel in both directions. EH Yes it is easy, but to be safe, go slowly. (You can also order a new Pawl if you are concerned or go too far.) The cylinder should spin freely with out a noise. The noise means you have extra contact that is wearing the pawl and your cylinder. If it is very slight, you can easily ignore it, but I do like mine to free spin even if I want to put the parts back together. The amount you have to take off varies on each gun. No need to go too far as that is no benefit and would weaken the action. On the New models, you generally only have to remove a small amount - not as much as on the original models. FYI, The lower portion of the pawl actually does most of the work and you will not be working on that portion. As to the cylinder wear, I know a few guys that had special cylinders made due to the stress they put on their guns - there were strong, fast fella's. And they wore those cylinders out as well. And that was without the free spin pawl. I've had mine done for many years, shoot moderately fast and have had no issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eyesa Horg Posted December 12, 2014 Author Share Posted December 12, 2014 Much Obliged Marauder for your input and your web site as well, it has been quite helpful to this Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Crowe Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 I just picked up a NM Vaquero on a trade and the previous owner had the gun modified so that the cylinder would "free spin". My question is why do this mod, in other words what is the advantage in having a free spinning cylinder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Yes it is easy, but to be safe, go slowly. (You can also order a new Pawl if you are concerned or go too far.) The cylinder should spin freely with out a noise. The noise means you have extra contact that is wearing the pawl and your cylinder. If it is very slight, you can easily ignore it, but I do like mine to free spin even if I want to put the parts back together. The amount you have to take off varies on each gun. No need to go too far as that is no benefit and would weaken the action. On the New models, you generally only have to remove a small amount - not as much as on the original models. FYI, The lower portion of the pawl actually does most of the work and you will not be working on that portion. As to the cylinder wear, I know a few guys that had special cylinders made due to the stress they put on their guns - there were strong, fast fella's. And they wore those cylinders out as well. And that was without the free spin pawl. I've had mine done for many years, shoot moderately fast and have had no issues. +1 The pawl/hand has two steps. The tip just starts the cylinder turning but the lower step finishes the turn as the tip move off the notch completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Hombre Sin Nombre Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Free spin helps if the stage calls for a on the clock reload. Other than that, it's really a convenience thing in case you like to hurry while loading and tend to rotate so fast that you missed a round and don't want to go all the way around again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 On stages that require you to reload a pistol on the clock, re-indexing the cylinder is quicker and easier if you can move it backwards. Given that on the clock pistol reloads are not very common any more the modification it is not as popular as it once was. However there will come a time when a reload will be required for a stage or if you have a misfire you could reload to save a clean match. So it is beneficial to practice reloading your pistols on the clock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 The three parts that you remove, are three less parts that can fail during a match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aunt Jen Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 QUESTION: why did they design the cylinder to go only one way in the first place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex M Rugers #6621 Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Personally , I haven't felt the need to do my New Vaqueros , but when I had all Original Vaqueros , had all of them done. Main reason for me was because of the way the cylinder didn't line up with the loading gate on the old Vaqueros. Keep em smokin' , Rex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missouri Marshal SASS #50682 Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 I just picked up a NM Vaquero on a trade and the previous owner had the gun modified so that the cylinder would "free spin". My question is why do this mod, in other words what is the advantage in having a free spinning cylinder? One other advantage is that if you have a high primer it is easier to turn the cylinder back rather than have to drag it all the way across the recoil area which has much less clearance between the frame and the cylinder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubious Don #56333 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 All of the new models have the free spin done at the factory but the reverse index plunger stops them from spinning backwards. Most are done completely and no other modification is necessary. Some however were not quite done enough and will have to be tuned up to stop the pawl from dragging. There is a small bump on the bottom of the pawl that comes in contact with the trigger guard when the hammer is fully down. Usually they just need to be TIG welded up and re fitted so that they cause the pawl to cam away from the cylinder a little more When the hammer is down. This is the correct fix. What some will do is take a bit off the tip of the pawl so it doesn't catch on the cylinder ratchets. This works as long as you don't take off too much and ruin the engagement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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