Shooting on the move

[Bad Jeemes Kelly]

PWB, How do you see it as 'go backwards' when many other action gun sports do the same as W3G?

IMHO-I feel it would bring the action back into SASS.

Respectfully,

LG

I'm not really a SASS shooter yet, but I have been shooting IDPA and USPSA 3-gun for a few years. One thing that crossed my mind when my wife and I talked about starting cowboy matches was that it would be bad to develop a habit of having to stand still and shoot. One reason we shoot USPSA and IDPA is for practice with the guns we carry and standing still to shoot is certainly not something I want to practice or make a habit. That was actually one of my reasons for deciding not to shoot cowboy matches, then my father gave me a .44 lever action, so I changed my mind. In the end, I guess I'm OK with it, as long as most of my rounds are still being fired in matches where I can move.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

My first thought goes to the shooters who KNOW they can't shoot on the move, but when offered the opportunity, will go ahead and try it anyway.

 

Why do we seem to worry so much about what MIGHT happen?

The existing rule(s) cover that.

 

REF: post #59

[Noz]

This kind of thread makes me crazy.

 

If you don't like the SASS rules then go shoot with W3G and any of the alphabet shooting disciplines.

 

I like SASS, I like their(Our) rules and I will continue to shoot them.

 

You don't? Well, BYE!

[Dang It Dan 13202]

This kind of thread makes me crazy.

 

If you don't like the SASS rules then go shoot with W3G and any of the alphabet shooting disciplines.

 

I like SASS, I like their(Our) rules and I will continue to shoot them.

 

You don't? Well, BYE!

 

I hope that wasn't directed at me. I am NOT trying to change the rules. I am trying to get a clarification on the rules we have.

 

And saying "Well, BYE!" is exactly how we lose folks who are just asking questions. You may not be around in ten years, but others will be but only if we extend a certain amount of respect - especially here on the wire.

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

Well....bye....my azzz.....I'm grateful that DID axed da qwesshun... because FINALLY there is some movement on this subject, to wit: movement is allowed within the current rules as written..

 

What is wrong with that....NOTHING... especially since no one with a brain has ever just stood still in a gunfight and lived to tell stories about it.

 

Every other ACTION gun-sport not only allows movement but plans it in the shooting scenarios. Some going as far as awarding penalties for NOT moving.

 

Let's think "BIG TENT" rather than shooting those that are willing to MOVE out of the box.

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

This kind of thread makes me crazy.

 

If you don't like the SASS rules then go shoot with W3G and any of the alphabet shooting disciplines.

 

I like SASS, I like their(Our) rules and I will continue to shoot them.

 

You don't? Well, BYE!

If continue to shoot by OUR rules then if you choose to do so and stage design is open, you can MOVE while shooting.

 

Stan

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

My first thought goes to the shooters who KNOW they can't shoot on the move, but when offered the opportunity, will go ahead and try it anyway.

Your point is??

It's "optional" to shoot as you scoot-NOT mandatory.

Read the W3G rules that I and others have posted.

Don't knock it-IF you haven't tried it.

LG

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

This kind of thread makes me crazy.

 

If you don't like the SASS rules then go shoot with W3G and any of the alphabet shooting disciplines.

 

I like SASS, I like their(Our) rules and I will continue to shoot them.

 

You don't? Well, BYE!

WOW-Such and 'open-mind'.......NOT

Have you even tried W3G?

BTW-I shoot W3G and SASS.

LG

[Fast Enuff]

I'm really glad to see the discussion on this because this issue, and the one about when you can draw a gun depending on which direction you are facing, are pivotal to fair competiton. It's very frustrating when you have to tailor your movement depending on the posse you are on because some people will call SDQs for some of these things, are very strongly opinionated about it, and have not up until now been interested in what the rules say.

 

It is not fair to the shooter or the others at a match to have to get into a rules confrontation over this stuff. It's just unpleasant and no one here is shooting for money. We do this for entertainment on the weekends, no matter how hard we compete and no one likes to spend a half hour in a round table with the match officials. We just want to have a good clean shoot against our friends and peers.

