Questions for Black Powder Shooters

[Tombstone Tex]

Hey all,

 

I have been thinking it is time to start shooting some BP cartridges. I loaded a few a while back and they were accurate as all get out. Oh, and it is in two Cimarron .45LC. I have a few questions though. I have done numerous searches and it is hard to find the answers I am looking for with the search features and google. Maybe because it is late I don't know. I figured "hey, the pards on the wire are excellent folks, they will lend a hand." So the questions now.

 

First question is, does anyone enlarge the primer hole for full cartridges or is that only blanks?

Second, does anyone use filler for the 45 colt loads? I can't remember how stout these were.

What bullets do you guys use that are commercially available? I am not exactly in the position to go about getting commercial bullets, melting the lube off and creating my own. This is mostly because we are coming up on the first match of the year here in NEPA....if the snow melts that is.

My final question (i know, finally!) is, I've seen a lot of different methods on cleaning the gun, as I think I have that down from shooting C&B, I wonder what you guys use to clean brass? As a side note, when I actually clean my brass, I usually use a sonic cleaner, but its seems that the BP cases are already sufficiently stained when I get back even from the range that a run through that doesn't clean them as well.

 

Sorry for the multitude of questions, I just thought it would be more convenient to have it all in one place instead of piecemealing everything, if my search terms work out well and I find the answers I am looking for that is. Thanks for takin' the time to read this!

 

 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

 

First question is, does anyone enlarge the primer hole for full cartridges or is that only blanks?

 

NO! You will get a lot of pressure back through the primer if you do, and ruin the cases for any kind of real-bullet loads.

 

Second, does anyone use filler for the 45 colt loads? I can't remember how stout these were.

 

.45 Colt filled with BP or subs is a little stout, especially in revolvers. More recoil than most smokeless cowboy loads. Filler can be used. It's a topic of it's own. I use fine granulated charcoal, because it is already part of any black powder, and it does not pack tightly as it ages. Have used grits, cream of wheat, etc, but they can pack tightly with age.

 

What bullets do you guys use that are commercially available? I am not exactly in the position to go about getting commercial bullets, melting the lube off and creating my own. This is mostly because we are coming up on the first match of the year here in NEPA....if the snow melts that is.

 

Try either Springfield Slim or Desperado Bulllets. A 200 grain RNFP is a good design for SASS. Both of these commercial casters use lubes that will work with BP. And, a soft lead slug is much better than a hard cast bullet.

 

My final question (i know, finally!) is, I've seen a lot of different methods on cleaning the gun, as I think I have that down from shooting C&B, I wonder what you guys use to clean brass?

 

Soapy water, shake and let soak, then rinse with water until rinse comes out clean. Dry, then tumble in lizard litter (crushed walnut hulls). A little stain will remain, probably, but it will be clean. Stain does not hurt a thing except your feelings.

 

As a side note, when I actually clean my brass, I usually use a sonic cleaner, but its seems that the BP cases are already sufficiently stained when I get back even from the range that a run through that doesn't clean them as well.

 

Sorry for the multitude of questions, I just thought it would be more convenient to have it all in one place instead of piecemealing everything, if my search terms work out well and I find the answers I am looking for that is. Thanks for takin' the time to read this!

 

Good luck, GJ

[Griff]

If you're doin' differently than GJ, you're just workin' too hard.

[Lefty Dude, SASS # 51223]

If you use 45 Schofield Brass you will not need fillers. The cases are approx. 1/4" shorter than 45 LC's.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

WARTHOG'S RULE

LG

[Madd Mike #8595]

blanks I have used on a movie set in a very low budget movie

were regular brass, (no enlarged primer hole) black powder and the green art foam used for flowers to hold the powder in.

or cap and ball with BP and grean flower art foam

[Hollifer A. Dollar]

I use grits as a filler in 45LC rifle & Cowboy 45 Special pistol rounds...because I am cheap. 0.5 cc of grits in the 45LC, 0.3 cc in the C45S & I still get good performance (flames/smoke/boom) while saving about 25%.

 

Holler

[Gawd Awful]

Google "black powder for dummies" by Capt George Baylor. He has a great section on "fillers"

 

He also has a section on cleaning

 

As far as the brass goes, I keep a jug of soapy water with me at the match and drop the brass in there. Take it home, rinse it off and let it dry, then clean as normal

[Box Herder, SASS 73857]

Seat a primer on virgin brass- fill to just touching bullet= fire and repeat.

