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ROC Clarification - Action Closing on Long Gun


Blackjack Zak

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So, someone touches or moves the long gun in question, other than the shooter and it becomes a no call? With an empty round in the chamber or on the carrier or a live round on the carrier, a MSV, and a live round in the chamber a SDQ no matter what?

 

Kinda' cleans up some things.

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So, someone touches or moves the long gun in question, other than the shooter and it becomes a no call? With an empty round in the chamber or on the carrier or a live round on the carrier, a MSV, and a live round in the chamber a MDQ no matter what?

 

Kinda' cleans up some things.

 

Suggest a review of the RO1 (Appendix B, Penalty Overview, p.24)

 

^_^

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Suggest a review of the RO1 (Appendix B, Penalty Overview, p.24)

 

^_^

 

NAH!! Just a late night disconnect from the brain to the fingers!! :rolleyes: Edited as needed.

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Wow ... the game is changing ... and that's cool ...

 

This is "the answer" for a super light lever spring and will allow some "more aggressive" gun tossing (to table tops) that you see sometimes (hope it doesn't promote irresponsible gun tossing) ... kinda neat for SxS shotguns too!! (need to practice that and see how it really feels).

 

Most places have all but eliminated vertical re-staging ... seldom see that anymore ... (in any case ... if it hits the ground they still have a problem ... sooo that's that ) ...

 

... but ... that is all OK too ...

 

Just sayin' ... gonna be shocking to some as this comes up to speed ... (if you count nine ... dive for cover ...etc etc ...)

 

Not trying to be negative ... just saying how it feels ... trying it on for the first time ...

 

I trust all involved in these changes considered all this and more.

 

Pete

 

 

 

 

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It has been in the past that if somebody other than the shooter moved a rifle that was found to have and empty round on the carrier without calling the TO over to see the infraction it was a no call, I would ASSUME the same for live round on carrier.

 

KK

 

I have heard that KK. I also know that under the old rule I wouldn't make a closed lever call on a shooter if his gun had been handled unless I had seen that it was closed prior to the handling.

So, someone touches or moves the long gun in question, other than the shooter and it becomes a no call? With an empty round in the chamber or on the carrier or a live round on the carrier, a MSV, and a live round in the chamber a SDQ no matter what?

 

Kinda' cleans up some things.

This is where my question comes in. Now that the shooter is OK if an empty long gun ends up closed does he need as much protection from handling by third parties? Are we taking the position that an expediter touching a long gun negates any penalties regarding empty cases and live rounds discovered subsequently? If that is our position aren't we implying the expediter has somehow introduced doubt as to where the offending case/round came from?

 

I'm not taking a position on what the answer should be, I am just interested in hearing it.

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I have heard that KK. I also know that under the old rule I wouldn't make a closed lever call on a shooter if his gun had been handled unless I had seen that it was closed prior to the handling.

This is where my question comes in. Now that the shooter is OK if an empty long gun ends up closed does he need as much protection from handling by third parties? Are we taking the position that an expediter touching a long gun negates any penalties regarding empty cases and live rounds discovered subsequently? If that is our position aren't we implying the expediter has somehow introduced doubt as to where the offending case/round came from?

 

I'm not taking a position on what the answer should be, I am just interested in hearing it.

In the overall picture of things the expediter really doesn't save a whole bunch of time, also no doubt being introduced by expediter just making sure that there isn't any doubt that the lever was closed and the rifle or shotgun was empty. Because you know as well as I do that there is a very small percentage of shooters who will argue the fact if not done by the rules this just precludes that from happening.

 

KK

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Good to see you back on the Wire CBB!

 

The expediter is actually a good idea when it is a large match and using an expediter can help move things along. The only caveat I would say concerning an expediter would be to give them EXPLICIT instructions that if the lever or action on a rifle (or lever action shotgun) is closed or even close to being closed that they should NOT touch the gun. Also if the expediter sees a long gun with a live round or empty on the carrier of a rifle or hull in a shotgun that they should NOT touch the gun. Given those instructions I think that expediters could be beneficial.

 

If the expeditor touches a gun that has the action closed or has a round on the carrier or hull in the shotgun then it should be a no call regardless of what is in it. I hope it would not happen but it would not be good if a "friend" of the shooter is an expeditor and decides to pick up a "questionable" gun to provide the "no call" for his pard.

 

Kajun

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Hi Folks,

 

Guns may still be expedited if they are found open and empty. If the long gun has it's action closed the shooter must be the one to open it. Whenever there is a potential penalty involved, the shooter should get to verify that it is clear or not.

 

For example, the RR Bar range in Lucerne Valley has an elevated platform. If the shooter's action is closed, they verify clear for the TO, then others can expedite one or more long guns down the stairs.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

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Hi Folks,

 

Guns may still be expedited if they are found open and empty. If the long gun has it's action closed the shooter must be the one to open it. Whenever there is a potential penalty involved, the shooter should get to verify that it is clear or not.