 

Disagreements on these two issues sometimes makes it nearly impossible to be competitive, if you choose to be so, because different people are operating under different opinions on the rules.

 

It's not a good thing when have a posse of half a dozen people who know all about what movement is legal, and another posse with few or none that do that a couple of people that will SDQ at the drop of a hat for things like this that are expressly LEGAL.

 

It may be time for a focused campaign to get these legal / not legal movement issues out to everyone so all shooters are properly informed.

 

Seems like SASS has done a good job the last couple of years getting other common rules mistakes reduced at matches, this may be the next thing that needs work.

 

Thank you for the clear clarifications PW.

[Madd Mike #8595]

My first thought goes to the shooters who KNOW they can't shoot on the move, but when offered the opportunity, will go ahead and try it anyway.

geeese how else will they learn, besides trying it and or practice

if you shoot and move and do not break the 170, safely, I guess I must be missing your point

or are you sayin the person that knows they cant shoot and move, that they will break the 170 or fall down or somethin like that?

 

if cas were to allow shoot and move, and a shooter knows that they cant do it well,

no one is gunna make em shoot and move, that is my contention

[crooked jake,4371]

Hum...............what was the question??????

[Tex Fiddler SASS Life 10127]

This has been a long thread, but I think the bottom line is that we can shoot and move anytime we don't violate the stage instructions or the basketball rule.

 

Is that right?

 

-tex fiddler

[Maddog Mark]

I heard you witnessed this moving and shooting new thing that's taking off. I witnessed it yesterday and called the shooter to stop and explain. He explained and the match director said it's ok but this is going to open up a new way for everyone to shoot stages. What you say Tg's?

[Marauder SASS #13056]

This has been a long thread, but I think the bottom line is that we can shoot and move anytime we don't violate the stage instructions or the basketball rule.

 

Is that right?

 

-tex fiddler

I believe you are correct.

 

From what PaleWolf (our rule master) has said, I'm pretty certain:

http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=219854&page=2#entry2838093

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

Since nobody can be looking down at a shooters feet and at their gun at the same time, I guess no movement with a cocked gun should be called anymore, except on the very slowest shooters...

 

I understand the rule as written, but I think the implementation of the interpretation is gonna be a nightmare.

 

I can sure see this going bad in a hurry.

 

PS: on a side note, I really couldn't care less what any OTHER shooting sport does.

[crosscut hardy]

I have always had the mind set that Cowboy Action Shooting was a little safer than other

types shooting sports because of the fact we have a much broader age range and

experience level of shooters. We may have a 10 yr. old just learning to shoot and we may

have an 80 yr. old shooter with disabilities. We still manage to get all our shooters safely

shooting thru a stage AND they still remain just as much a vital part of SASS . . Cowboy

Action Shooting as all of us "young.. lol" shooters.

 

I think we could keep our current rule intact "basketball rule" one foot planted and for sure

our sport/game would not suffer one bit for doing so.

 

I do stay up with all rules and will adapt to whatever comes down.

 

...crosscut

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Since nobody can be looking down at a shooters feet and at their gun at the same time, I guess no movement with a cocked gun should be called anymore, except on the very slowest shooters...

 

I understand the rule as written, but I think the implementation of the interpretation is gonna be a nightmare.

 

I can sure see this going bad in a hurry.

 

PS: on a side note, I really couldn't care less what any OTHER shooting sport does.

+1. It is not necessarily the rule as written, but the rule as interpreted. I think it will come as quite a surprise to most SASS shooters that the admonition against shooting while moving has been interpreted away. This needs some clarification and guideance from the rules committee, not just the interpretations and IMO's from a few wire denizens.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

+1. It is not necessarily the rule as written, but the rule as interpreted. I think it will come as quite a surprise to most SASS shooters that the admonition against shooting while moving has been interpreted away.

It hasn't...a question was asked & the rule "as written" was applied.

