Dang It Dan 13202 Posted March 19, 2014 Author Share Posted March 19, 2014 One other thing. I haven't shot IPSC or IDPA in several years. However, my recollection is that your finger has to be outside the triggerguard while moving. If you are slam firing a 97 your finger is inside the trigger guard and touching the trigger. What your are referring to is correct...when moving. It a shooter has the gun up, aiming, in the act of "engaging" the target he/she can move with the finger on the trigger. Can I do it ? YES. Am I going to risk the half hour plus of heartburn it's going to cause with spotters and match officials? Not to mention getting me all worked up for the next stage/s wondering if I've just been stage dq'd ? He!! No. I'll stop thanks. Go ahead and stop. Meanwhile, at my level, the whole dang match is determined on less than one full second. I can't afford to give that away if someone else is moving while in the act of shooting and saving a full second or two. All I am saying is that the rule is NOT specific to just the 97 shotgun. I just want to get this out in the open - yes or no - for further reference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Hi Folks, I remember very well a stage at a state match, where one was to move from window to window shooting two pistol rounds from each window. IIRC, close to 1/2 of the shooters received SDQ. That was about nine years ago and there was no "shooting box." I think that reeked and I didn't even get a SDQ! Regards, Allie Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 I encourage all my competition to shoot and move. It's a lot like folks that think that shoot two and move is such as advantage for a double. I am yet to see any double shooter (yup seen all the best ones) be able to RUN and load. jog,trot,mosey yes...but full out run? nope have not seen it. Bud and Spence are the exception with their 97's like they always have been. I'll stop thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hacker, SASS #55963 Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Wanted to see if you were paying attention! You know the secret bunker. ...right? All the new rules that are listed on the hidden website (which URL I always lose). In all seriousness, it's now way past time for a committee dedicated, charged and accountable for the completion of a single, beta tested, comment period-vetted rule book. +100 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 It is NOT the ROC as a whole that doesn't want a one step shop for rules book.... It is an insult to the ROC so say so!.. But then they are paid the big bucks for all the countless hours they spend on it as it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dang It Dan 13202 Posted March 19, 2014 Author Share Posted March 19, 2014 I encourage all my competition to shoot and move. It's a lot like folks that think that shoot two and move is such as advantage for a double. I am yet to see any double shooter (yup seen all the best ones) be able to RUN and load. jog,trot,mosey yes...but full out run? nope have not seen it. Bud and Spence are the exception with their 97's like they always have been. I'll stop thank you. Ease up. I didn't say "full out run". I asked, what if I move and shoot with the pistol/rifle same as allowed with the 97. I would still like someone to say, yes it's legal or no it's not. Simple answer to a not-so-simple question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 I wud say is like double firing for a GF, sometimes you'll get spotters that it's ok with, next time "gotcha!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655 Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Dang It having seen you shoot no way you can move both feet between either rifle or pistol shots unless you be hopping so what is the issue??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack, SASS #20451 Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Dan, I agree with you the rule is NOT specific to the '97. That may be the easiest example, but that is not what the rule says. If you only move one foot between cocking the firearm and firing the shot you are legal. I'll TO you any time and if that is what happens it is a no call. P.S. If we allow more "Action friendly" rules in WBAS will you come shoot with us?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Ease up. I didn't say "full out run". I asked, what if I move and shoot with the pistol/rifle same as allowed with the 97. I would still like someone to say, yes it's legal or no it's not. Simple answer to a not-so-simple question. Sorry , didn't know there was a strict stay on topic rule on this thread I'll go back to my casting cave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Sorry , didn't know there was a strict stay on topic rule on this thread I'll go back to my casting cave. Huh! That (staying on topic) will never happen. No problem here if it does; I just doubt it will happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chili Pepper Pete 11917 Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 I am finding this post and the replies interesting in the fact that those that do not think its a good idea are worried about them selves or others not being able to move with guns safely. If that's the case then please don't, No one is suggesting that you should or have too. I am getting a wee bit agitated that SASS is following the course of society where in everything is based on the lowest common denominator. We want to limit the movement on stages because some folks are older or have ailments that make it difficult for them to run or move swiftly. Then don't run! move at a pace you feel safe to complete the stage. Oh wait... you want to be competitive with someone who can move faster, hmmmmmm So the stand and deliver stages suit your game better, I see now... So are the people that complain or against it really opposed to movement or is their position more self serving. Please note that this is not meant to be an insult or dig on the older people in our sport, They are the heart and soul of CAS, always were and will always be, You have my greatest respect. We learned to carry loaded guns while hunting as children , taught again in the military, learned more in other action shooting sports, why is it that SASS doesn't trust the people playing the game to have enough sense to know their own limitations. We are already moving around with loaded guns from loading bench to unloading