 

For example, the RR Bar range in Lucerne Valley has an elevated platform. If the shooter's action is closed, they verify clear for the TO, then others can expedite one or more long guns down the stairs.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

This is why the question of what to do with a 'handled' long gun is interesting to me. I don't see how a long gun with the lever closed is any more likely to incur a penalty than one that is open. In either case if there is a round/case in there a penalty applies. The only difference is that the shooter may have failed to work the action/shuck one final time in the case of the closed gun. I'm in agreement that it shouldn't be touched, but I'm not sure I agree that handling should nullify a casing or round penalty. Are we worried that the 'handler' may insert something in there? Other than that I don't see what negative rules affect handling causes other than disturbing the shooter (which is why I don't like mine to be handled at all).

 

PS Thanks Kajun!

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Something to remember.

The rules where changed and you can load more than the required number of rounds for a stage in your rifle.

You are suppose to make sure the rifle is empty before letting go of it by jacking out the extra rounds.

If you don't, then the rifle can become closed and loaded.

 

My opinion.

Two rules that should not have been approved.

Loading more rounds than the stage instructions call for being a "No Call" if removed before leaving shooter hands.

And this one on Closed Actions.

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This is why the question of what to do with a 'handled' long gun is interesting to me. I don't see how a long gun with the lever closed is any more likely to incur a penalty than one that is open. In either case if there is a round/case in there a penalty applies. The only difference is that the shooter may have failed to work the action/shuck one final time in the case of the closed gun. I'm in agreement that it shouldn't be touched, but I'm not sure I agree that handling should nullify a casing or round penalty. Are we worried that the 'handler' may insert something in there? Other than that I don't see what negative rules affect handling causes other than disturbing the shooter (which is why I don't like mine to be handled at all).

 

PS Thanks Kajun!

Bill, exactly by not letting anybody touch the rifle if closed, it takes away that doubt did that person put something in that persons rifle, can't be used as a what if, and when the shooter handles his or her rifle and it is found to be in violation ie: spent shell on carrier then they own the penalty and can't argue the fact because you know as well as I do their are a few that will argue until they turn blue.

 

KK

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Would someone answer the question and stop saying what's supposed to happen ie : only shooter handles gun if closed. What happens if expediter handles a closed gun and any type of round is found in it. Thanks

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Would someone answer the question and stop saying what's supposed to happen ie : only shooter handles gun if closed. What happens if expediter handles a closed gun and any type of round is found in it. Thanks

Exactly. I understand what the rule is with respect to handling a gun with a closed lever, don't do it. I haven't found anything in the rule books that states such handling will nullify a penalty. I also don't understand the mindset that handling the gun negates the penalty (again, I understand the need for the rule to not handle).

 

We trust posse members to call misses, safety violations, procedurals, etc., but we're worried that one of those same members might spike someone's long gun? Admittedly I've only been doing this for a couple of years, but I've never encountered anyone I thought would do something like that. If we have people doing things like that we've got bigger worries than this rule. Do we really need a rule to prevent that, or do we need one to pacify a potentially aggrieved shooter?

 

The more I think about it the more I come to the conclusion that a long gun with a closed action that is handled by the TO/Spotter, etc. should incur a penalty if it is found to contain a case or round. If I can't trust them on that call why trust them on the others? Of course they should be taken aside and reminded not to do it again, but I don't see throwing out a potential SDQ over it.

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Would someone answer the question and stop saying what's supposed to happen ie : only shooter handles gun if closed. What happens if expediter handles a closed gun and any type of round is found in it. Thanks

Hi,

 

At most matches I've attended, it is a no call. I remember, last year at our state match, the shooter left an empty round in his SG. Another shooter pulled out and tossed it on the ground. I saw that; but, the shooter and TO didn't; so, it was a "no call." Maybe that should be in writing. However it isn't.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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Thanks Allie,

 

It seems to me that under the old rule a rifle with a closed action that had been handled was a no call (with respect to the status of the action) because the handler might have inadvertently closed a partially open action. To me there's a world of difference between default BOD due to a potential inadvertent action and default BOD because some may have intentionally spiked a long gun. The first action is almost certain to occur periodically, is the second a big enough probability to require default BOD in this case?

 

So if we give the shooter a pass we're doing it either because we think there's the potential someone tried to cheat them, or we want to head off a commotion over the fact that their long gun was handled.

 

Or maybe I'm just way way off base, wouldn't be the first time.

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Would someone answer the question and stop saying what's supposed to happen ie : only shooter handles gun if closed. What happens if expediter handles a closed gun and any type of round is found in it. Thanks

No Call every where I have shot, but again some clubs have their own special rules so I can't give a 100% no call. I know everybody loves finding validation in the rules but you know as well as I do, not everything is covered in the rules if so we would have a 15 volume rule book, so common sense has to prevail at some point, the common sense answer is no call, just because as I said before it takes all the what if's out of the senario, if you didn't you would have 15 to 20 people at a big shoot challenging calls all the way up to the MD.

