Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

Shooting on the move


Dang It Dan 13202

Recommended Posts

So, at the last two major matches I have attended (WR being one of those) the opportunity presented it's self where the stage description stated that you could shoot the shotgun targets anywhere between point "A" and "B". At both of these matches I have witnessed shooters slam-firing the 97 shotgun while at a fast walk, never stopping, effectively shooting on the move.

 

According to Pale Wolf, if a person is slam-firing the 97 then there is no way he can be penalized for moving with a cocked gun as long as they don't move BOTH feet after closing the action.

 

Here's the question: What's the difference between that and "walking" with a pistol or a rifle?

 

I can certainly shoot my pistols fast enough to get two shots off per step, same with the rifle. I just get the impression if the stage instructions said "shoot the pistols anywhere between here and there" and I shot while walking, someone is going to have a problem with it, but I see NO DIFFERENCE between the "no-call" with the shotgun and any other gun.

 

What say you?

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 113
  • Created
  • Last Reply

For you and a percentage of shooters with the skills, it would be no problem..............for some shooters, a train wreck

Link to post
Share on other sites

he's got a point there!!!

 

Will it open up stage writing or tighten it up even more tho?

Link to post
Share on other sites

I dont really know the answer, as Wyatt says some could & some could not because of skill set, I would like to see SASS allow the "box" to come back where should could move with a cocked gun in a certain area so we could add a little more to stages.

 

 

AO

Link to post
Share on other sites

So, at the last two major matches I have attended (WR being one of those) the opportunity presented it's self where the stage description stated that you could shoot the shotgun targets anywhere between point "A" and "B". At both of these matches I have witnessed shooters slam-firing the 97 shotgun while at a fast walk, never stopping, effectively shooting on the move.

 

According to Pale Wolf, if a person is slam-firing the 97 then there is no way he can be penalized for moving with a cocked gun as long as they don't move BOTH feet after closing the action.

 

Here's the question: What's the difference between that and "walking" with a pistol or a rifle?

 

I can certainly shoot my pistols fast enough to get two shots off per step, same with the rifle. I just get the impression if the stage instructions said "shoot the pistols anywhere between here and there" and I shot while walking, someone is going to have a problem with it, but I see NO DIFFERENCE between the "no-call" with the shotgun and any other gun.

The only difference is that, aside from the '97s & some "Lightning" pump rifles, very few of the firearms we use in this game are capable of actually 'slam-firing'.

That was the question I'd addressed regarding the IMpossibility of moving BOTH feet during the micro-second's time span between the action being CLOSED & FIRED when doing so on the move.

 

What say you?

IF a shooter is going to try firing while moving with another type of firearm, s/he should be prepared to STOP in case of a mis-fire or other "glitch" that might end up with them "changing location" with the action closed/hammer down on an unfired round.

 

I've seen shooters move from window to window on a train car while firing a revolver...I also challenged the T/O & spotters as to whether they actually SAW both feet move between the time the revolver was cocked and when it was fired. ^_^

Link to post
Share on other sites

I dont really know the answer, as Wyatt says some could & some could not because of skill set, I would like to see SASS allow the "box" to come back where should could move with a cocked gun in a certain area so we could add a little more to stages.

 

 

AO

 

I, for one, miss being allowed to move with a cocked/loaded firearm (within a "box" or not).

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm with Dang it Dan on this one. FCS.... in IDPA they actually penalize a shooter for STOPPING if the description dictates "shoot on the move". Howsomever, it would be nice if SASS leveled the playing field so that a shooter with a SxS could make the same advantage.

 

WHERE APPROPRIATE a shooter should be allowed to move with any weapon downrange and continue a string. Every other ACTION sport allows it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I, for one, miss being allowed to move with a cocked/loaded firearm (within a "box" or not).

Well maybe box was wrong word I hate boxes (no foot faults at my matches),movement in a area with cocked gun or just let us move ("by all mean's move")

 

AO

Link to post
Share on other sites

wud be cool,,,, and hard to relearn,,,, dunt think it wud fly if the TGs had to vote on it....

 

hmmm, a slam firing marlin,,,,,,it could be done!!! hmmmm

Link to post
Share on other sites

wud be cool,,,, and hard to relearn,,,, dunt think it wud fly if the TGs had to vote on it....