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

Inert fillers are better if you don't get to shoot the ammo within a relatively short period. One of our pards did some time testing of cereal based fillers and found that pressures began to rise alarmingly over time, probably due to moisture absorption. I use a finely ground walnut shell that I got as lizard litter from a pet store. Bought a 6# bag about 4 years ago and still have 1/2 a bag left. Shoot about 3 to 4K pistol rounds a year. Set my old 450 Dillon up with two powder measures and use a seat/crimp die in the last station. Decide how much BP you want and fill the rest of the case with your filler of choice.

 

CR

[Brimstone Bill Willson]

I just fired my first BP rounds last weekend. I used grits as a filler because I from Georgia . I ordered my bullets from:

http://www.whyteleatherworks.com/BigLube.html

He uses the BigLube brand molds, and he lubes them with a blackpowder friendly lube.

[rdstrain49]

If I want a load that is a bit more manageable I use 1 1/2 f or 2 f Swiss. No filler and pleasant to shoot.

[Noz]

The best filler on a black powder cartridge is black powder.

[German Jim]

The best filler on a black powder cartridge is black powder.

BIG PLUS 1!

[Knarley Bob]

BIG PLUS 1!

+2

[Mad Dog McGee]

Hollywood , Be forewarned....... Once You start shooting REAL BP you won't want to go back!

Primer pockets enlarged are for blanks, for fillers I've used grits , worked ok , but now I'm trying floral foam ( Green foam florist use) seems to shoot ok; next match is 3-8-14 so I'll see how they do.

Just ordered an Extreme Tumbler Rebel 17 with SS media. I'm using ceramic now but the primer pockets won't clean up. But the best way is wet tumbling .

Big Lube bullets

I use baby wipes for cleaning my guns(weapons).

Good luck and welcome to shooting the way that it really was!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Three Foot Johnson]

Hey all,

 

I have been thinking it is time to start shooting some BP cartridges. I loaded a few a while back and they were accurate as all get out. Oh, and it is in two Cimarron .45LC. I have a few questions though. I have done numerous searches and it is hard to find the answers I am looking for with the search features and google. Maybe because it is late I don't know. I figured "hey, the pards on the wire are excellent folks, they will lend a hand." So the questions now.

 

First question is, does anyone enlarge the primer hole for full cartridges or is that only blanks?

Tried it (3/32"), didn't see any difference.

Second, does anyone use filler for the 45 colt loads? I can't remember how stout these were.

Oh hell no! Ya use MORE BP for filler!

What bullets do you guys use that are commercially available? I am not exactly in the position to go about getting commercial bullets, melting the lube off and creating my own. This is mostly because we are coming up on the first match of the year here in NEPA....if the snow melts that is.

230 RN for .45acp works great with BP - I used 260 grain SWC's in 4 5/8" Vaqueros at my last match and they were on the verge of being *unpleasant* after a few stages with a full case of BP. Other than a POS Taurus Thunderbolt, I no longer have any rifles in .45 Colt.

My final question (i know, finally!) is, I've seen a lot of different methods on cleaning the gun, as I think I have that down from shooting C&B, I wonder what you guys use to clean brass? As a side note, when I actually clean my brass, I usually use a sonic cleaner, but its seems that the BP cases are already sufficiently stained when I get back even from the range that a run through that doesn't clean them as well.

As long as they're clean and won't scratch my dies, the BP patina doesn't bother me a bit. Soap & hot water, then a couple hours in the tumbler when they're dry.

 

Sorry for the multitude of questions, I just thought it would be more convenient to have it all in one place instead of piecemealing everything, if my search terms work out well and I find the answers I am looking for that is. Thanks for takin' the time to read this!

 

 

[Tombstone Tex]

Many thanks for the replies thus far pards, I absolutely LOVE the enthusiasm. I definitely want to go to the dark side so-to-speak because the adventure I went on the last time with BP was just excellent. Everyone has been so helpful and I am thoroughly enjoying learning about better ways of doing this. I can't wait for the next match and hope it is good enough for us to attend. It has been a long winter, and I just picked up a nice new gun that just asks for black powder. It is a BP framed gun after all . Thanks again folks and keep the responses coming. I will certainly try to respond quicker myself.

[Madd Mike #8595]

the filler I use is black powder

that saves a loading step too

[ORNERY OAF]

this yar "filler" you speak of, cream of wheat, cerial and the like???? dont that take space from your holy black in your cartridge???? madness!!!!