BTW - Previously, the 'preamble' to the Conventions allowed movement with a cocked/loaded firearm if the stage directions specified so...as it was in the SHB & RO1 prior to the RO2 being accepted & published.

I don't recall hearing of anyone getting injured because of that allowance.

 

This needs some clarification and guideance from the rules committee, not just the interpretations and IMO's from a few wire denizens.

If you insist, I'll take this back to the ROC...the question re: moving while slam-firing a '97 was asked at EoT some years ago...it was answered by one of the Range Masters & the others, as well as the Match Directors concurrred (all of whom were on the ROC at that time).

Note HJ's post regarding the rewriting of the stages to DISallow doing so.

That didn't change the rule...just the application of same at that particular match.

IF there is a designated point of engagement for a firearm on a stage, a shooter would NOT be allowed to shoot 'on the move'

...the 'basketball traveling' rule restricts movement with the firearm in a specific condition.

THAT has NOT been "interpreted away".

 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

I wish y'all would get yer finger off the PANIC!! button.

This ain't anything new.

Stop & think about how stages are written...and then how many would actually allow shooting on the move (without violating the rule).

 

FWIW - Anyone with half-way decent peripheral vision should be able to observe if both feet move once a firearm is cocked

...i.e. from the time it is cocked until it is discharged (which can be heard if not seen) ONE FOOT must remain planted.

 

[McCandless]

 

REF: RO1 p.29 "Glossary of Terms" - Basketball Traveling rule

 

 

IF the stage instructions are open-ended enough to allow engaging targets from anywhere between two (or more) locations on the stage, a shooter MAY (IMO & barring any instructions to the contrary) move while actively firing a firearm...as long as at least one foot remains in place while the firearm is in a "action closed/hammer cocked" condition or while the hammer is cocked over an unfired round (depending on the type/model of firearm).

Our TG was explaining this to us this past weekend. (Practice sessions are great things!) Don't see what the problem is. If the stage is written so that you can fire the shotgun/rifle/ or pistol, anywhere between "here" and "there" and you do so within the above stated rule... you done it right!

[Gawd Awful]

None of what PW is saying is new. It's simple matter of enforcing the rules as written. I have done it myself before when there is plenty I room between your pistol position and your shotgun position and the stage is written "shoot your rifle between a and b" Even had a conversation with Black Jack Zac about it, and his interpretation was the same as PW.

 

It isn't doing away with or "reinterpreting" an existing rule, it's following the rule as written -- cock gun lift left foot pull trigger set foot down, cock gun lift right foot pull the trigger set foot down, cock gun lift left foot pull trigger set foot down. As long as the shooter takes care to pull the trigger BEFORE lifting your second foot. there is no "reinterpitation" of existing rules, or a violation of the existing rules. You are not gonna do this at a run anyway because you want to HIT the target.

 

If you don't want to do it don't, but don't stop capable and competent shooters from following the rules because they make YOU uncomfortable.

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

How many of y'all were in marching band in high school?

 

Or better yet marched in a drum corps?

 

One of the things they teach, almost preach on, is how to move paralell to the sideline without moving your upper body all about. Some times, you are doing it at a pretty good click.

 

Just one of those odd skills that you never think about being handy later in life...

[Captain Bill Burt]

As others have said this seems like a pretty straightforward interpretation of the rule. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be the most common interpretation. I like it, but before doing it I'll probably let the TO know what I plan to do and make sure he's OK with it (maybe print out relevant parts of this thread). An ounce of prevention and all that...

[Madd Mike #8595]

i have been told by some of the fastest shooters in cas

ya cant have both feet in the air at one time, hence

watch my feet and trigger finger at the same time (good luck)

 

I say, a shooter could jump up with both feet and shoot at the same time

but why, I ask wood they do that

 

movement while shooting to me would make cents, basket ball rule / no basket ball rule, stage writing a-side

 

oh well

tally hoe

 

ps

shooting on the move

to me:::::: watching other shooting sports is more of a shoot on the shuffle

it aint so much shoot at a dead on run for your life thing!