 

hmmm, a slam firing marlin,,,,,,it could be done!!! hmmmm

Yeah, well, the entire TG rule making body is an abomination in the eyes of GAAAAAAWWWWWDDDD.....25 years and 3 rulebooks...plus, the secret bunker....BRILLIANT!

 

Maybe it's time to convene a SASS Continental RULES Congress along with the new 501 © 4 plans.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

So, at the last two major matches I have attended (WR being one of those) the opportunity presented it's self where the stage description stated that you could shoot the shotgun targets anywhere between point "A" and "B". At both of these matches I have witnessed shooters slam-firing the 97 shotgun while at a fast walk, never stopping, effectively shooting on the move.

 

According to Pale Wolf, if a person is slam-firing the 97 then there is no way he can be penalized for moving with a cocked gun as long as they don't move BOTH feet after closing the action.

 

Here's the question: What's the difference between that and "walking" with a pistol or a rifle?

 

I can certainly shoot my pistols fast enough to get two shots off per step, same with the rifle. I just get the impression if the stage instructions said "shoot the pistols anywhere between here and there" and I shot while walking, someone is going to have a problem with it, but I see NO DIFFERENCE between the "no-call" with the shotgun and any other gun.

The only difference is that, aside from the '97s & some "Lightning" pump rifles, very few of the firearms we use in this game are capable of actually 'slam-firing'.

That was the question I'd addressed regarding the IMpossibility of moving BOTH feet during the micro-second's time span between the action being CLOSED & FIRED when doing so on the move.

 

What say you?

IF a shooter is going to try firing while moving with another type of firearm, s/he should be prepared to STOP in case of a mis-fire or other "glitch" that might end up with them "changing location" with the action closed/hammer down on an unfired round.

 

I've seen shooters move from window to window on a train car while firing a revolver...I also challenged the T/O & spotters as to whether they actually SAW both feet move between the time the revolver was cocked and when it was fired. ^_^

If this is truly the case then the rule against moving should be eliminated. How do you tell if someone is slam firing a 97 or Ligtning or just closing the action and pulling the trigger very fast? If someone is shooting their lever rifle at anything other than a glacier rate there is no way to tell if both feet moved in the mico second between the action being open and the shot going off. If we are going to do this, then no spotter or the TO could ever tell with certainly whether both feet moved. So, anytime someone is moving and shootng (unless they are shooting very slowly so feet movement is obvious) they simply have to say "did you actually SEE both feet move?" Spotters aren't even supposed to be looking at the shooter's feet, they are supposed to be looking at the targets. Trying to argue around the movement rule is opening the door to more problems than it solves. If the intent of the rules is for people not to be moving while in the active shooting process these crabbed arguments don't advance that rule. If the rule needs changing, let's change it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, well, the entire TG rule making body is an abomination in the eyes of GAAAAAAWWWWWDDDD.....25 years and 3 rulebooks

...plus, the secret bunker....BRILLIANT!

 

Maybe it's time to convene a SASS Continental RULES Congress along with the new 501 © 4 plans.

 

WT* are you referring to there?

Link to post
Share on other sites

wud be cool,,,, and hard to relearn,,,, dunt think it wud fly if the TGs had to vote on it....

 

hmmm, a slam firing marlin,,,,,,it could be done!!! hmmmm

Hmmm...if we can shoot on the move shouldn't we also allow modifications to the rifle to allow it to be "slam fired".....like the Rifleman used to shoot.

 

....just stirring the pot ;)

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

So, at the last two major matches I have attended (WR being one of those) the opportunity presented it's self where the stage description stated that you could shoot the shotgun targets anywhere between point "A" and "B". At both of these matches I have witnessed shooters slam-firing the 97 shotgun while at a fast walk, never stopping, effectively shooting on the move.

 

According to Pale Wolf, if a person is slam-firing the 97 then there is no way he can be penalized for moving with a cocked gun as long as they don't move BOTH feet after closing the action.

 

Here's the question: What's the difference between that and "walking" with a pistol or a rifle?

 

I can certainly shoot my pistols fast enough to get two shots off per step, same with the rifle. I just get the impression if the stage instructions said "shoot the pistols anywhere between here and there" and I shot while walking, someone is going to have a problem with it, but I see NO DIFFERENCE between the "no-call" with the shotgun and any other gun.

The only difference is that, aside from the '97s & some "Lightning" pump rifles, very few of the firearms we use in this game are capable of actually 'slam-firing'.