 

recipie- Big Bullet+Black Powder+brass+primer==smash together-have fun

[Willie Earp, SASS#19022]

OKAY so I thought I might "chime" in here

 

Second, does anyone use filler for the 45 colt loads? I can't remember how stout these were.

My "pet" load for a 45 Colt is about 26 grains of powder with Cornmeal Filler. If you can find some Jalapeno flavored cornmeal, it will leave an interesting scent when you shoot it! For the 357's and 38 spls, I don't use ANY filler.

 

What bullets do you guys use that are commercially available?

You really need to be shooting SPG lubed bullets and these can get very pricy. I like pinching my pennies, so I cast and lube my own bullets.

 

I wonder what you guys use to clean brass?

I have a two-step process. Step 1: When I get done with a match, I IMMEDIATELY dump my BP used brass into a tumbler with used coffee grounds; the fresher they are, the better it works. I don't like using soapy water, because I leave them in there too long and they end up getting stained pink. Somehow the acid in the coffee grounds seems to scour away all the BP fouling. If the grounds are too damp, you will need to sift them out and let them dry a few days, to get all the grounds out. I also don't use the coffee grounds more than a few times, because the seem to loose their potency fairly quiclky. Step 2: Polish the brass as per normal. I drop them in with the regular smokeless-used brass. Viola!!! Clean and polished!

 

Regards,

Willie

[Madd Mike #8595]

this yar "filler" you speak of, cream of wheat, cerial and the like???? dont that take space from your holy black in your cartridge???? madness!!!!

 

recipie- Big Bullet+Black Powder+brass+primer==smash together-have fun

ya

I dont get it either

not even the saveings of $$ (malt-0-meal vs BP) buying all the equipment, driving to the match, paying the shoot fees, then save ? per round????

black powder charges were pretty much designed as fill her up, let her fly, duck the smoke if ya have to

I can just see the civil war battels relived, cannon fire: x amount of holly black, then 2 boxes of cream of wheat, then add the round

"fire"

I know apples vs cannon fire (not the same thing)

[Krazy Kajun]

I use grits as a filler in 45LC rifle & Cowboy 45 Special pistol rounds...because I am cheap. 0.5 cc of grits in the 45LC, 0.3 cc in the C45S & I still get good performance (flames/smoke/boom) while saving about 25%.

 

Holler

I used grits for a while in the limited amount of BP shooting I do but, like others have said, the cartridges can get a little higher pressure over time. As far as grits, I've been told that it was because they soak up any moisture that may be in the BP and if you put water on grits they expand...thus creating more compaction resulting in greater compression and pressure. If there is someone here that knows for sure why grits expand and its not because of soaking up moisture from the BP itself please let me know....I've always wondered about that.

 

I now use, thanks to a suggestion a Georgia shooter "extraordinaire" Tuco Forsyth, worn out tumbling media (ground walnut shells) because I was going to throw it out on the grass anyway. It's inert and free.

 

Krazy (what is known as being exceeding thrifty and whose father was know as "Brucestien") Kajun

[Willie Earp, SASS#19022]

_{Okay, so there seems to be a question going on about Full House Loads versus the Fillers. So here is my take on this.}

 

_{For the 45 Colt, I really like the filler option, for several reasons. First of all, it gives a more managable recoil for the pistols, and it makes shooting them more enjoyable for me. Secondly, my pistols seem to shoot more accurately with this load. No difference on the rifle, however. Thirdly, the cornmeal filler seems to have a cleaning effect on the bore, and I notice less fouling. Some in the pistol, but VERY noticable in the rifle bore. The cost, for me, does not enter into this at all.}

 

_{I have noticed that when I take apart one of my filler loads, the corn meal compresses and forms a nice wad between the powder and bullet that is very consistient with each load. When I put more or less filler in the load, the compression depth is the same and the filler will conform to the compression in the load. I would think that IF the filler were to absorb any moisture from the powder (which is hydroscopic, by the way), the the amount of compression inside the cartridge would not change one bit.}

 

_Regards,

_Willie

[FriscoCounty]

The US Army stopped using Colt's revolver cartridges Caliber .45 in August of 1874 and changed over to the Revolver Ball Cartridge, Caliber .45. The new case was 1.10" long, vs 1.29", lowering the capacity to from 40 grains to 28 grains of BP behind a 230 grain bullet. The new cartridge could be used in both the Colt 1873 and the Schofield revolvers.

 

So, unless you use one on those fantasy .45 Colt lever action rifles, feel free to switch to .45 Schofield brass for a lighter load.