bench. I have been in this sport long enough to have seen the new, inexperienced shooter at his first match. The one who read about SASS and wanted to part of it even thou they have never owned or fired a gun before. They show up with their brand new guns and we welcome them. We instruct them, we watch over them and make sure they are doing the right thing and being safe. Is this really that much different. As some have said before me, we used to do it, moving while shooting was written into the stages and no one thought anything about it. Hell we used to have to climb off prop horses, kneel next to barrels and lay prone under wagons all while shooting. I know the game has change since then and I'm not suggesting that we have to go all the way back to the good old days but shouldn't we at least keep the "Action" in Cowboy action shooting. Best regards, Chili Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Dang it Jedi, Just because YOU posted this topic, I might as well jump on and go for the ride also. I say Illegal if attempted to do it in the manner which the '97 can be manipulated. I say this because I can't see where the rifle or pistols can be 'tamed' like the '97 when going for speed. Splits between rifle shots and pistols shots can be sub .20 splits. Heck, even the best Bookie Woogie dancers can't move their feet to stop that fast. On the other hand, MOST '97 shooters will have splits above .50 and more often .60-.70 this time lag allows for the manipulation of the '97 while still having 1 foot planted.. I doubt this is the answer you're looking for. But thats what my fingers felt like typing. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 To bad we can't 'move' as is done in W3G. What say you PWB, on this? Respectfully, LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385 Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 the way most SASS matches are set up, you shoot from positions because targets are layed out that way unlike say western 3 gun where you engage targets as they come into view because they purposely hide them so you have to move to shoot them, I cant see shooting rifle or pistols on move being a advantage in SASS because it would be quicker to get where you need too and blaze away faster splits and less chance of missing every once in awhile you get a stage where you can do the 97 slam fire walk but not often, dont see it as that big of deal but it would be fun to set it up more often and try to get more proficient at it AO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 To bad we can't 'move' as is done in W3G. What say you PWB, on this? Respectfully, LG REF: RO1 p.29 "Glossary of Terms" - Basketball Traveling rule Basketball Traveling rule – aka movement with a firearm. Once the firearm is cocked, one foot must remain in place on the ground until the firearm is made safe. This means, on revolvers, you may move, restage, or re-holster when the hammer is down on an empty chamber or expended case. You may move with a rifle or shotgun when the action is open or hammer(s) down on an empty chamber(s) or an expended case(s). IF the stage instructions are open-ended enough to allow engaging targets from anywhere between two (or more) locations on the stage, a shooter MAY (IMO & barring any instructions to the contrary) move while actively firing a firearm...as long as at least one foot remains in place while the firearm is in a "action closed/hammer cocked" condition or while the hammer is cocked over an unfired round (depending on the type/model of firearm). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 That's fine, but that brings us back to the "perceived safety issue." How is anyone going to know with a fast shooter or even a moderately fast shooter if their thumbs and feet are in sync? Are we going to start installing stop action cameras so we can have instant replays? Since spotters are supposed to be looking at the targets are we now going to have a fourth person assigned to watching foot and hand movement? Good theory, just darn hard to implement. We are now moving from what was thought by most to be a relatively clear rule about moving and shooting into the realm of guessing whether the shooter violated it or not. Gonna be a lot of inconsistent calls on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 REF: RO1 p.29 "Glossary of Terms" - Basketball Traveling rule IF the stage instructions are open-ended enough to allow engaging targets from anywhere between two (or more) locations on the stage, a shooter MAY (IMO & barring any instructions to the contrary) move while actively firing a firearm...as long as at least one foot remains in place while the firearm is in a "action closed/hammer cocked" condition or while the hammer is cocked over an unfired round (depending on the type/model of firearm). Night and day different. W3G is KISS ...... http://deadwoodboys.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=7&Itemid=14 (I tried to copy just the part about moving and couldn't do it ) PWB, what do you see, that could not be adapted by SASS as to this movement? Their 'finger out of the trigger guard' is SOP for all action shoot'n games. LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 My initial ruling (regarding moving while slam-firing a '97) was due to the PHYSICAL IMPOSSIBILITY of moving both feet in the micro-second's time between the simultaneous closing of the action and the firing of the chambered round. If you can find ANYONE able to do that, I'll back down from my position on this issue. There is already a rule outlawing video replay in making calls...NOT NECESSARY in this case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Night and day different. W3G is KISS ...... http://deadwoodboys.