 

after all a shooter still wants to HIT their proper targets while moving

[Keystone, SASS # 47578]

Well,

 

How about a couple of videos to demonstrate the proper technique of "shooting on the move" with various firearms? A picture is worth a thousand words.

 

Hasta Luego, Keystone

[Most Wanted]

+1. It is not necessarily the rule as written, but the rule as interpreted. I think it will come as quite a surprise to most SASS shooters that the admonition against shooting while moving has been interpreted away. This needs some clarification and guideance from the rules committee, not just the interpretations and IMO's from a few wire denizens.

The question isn't if PWBs rule interpretation is right (cause it is) and he is the voice of the ROC . Certainly not some wire denizen like you and me . Anybody that has ever coached or played basketball knows there is no interpretation needed . Maybe at the time of its inception the rule writers did not fully mean to leave that door open . Maybe they did not have a full understanding of the rule they were referencing . People have been shooting while moving (just ask Phantom) for years and I am surprised that this was not common knowledge .

[Abanaki, SASS #34557]

Here we go again! Lets try to dissect the rule put some spin on it and say that it's ok to do because a rule does'nt specifically say you can't do it. As I see it this is a safety concern, we're not supposed to be running around with a loaded cocked (this includes slam firing by the way) firearm of any type because the chance of an accidental discharge is very real if the shooter makes one mistake or loses his or her footing. Also if someone is slipping or heaven forbid falling who's to say that that firearm won't be pointing at a person when it go's off? Don't know about anybody else but taking that kind or risk to cut a couple of tenths of a second off a score is just plain STUPID! Shooter should be solidly planted on both feet when firing and not moving. Any stage written with firing while moving is just asking for a tragedy and all the legal consequences that would certainly follow any injury on the range

[Elk Creek LeMieux]

I've done a ton of shooting on the move, and for the most part, none of it was very accurate.

 

That said, saying that shooting while moving is unsafe is a little ignorant.

 

If soldiers stopped moving every time they fired their weapon our casualty count in the recent conflicts would undoubtedly be much higher.

 

Edit: That sounds a little harsh, and I don't mean it that way.

 

I'm just saying, if you think it's unsafe to move and shoot, then you've never done it.

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

Here we go again! Lets try to dissect the rule put some spin on it and say that it's ok to do because a rule does'nt specifically say you can't do it. As I see it this is a safety concern, we're not supposed to be running around with a loaded cocked (this includes slam firing by the way) firearm of any type because the chance of an accidental discharge is very real if the shooter makes one mistake or loses his or her footing. Also if someone is slipping or heaven forbid falling who's to say that that firearm won't be pointing at a person when it go's off? Don't know about anybody else but taking that kind or risk to cut a couple of tenths of a second off a score is just plain STUPID! Shooter should be solidly planted on both feet when firing and not moving. Any stage written with firing while moving is just asking for a tragedy and all the legal consequences that would certainly follow any injury on the range

You should really go watch some other disciplines shoot. it gets done all the time. There is nothing inherently unsafe about shooting on the move.

 

By the way it's not dissecting the rule, it's EDUCATING on what the "basketball traveling" rule really means. Funny how many shooters ASSUME they know the rules of the game but haven't really taken the time to read and understand the rules. No where in the shooters hand book, RO1 or RO2 does it ever say BOTH feet must be planted before shooting so where would you come up with that theory?

 

 

Stan

 

PS. It's very UNCOMMON to see stage design that lends itself to shooting on the move. It takes the right targets at the right distances with the right distance between two positions AND even then it's not going to make a BIG difference......don't worry guys......the sky is not falling and the game is not going to morph overnight.......this is no different then when the new lightning rifle was going to take over SASS.....remember when that happened?......NOPE

[Dutch Al #22045]

We had a shooter entered in the Sand Creek Raiders annual Raid a few years back. During several stages, he moved along rapidly, firing his shotgun as he went. He was called for shooting while moving. The shooter appealed. The shooter replied that he had both feed on the ground each time he fired the gun. Fortunately there was a video, which was very closely reviewed. It turned out that he did, in fact, have both feet on the ground for each shot. Ended being a NO CALL. An impressive performance; he sure didn't waste any time with that shotgun, for sure....