[Tumblin Tom]

Been shooting BP for 7 years now. No problems and easy clean up. I but my empty cases in a jar of water and dish soap after each stage. They stay there until I get home were I pour off the water and spread them out on the driveway to dry. After they dry I put them in the tumbler with walnut media with a squirt of brass cleaner about 3 hours and they are done.. They come out clean and shinny brass. As for my guns the rifle and pistols I use a cleaning patch made by Traditions find them at Bass Pro or Academy Sports or other sports stores that sells BP products for the hunters. These Patches will cut through the BP allowing you to run a brass brush than a couple of patches and they are clean. If you do find any lead build up just run a lead remover screen thru and a patch. Lube your gun up with oil and finished. As for shotguns put enough hot water to put your barrel in about two inches and run a brush up and down about 5 or 6 times then a patch and a snake and your done with some oil. That's about all you have to do with that. Cleaning mine and my wife's guns takes me about 45 minutes to complete. As for bullets either get some big lube ones or set up as I do to pour your own and either pan lube or get a lube sizer. As for 45 filler I use a real fine wood grain I buy from http://www.blackdawgecartridge.com/cgi-bin/bdstore/perlshop.cgi?ACTION=thispage&thispage=bd_filler.html&ORDER_ID=901684790

This is not expensive $43.00 for 3 three pound bags. I am still using the bags I bought 4 years ago for my 45LC. No filler is needed in the 38 special. I also buy my powder from these guys. Great prices and include shipping but you have to go to http://www.powderinc.com/catalog/index.html to get powder. Good Luck and welcome to the Dark Side.

[Madd Mike #8595]

for crying out loud,

black powder and recoil should stand out as a distinct difference from smokless categories

 

I eat grits, dont wish to shoot with it as a component

 

mileage will vary

 

PS

and yes, I have experienced the race to to bottom of recoil in cas over the years

along with the race to dang near no smoke in bp categories

 

that is why I believe what I believe

[Cheatin' Chamberlin]

I like them both ways. I like shooting the lighter loads on some days. Then there are days where nothing will do but the big bore stuffed full of BP . Just shooting the BP loads is alot more fun than shooting smokeless to me anyways. So do what you will and have fun doing it!

 

 

Cheatin'

[Rex M Rugers #6621]

I personally do not use a filler in my BP loads , don't need 'em with 44 Special & 44 Russian. But it is as good a use for grits as any. YETCH on eating the stuff. YMMV.

Rex , who likes cornbread , though.

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

 

The US Army stopped using Colt's revolver cartridges Caliber .45 in August of 1874 and changed over to the Revolver Ball Cartridge, Caliber .45. The new case was 1.10" long, vs 1.29", lowering the capacity to from 40 grains to 28 grains of BP behind a 230 grain bullet. The new cartridge could be used in both the Colt 1873 and the Schofield revolvers.

 

So, unless you use one on those fantasy .45 Colt lever action rifles, feel free to switch to .45 Schofield brass for a lighter load.

Actually, the Army had switched to 30 grain loads in 45 Colt by that time. Civilian loads continued to be the 40 grain loads, but the Army went to 30 grains. The Revolver Ball Cartridge you speak of was not introduced until 1875, when the Schofield model was introduced. So lowering the powder content from 30 grains to 28 grains did not make a heck of a lot of difference.

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/cartridges/45ColtBenetPrimedBox02_zps0e1df06e.jpg

 

 

As for shotguns put enough hot water to put your barrel in about two inches and run a brush up and down about 5 or 6 times then a patch and a snake and your done with some oil. That's about all you have to do with that.

Be very careful with that method. I used to do that too. Then I discovered that the brazed fillets between the barrels on my 1916 vintage SXS were somewhat 'leaky'. They were letting water get inside the area between the barrels. Not good. The water could stay in there for a long time, causing hidden rust. I don't do that anymore.

 

It is not necessary to lug a jug of water around for the entire match. I leave my jug of water/dishsoap in the car, and I dump my empties into it at the end of the match. That is plenty soon enough. However, if the brass is allowed to sit for 24 hours before being soaked, corrosion will set in.

 

I don't use fillers. I did for awhile, but it was too much extra work. Dump in enough powder so that when the bullet is seated the powder is compressed by 1/16" - 1/8". You can't stuff as much powder into modern solid head brass as you could into the old balloon head or folded rim cartridges* anyway. Too much extra work for not much savings. I just load them full up and shoot them. 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 44-40, 44 Russian, 38-40. By the way, 44 Russian doesn't have much powder capacity, so on Antique S&W 44 days, recoil is very mild.