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=7&Itemid=14 (I tried to copy just the part about moving and couldn't do it ) PWB, what do you see, that could not be adapted by SASS as to this movement? Their 'finger out of the trigger guard' is SOP for all action shoot'n games. LG As previously noted, it would be most difficult (if not impossible) to get the TGs to "go backwards" on what many see as a safety issue. The "plant & poke" folks would likely go ballistic in opposing such re-regulation (not stuttering there...I'm sure that's a word in someone's dicitonary) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 PWB, How do you see it as 'go backwards' when many other action gun sports do the same as W3G? IMHO-I feel it would bring the action back into SASS. Respectfully, LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 My initial ruling (regarding moving while slam-firing a '97) was due to the PHYSICAL IMPOSSIBILITY of moving both feet in the micro-second's time between the simultaneous closing of the action and the firing of the chambered round. If you can find ANYONE able to do that, I'll back down from my position on this issue. There is already a rule outlawing video replay in making calls...NOT NECESSARY in this case. All kinds of rules get changed. Either expressly or by interpretation. That was just an example of what we might have to start doing if we go down the road of interpreting away the basketball rule. The direction this thread has gone is not just the case of the 97 but to the other CAS guns as well. There are lots of shooters that can fire their rifles and pistols faster than they can move two feet. The issue is do we want to go in that direction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Larsen-I say. Why not go that direction, if possible. It's an option, to move and shoot-NOT mandatory to do so. LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Allowing target engagement 'on the move' is dependent on the actual stage firing location(s) in the instructions. As HJ noted back a few posts, once the MDs at EoT realized that one (or more) stages were written to allow shooting WITHIN a firing "zone" rather than from a single location between point 'A' & 'B' for an individual firearm, the verbiage was amended to DISallow that. IMO...if the stage is written to ALLOW it, a capable shooter should be allowed to do so...if unable to accomplish it under the current rules, s/he will be penalized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Allowing target engagement 'on the move' is dependent on the actual stage firing location(s) in the instructions. As HJ noted back a few posts, once the MDs at EoT realized that one (or more) stages were written to allow shooting WITHIN a firing "zone" rather than from a single location between point 'A' & 'B' for an individual firearm, the verbiage was amended to DISallow that. IMO...if the stage is written to ALLOW it, a capable shooter should be allowed to do so...if unable to accomplish it under the current rules, s/he will be penalized. Gotcha. The only problem is the IMO. Is this the ROC's opinion? I have no problem putting the Action back into CAS. If, in fact, movement is allowed if the stage is written to allow it, then we need to cover this in more detail in the RO training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 PWB, How do you see it as 'go backwards' when many other action gun sports do the same as W3G? IMHO-I feel it would bring the action back into SASS. Respectfully, LG it would be "going backwards" if we proprosed to relax the current "basketball traveling rule" to allow movement with a cocked/loaded firearm during stage/target engagement. Even though that specific reg wasn't passed individually by the TGs, it was in the RO2 "as approved" when it was initially presented to the Territorial Governors. The SHB & RO1 were amended at the same time (as noted previously). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Gotcha. The only problem is the IMO. Is this the ROC's opinion? I have no problem putting the Action back into CAS. If, in fact, movement is allowed if the stage is written to allow it, then we need to cover this in more detail in the RO training. I haven't polled the ROC on this...it is a black & white application of the written rule that, in my opinion, doesn't need further interpretation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 it would be "going backwards" if we proprosed to relax the current "basketball traveling rule" to allow movement with a cocked/loaded firearm during stage/target engagement. Even though that specific reg wasn't passed individually by the TGs, it was in the RO2 "as approved" when it was initially presented to the Territorial Governors. The SHB & RO1 were amended at the same time (as noted previously). While I'm still dream'n some. What would it take to allow us to stage loaded w/2 rounds in the SGs? That is-You load the SG with 2, where/when you stage it(chamber clear/SxS not closed but shells in chamber). Again as per W3G. LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 While I'm still dream'n some. What would it take to allow us to stage loaded w/2 rounds in the SGs? That is-You load the SG with 2, where/when you stage it(chamber clear/SxS not closed but shells in chamber). Again as per W3G. LG That being an actual rule change, it would also have to go before the TGs for approval. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 It would be a big step forward for SASS, me thinks. LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madd Mike #8595 Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 It would be a big step forward for SASS, me thinks. LG me thinks also Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dang It Dan 13202 Posted March 20, 2014 Author Share Posted March 20, 2014 Thank you PWB. I have my answer. Before a shooter can take advantage of shooting on the move, the stage must lend itself to that possibility and there can be no instructions dis-allowing it. Of course, you had better be able to actually do it. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papa Irish Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Being primarily a long time USPSA shooter, I don't like the no moving and shooting rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checotah Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 Seems to me the basketball traveling rule addresses a given gun at a given point in time. If that gun is cocked and fired while one foot is planted, no call. Extend that then to the next gun, and back to the first and it would seem to be relatively easy for some of the faster shooters to get off 10 rounds within something less than 10 steps: no gun was continuously cocked and unfired during any two steps. Is that a valid statement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eusta B.Fast Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 My first thought goes to the shooters who KNOW they can't shoot on the move, but when offered the opportunity, will go ahead and try it anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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