That was the question I'd addressed regarding the IMpossibility of moving BOTH feet during the micro-second's time span between the action being CLOSED & FIRED when doing so on the move.

 

What say you?

IF a shooter is going to try firing while moving with another type of firearm, s/he should be prepared to STOP in case of a mis-fire or other "glitch" that might end up with them "changing location" with the action closed/hammer down on an unfired round.

 

I've seen shooters move from window to window on a train car while firing a revolver...I also challenged the T/O & spotters as to whether they actually SAW both feet move between the time the revolver was cocked and when it was fired. ^_^

If this is truly the case then the rule against moving should be eliminated. How do you tell if someone is slam firing a 97 or Ligtning or just closing the action and pulling the trigger very fast? If someone is shooting their lever rifle at anything other than a glacier rate there is no way to tell if both feet moved in the mico second between the action being open and the shot going off. If we are going to do this, then no spotter or the TO could ever tell with certainly whether both feet moved. So, anytime someone is moving and shootng (unless they are shooting very slowly so feet movement is obvious) they simply have to say "did you actually SEE both feet move?" Spotters aren't even supposed to be looking at the shooter's feet, they are supposed to be looking at the targets. Trying to argue around the movement rule is opening the door to more problems than it solves. If the intent of the rules is for people not to be moving while in the active shooting process these crabbed arguments don't advance that rule. If the rule needs changing, let's change it.

 

 

The "challenge" was on a stage that required movement between individual shots (i.e. from window to window) while actively engaging targets...NOT the same as (e.g.) cocking a revolver at the wrong location & then moving a few steps to the proper firing point.

 

FWIW - The "basketball traveling rule" was added during the composition of the RO2. Previously, the SHB/RO1 had allowed movement with a cocked/loaded firearm IF the stage directions specified so.

After the allowance was deleted from the SHB & RO1, it was added back in when the Stage Conventions were approved by the TG's (read the "preamble" to the current list of Conventions).

Movement with a cocked/loaded firearm was deleted from THAT list arbitrarily (as previously noted)...recently "breaking the 170º" and "belligerent behaviour" were also removed (as those two should never have been on the list in the first place)

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

WT* are you referring to there?

Wanted to see if you were paying attention! :D You know the secret bunker. :ph34r: ...right? All the new rules that are listed on the hidden website :o (which URL I always lose). ;)

 

In all seriousness, it's now way past time for a committee dedicated, charged and accountable for the completion of a single, beta tested, comment period-vetted rule book.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I consider myself to be a pretty good shooter. I have a lot of experience shooting cowboy and have done so at a lot of matches. I remember the first time I saw the slam fire on the move with a 97 and I was not comfortable with it. I have seen it since and am still not comfortable with it. We play a game that has traditionally had the shooter cock and fire from a fixed position. The people I have seen shoot this way have done it well and safely. I see the problem coming from a not so practiced shooter trying it and stumbling with a loaded cocked firearm.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Wanted to see if you were paying attention! :D You know the secret bunker. :ph34r: ...right? All the new rules that are listed on the hidden website :o (which URL I always lose). ;)

 

In all seriousness, it's now way past time for a committee dedicated, charged and accountable for the completion of a single, beta tested, comment period-vetted rule book.

 

well...you figured out how to get the BP rising...everytime some AH complains that the recent changes are posted on some "super secret website" (that happens to be PUBLICLY ACCESSIBLE by ANYONE) I'm tempted to shut down that page on my home club website & toss back the ROC badge.

 

:P

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

The "challenge" was on a stage that required movement between individual shots (i.e. from window to window) while actively engaging targets...NOT the same as (e.g.) cocking a revolver at the wrong location & then moving a few steps to the proper firing point.

 

FWIW - The "basketball traveling rule" was added during the composition of the RO2. Previously, the SHB/RO1 had allowed movement with a cocked/loaded firearm IF the stage directions specified so.

After the allowance was deleted from the SHB & RO1, it was added back in when the Stage Conventions were approved by the TG's (read the "preamble" to the current list of Conventions).

Movement with a cocked/loaded firearm was deleted from THAT list arbitrarily (as previously noted)...recently "breaking the 170º" and "belligerent behaviour" were also removed (as those two should never have been on the list in the first place)

I wasn't talking about that kind of situation. An example more in line with the discussion. Large wide window, shooter is slip hammering his revolver at blazing speed while walking. It would seem based on the discussion in this thread that is OK. No way to tell that the shooter moved both feet between shots. That, however, seems to clearly violate the intent of the movement rule and the old "Spirit of the Game" admonition. Rather than concoct exceptions to the intent of the rule, and create the possibility of long heated debates at shoots, let's change the rule.