[Captain Bill Burt]

We had a shooter entered in the Sand Creek Raiders annual Raid a few years back. During several stages, he moved along rapidly, firing his shotgun as he went. He was called for shooting while moving. The shooter appealed. The shooter replied that he had both feed on the ground each time he fired the gun. Fortunately there was a video, which was very closely reviewed. It turned out that he did, in fact, have both feet on the ground for each shot. Ended being a NO CALL. An impressive performance; he sure didn't waste any time with that shotgun, for sure....

 

ROII Page 13:

The use of recorded audio, video, or still photography cannot be used to make or challenge the call of Posse or Match Officials.

[Deuce Stevens SASS#55996]

You should really go watch some other disciplines shoot. it gets done all the time. There is nothing inherently unsafe about shooting on the move.

 

By the way it's not dissecting the rule, it's EDUCATING on what the "basketball traveling" rule really means. Funny how many shooters ASSUME they know the rules of the game but haven't really taken the time to read and understand the rules. No where in the shooters hand book, RO1 or RO2 does it ever say BOTH feet must be planted before shooting so where would you come up with that theory?

 

 

Stan

 

PS. It's very UNCOMMON to see stage design that lends itself to shooting on the move. It takes the right targets at the right distances with the right distance between two positions AND even then it's not going to make a BIG difference......don't worry guys......the sky is not falling and the game is not going to morph overnight.......this is no different then when the new lightning rifle was going to take over SASS.....remember when that happened?......NOPE

The sky is falling IPSC with cowboy hats. What's next???? Red dots and short stroke kits that don't require any lever movement at all...............................

[Lead Ringer]

I'm really glad to see the discussion on this because this issue, and the one about when you can draw a gun depending on which direction you are facing, are pivotal to fair competiton. It's very frustrating when you have to tailor your movement depending on the posse you are on because some people will call SDQs for some of these things, are very strongly opinionated about it, and have not up until now been interested in what the rules say.

 

It is not fair to the shooter or the others at a match to have to get into a rules confrontation over this stuff. It's just unpleasant and no one here is shooting for money. We do this for entertainment on the weekends, no matter how hard we compete and no one likes to spend a half hour in a round table with the match officials. We just want to have a good clean shoot against our friends and peers.

 

Disagreements on these two issues sometimes makes it nearly impossible to be competitive, if you choose to be so, because different people are operating under different opinions on the rules.

 

It's not a good thing when have a posse of half a dozen people who know all about what movement is legal, and another posse with few or none that do that a couple of people that will SDQ at the drop of a hat for things like this that are expressly LEGAL.

 

It may be time for a focused campaign to get these legal / not legal movement issues out to everyone so all shooters are properly informed.

 

Seems like SASS has done a good job the last couple of years getting other common rules mistakes reduced at matches, this may be the next thing that needs work.

 

Thank you for the clear clarifications PW.

Great point about "tailoring you shooting style" because who is your spotter or who is on your posse!

Nothing worse than shooting a stage properly and having some bad spotter try to convince everybody how you walked while shooting!!!

Regards

Ringer

[Buffalo Dick, SASS #12880]

At many of the places I shoot the spotters have to watch the targets through windows or around props. For a spotter to watch the targets and the shooter's feet on many stages would be impossible or would require spotters to have eyes like a chameleon or Marty Feldman (RIP). The TO is taught to be within arms length and to watch the gun, same problem.

 

It seems obvious that the present rules allow the practice with any firearm but it also seems likely that if this practice becomes widespread, enforcement will be difficult and inconsistent.

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

At many of the places I shoot the spotters...

 

I read that and spewed coffee all over my monitor!

 

 

I know you didn't mean it that way, and I am not even picking at it. I just wanted you to know that you made me laugh and really made me happy when I needed that...