 

* The cartridges in the photo are Benet primed, folded rim cartridges. Made at the Army's Frankford Arsenal in 1874.

[Tombstone Tex]

Wow this thread certainly picked up, I appreciate all the input and will definitely try certain things in here. I guess to be clear about the filler question, I am not looking at it as a cost saving measure by any means, I am just looking in terms of recoil. Some out there refer to the .45 ACP cartridge as "arthritis inducing recoil" and while I am not recoil sensitive...yet...I don't wanna run towards being recoil sensitive. That is why I asked about fillers because the .45 Colt can get pretty stout. Also, it has been some time since I've loaded any full house loads. I think I will to start anyway, just to get a reminder of how it feels, if its not bad, I'll stay with it. If I think it can get rough doing it through a whole match, I may take a look at reducing and using fillers.

 

P.S. I know it is going to feel a lot different from my Trailboss load which almost feels like a .22.

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Howdy Again

 

Regarding recoil with full house Black Powder loads and 45 Colt: I have always shot 45 Colt in my pistols in CAS. I stared with Smokeless loads. Never 'wimp' loads, but never Earth Shakers either. Regular 250 grain bullets going about 800 fps (sorry, can't give you the specifics on the Wire).

 

When I first decided to shoot Black Powder I had heard that the recoil would be massive so I decided to buy a Ruger Vaquero with the Bisley grip in order to absorb the anticipated massive recoil. Used it in exactly one match. I soon realized that the standard plow handle grip is fine for full house BP loads. The trick is to not hold the gun with a death grip. Instead, allow it to rotate in the hand with recoil. And the trick to that is to not attempt to cram the entire hand onto the grip. I soon realized that curling my pinky under the grip allowed me to hold lower on the grip. Exactly the opposite of what we are taught with the 1911. Holding lower on the grip allows a gap of about 1/4" between the rear of the trigger guard and the knuckle of the middle finger. That 1/4" prevents the trigger guard from painfully whacking the knuckle in recoil. Gripping the gun relatively lightly allows it to rotate in my hand in recoil. What happens is as the gun fires, it first rotates in my hand, dissipating some of the recoil energy. At some point my pinky prevents the gun from rotating any farther. No, it does not hurt the pinky. Instead what happens is as the pinky arrests the roll of the gun, my entire hand and forearm rise a bit with the remainder of the recoil energy. Recoil stops when the gun has rotated up about 30 degrees or so. Then as I snap the gun back down I use the downward motion to help me cock the hammer for the next shot.

 

Try it, you might like it. The recoil is not intimidating with a full house load of FFg and a 250 grain bullet. Much less than a 357 Mag or 44 Mag.

 

Yes, it is slower than shooting mouse fart loads in a 38, but that's not what shooting Black Powder is all about anyway. At least it shouldn't be. Yes, I am talking about shooting duelist style, with just one hand on the gun, the way a 45 should be shot. Pardon me for making that provocative statement.

 

P.S. I sold that Bisley Ruger soon after the one match I used it in. Used the money towards one of my 2nd Gen Colts.

[Red Beard Bandit, SASS #45482]

Would crushed corncob be a safe filler?

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

Would crushed corncob be a safe filler?

Whatever you use should be finely ground. I have not seen corncob ground finely enough for my satisfaction, but it may exist. The finely ground walnut lizard litter is easy to come by and works very well. The cereals are OK if you shoot them relatively soon (a couple of months?) after loading. I want to say it was Jabez Cowboy who did the research?

 

It's not too difficult if you work out a system, and shooting is easier on your wrists if you download a little. I only shoot the genuine stuff, so I can't comment on the alternatives, but there is plenty of smoke and flame from these guns.

 

CR

[Tombstone Tex]

Yes, it is slower than shooting mouse fart loads in a 38, but that's not what shooting Black Powder is all about anyway. At least it shouldn't be. Yes, I am talking about shooting duelist style, with just one hand on the gun, the way a 45 should be shot. Pardon me for making that provocative statement.

 

Much appreciated. As I am not in the "gaming" mood, I am out to have a good time and make a mess , if I happen to shoot well and place well that is an added bonus. Shooting it duelist. I was thinking of doing that my next match, maybe do some gunfighter one day. My first match I shot with the two hand hold, while definitely quick, it was the first time I fired my colt clone like that. If I decide that speed is my idea I may go back though. So I thoroughly enjoy that statement.