 

One other thing. I haven't shot IPSC or IDPA in several years. However, my recollection is that your finger has to be outside the triggerguard while moving. If you are slam firing a 97 your finger is inside the trigger guard and touching the trigger.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I consider myself to be a pretty good shooter. I have a lot of experience shooting cowboy and have done so at a lot of matches. I remember the first time I saw the slam fire on the move with a 97 and I was not comfortable with it. I have seen it since and am still not comfortable with it. We play a game that has traditionally had the shooter cock and fire from a fixed position. The people I have seen shoot this way have done it well and safely. I see the problem coming from a not so practiced shooter trying it and stumbling with a loaded cocked firearm.

 

I guess that depends on how long ago & where one started playing this game.

Some clubs "traditionally" had a LOT of movement with cocked/loaded firearms (e.g. shotgun advance downrange, engaging multiple targets as available).

Never heard of anyone getting hurt doing so.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Absolutely, it can be done if done correctly.

 

As long as you don't take more than 1 step per shot.

 

I was TOing a BP shooter a while back. 5 targets arranged left to right. Rifle staged on one side, shotgun on the other. Instructions were to double tap each rifle target once. Make rifle safe. You were to shoot the shotgun next.

 

Shooter was fluid as he was moving one foot per tap, sidestepping across the bay. He always had a clear sight picture with no smoke in front of him. At the last target, he took a couple more steps and he transitioned to the SG.

 

It was quick, fluid, and you could tell that it was practiced. A lot.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmmm...if we can shoot on the move shouldn't we also allow modifications to the rifle to allow it to be "slam fired".....like the Rifleman used to shoot.

 

....just stirring the pot ;)

how about an auto spoon for stiring the pot

 

lets see

the tv tells me

a body in motion tends to stay in motion

something like that

 

I am for shoot and move

but ya gotta have a stage with movement "LOL" thats a stir the stew joke folks" :lol::D:lol:

Link to post
Share on other sites

I wasn't talking about that kind of situation. An example more in line with the discussion. Large wide window, shooter is slip hammering his revolver at blazing speed while walking. It would seem based on the discussion in this thread that is OK. No way to tell that the shooter moved both feet between shots.

That, however, seems to clearly violate the intent of the movement rule and the old "Spirit of the Game" admonition.

...

I don't see it that way.

 

Rather than concoct exceptions to the intent of the rule, and create the possibility of long heated debates at shoots, let's change the rule.

Good luck if it's going to the TGs for any kind of a reversal of a "perceived safety issue"

 

One other thing. I haven't shot IPSC or IDPA in several years. However, my recollection is that your finger has to be outside the triggerguard while moving. If you are slam firing a 97 your finger is inside the trigger guard and touching the trigger.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

well...you figured out how to get the BP rising...everytime some AH complains that the recent changes are posted on some "super secret website" (that happens to be PUBLICLY ACCESSIBLE by ANYONE) I'm tempted to shut down that page on my home club website & toss back the ROC badge.

 

:P

Pulse check on aisle RO#3..... :lol::D

Link to post
Share on other sites

While perhaps Not truly a Slam-Fire a 66 levered with a finger in the right place can fire at the instant of the lever closing. Far to fast to make more than ONE Step between rounds.

 

Up here in Canada there is often movement done safely with loaded guns written in to our stages ... SO COME NORTH AND SHOOT!

 

There is room fer Cowfolk to visit between shoots at my place,so come on up and string together a bunch of shoots and fun...

 

Jabez Cowboy

Link to post
Share on other sites

When this issue came up a few years ago at EOT Coyote solved it by changing the description to read: From any ONE location between X and Y shoot targets ...... with ..... rounds. Did away with the "shooting on the move" questions. And yes you CAN move between locations but finger must be outside trigger guard in many "Action shooting sports". You can engage targets on the move in many of them also, but not in CAS. We are looking at allowing some shooting on the move in WBAS.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I wasn't talking about that kind of situation. An example more in line with the discussion. Large wide window, shooter is slip hammering his revolver at blazing speed while walking. It would seem based on the discussion in this thread that is OK. No way to tell that the shooter moved both feet between shots.

That, however, seems to clearly violate the intent of the movement rule and the old "Spirit of the Game" admonition.

...

I don't see it that way.

 

Rather than concoct exceptions to the intent of the rule, and create the possibility of long heated debates at shoots, let's change the rule.

Good luck if it's going to the TGs for any kind of a reversal of a "perceived safety issue"

 

One other thing. I haven't shot IPSC or IDPA in several years. However, my recollection is that your finger has to be outside the triggerguard while moving. If you are slam firing a 97 your finger is inside the trigger guard and touching the trigger.

 

Right, and that is the point. A "perceived safety issue!" How does defining away the rule to allow shooting on the move square with the "perceived safety issue." No disrespect, and I know you won't take it that way, but when you say you "don't see it that way" that is your personal opinion. The larger question is what makes sense and what is implementable at various matches. The "you can't prove I didn't do it" argument doesn't seem like the wise route to follow.

Link to post
Share on other sites

We used to see stages that had you shoot and move. For example, you would have stepping stones where you would walk and shoot. The problem was that faster shooters could easily do it and apparently safely (who could really tell if more than one foot moved?).

But slower shooters would often cock, then move and get called. So it has been about 10 years since I've seen such a stage.

 

If you practice it a little though, it is relatively easy to shoot and move and do it safely - especially with a revolver or 97. And it can be done with the SxS and rifle, but it talks more practice.

Link to post
Share on other sites

In all seriousness, it's now way past time for a committee dedicated, charged and accountable for the completion of a single, beta tested, comment period-vetted rule book.

There is only ONE rulebook... but it shouldn't take TWO training manuals to provide interpretations... with still a fairly large contingent of folks that don't "get it." But, as with anything designed "by committee," there will still be issues.

 

One other thing. I haven't shot IPSC or IDPA in several years. However, my recollection is that your finger has to be outside the triggerguard while moving. If you are slam firing a 97 your finger is inside the trigger guard and touching the trigger.

And while I've always felt that was a rule sorely needed...; as I was told, oh, so many, many years ago: "...that's only a problem when the action cycled on the move..." So, apparently, from time beginning, cowboy actions shooters were thought not to possess the requisite skills to walk and chew gum simultaneously. So... in order to prevent an AD on the line, the cycling of any action while on the move was prohibited. And, unlike a semi-auto, if the action isn't cycled, the finger on the trigger isn't a "danger".

 

For those that have moved to cowboy action from IDPA or IPSC or are also participating in 3-Gun, this probably won't present a problem... I still have those old habits..., but for those folks that have only shot cowboy action... the learning curve will be an issue!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Can I do it ? YES. Am I going to risk the half hour plus of heartburn it's going to cause with spotters and match officials? Not to mention getting me all worked up for the next stage/s wondering if I've just been stage dq'd ? He!! No. I'll stop thanks.

Link to post
Share on other sites

A really good shooter I know gave me a great idea a year or two ago and I hadn't really thought of it before.

 

The purpose of the moving with a cocked gun rule is to prevent "unsafe" movement where it is not desired (IE needlessly moving between entire shooting positions with a gun that is ready to fire.)

 

So what he asked was this: "Provided the shooter is AT the shooting position designated why worry about movement and shuffling of feet etc. at all?" They are where they are supposed to be, let them jockey for the best firing position and not worry about the hammer. It may even be safer that way since you can adjust your feet and not be tempted to try some major lean to get an angle.

 

Or... if the stage says that "The shoting box is from table to table" just let that be excactly what you would expect... an "ok" to move and shoot between those positions.

 

It would still let the traveling rule as we use it now apply to most every situation we need it for, but would allow shooters the latitude to do what needs doing at each position without having to worry constantly or having the spotters trying to divine the condition of the hammer when someone moves while slam firing or rapidly firing the pistol between close windows.

 

This is just an interesting idea I overheard. I don't mind the rules the way they are now but this made a lot of sense.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I guess that depends on how long ago & where one started playing this game.

Some clubs "traditionally" had a LOT of movement with cocked/loaded firearms (e.g. shotgun advance downrange, engaging multiple targets as available).

Never heard of anyone getting hurt doing so.

2001 in West Central Ohio. I did not start traveling to shoots and seeing other dimensions of this game until around 05 or 06. We did a lot of movement with the shotgun, as that was the example you gave. We did it with the action open. Yes, we could drop a live round on the carrier as we were running. Never saw an accident either.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.