 

KK

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Thanks Allie,

 

It seems to me that under the old rule a rifle with a closed action that had been handled was a no call (with respect to the status of the action) because the handler might have inadvertently closed a partially open action. To me there's a world of difference between default BOD due to a potential inadvertent action and default BOD because some may have intentionally spiked a long gun. The first action is almost certain to occur periodically, is the second a big enough probability to require default BOD in this case?

 

So if we give the shooter a pass we're doing it either because we think there's the potential someone tried to cheat them, or we want to head off a commotion over the fact that their long gun was handled.

 

Or maybe I'm just way way off base, wouldn't be the first time.

And yes it just takes all the what if's out of the senario. it leaves nothing up for question.

 

KK

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I understand your position KK and I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just trying to follow this line of reasoning to a logical conclusion. So I did a search and found no penalty that specifically addresses a cocked long gun with a live round in the chamber leaving the shooters hands. A live round in the chamber of a LG is a SDQ, here we have the possibility of a live round in the chamber under a cocked hammer and we're going to make a no call because someone touched the gun? And we don't even have a rule to point to that directs us to do that? That doesn't make sense to me.

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I understand your position KK and I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just trying to follow this line of reasoning to a logical conclusion. So I did a search and found no penalty that specifically addresses a cocked long gun with a live round in the chamber leaving the shooters hands. A live round in the chamber of a LG is a SDQ, here we have the possibility of a live round in the chamber under a cocked hammer and we're going to make a no call because someone touched the gun? And we don't even have a rule to point to that directs us to do that? That doesn't make sense to me.

Pretty much Yes, until the ROC says something different.

 

KK

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The position of expediter and the practice of expediting needs to go away today if not yesterday. How did we even get started doing this. It saves zero time, it is busy work for a posse member who could be doing more valuable work. The shooter has to come back by all his discarded long guns. It takes a mere second or less to retrieve his own dang guns.

 

We do not have this nonsense of expediting in WBAS shooting and should not have it in CAS either.

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If you have a really good shooting partner he will pick up the rifle and move it for you.

I will be watching you and your buddy :)

 

KK

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The position of expediter and the practice of expediting needs to go away today if not yesterday. How did we even get started doing this. It saves zero time, it is busy work for a posse member who could be doing more valuable work. The shooter has to come back by all his discarded long guns. It takes a mere second or less to retrieve his own dang guns.

 

We do not have this nonsense of expediting in WBAS shooting and should not have it in CAS either.

Darlin',

 

I do not want to walk down stairs with a long gun in each hand. If I'm wearing a long skirt, I want one hand on the hand rail and one holding my skirt up so I won't slip on it.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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Gaming the rule implies premeditated action to gain an advantage...

 

You have to open the action to expel the last fired case/hull no matter what, how does closing the action gain you anything?

 

As has been pointed out already, the 'option' to close a double before restaging may be advantageous in some cases, but you still have to open and shuck spent hulls.

 

I don't really see a way to 'game' this rule.

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The position of expediter and the practice of expediting needs to go away today if not yesterday. How did we even get started doing this. It saves zero time, it is busy work for a posse member who could be doing more valuable work. The shooter has to come back by all his discarded long guns. It takes a mere second or less to retrieve his own dang guns.

 

We do not have this nonsense of expediting in WBAS shooting and should not have it in CAS either.

 

Lone Dog, I completely disagree. Clubs I shoot at have stages where the shooter would have to walk all the way back across the bay to retrieve long guns. You could suggest running the stage in the other direction, but then the time would be spent staging, and besides, where is the fun in always running each stage the same direction?

 

Knowing that is was a discussion item at the convention, I watched at the last match, and we expedited on a majority of the stages. Yes, there are those who do not want anyone handling their guns, they make that fact known and we respect their wishes.

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I'm a Dbl shooter and other then staging the gun vertically on a low stand I see no advantage in closing the gun to restage. Better shooters then I may find a technique. I do see how it will speed up transitions from long gun to another gun when you no longer need to be concerned about your gun closing when placing/throwing it on to a prop.

 

EMN

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Gun jams or malfunctions. Busy work expediter totes it to the ULT. Mr Handy Andy ULTO proceeds to try to carve jammed round out with his bowie knife, leatherman tool, deer antler etc etc whatever.

 

Spare me. I do not enjoy anyone touching my guns much less toting them to the torture table. I will announce to any expediter I encounter, "take a break, I will be toting meowndangguns meowndangself, thankee kindly".

 

Each and everytime.

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Stand by for a verification of what happens if an expeditor handles a long gun that has been restaged in a compromised condition.

 

I'm pretty sure I know what the majority opinion will be...but want to make certain that we're all of one mind so there is no confusion on the issue.

 

 

 

I see that some have already pointed out how the "buddy system" could theoretically be used to CHEAT under the premise that handling the firearm negates any penalties.

The ROC DOES take such ideas under consideration when making a ruling on an issue...same goes for "improper coaching" in a fortuitous manner during a stage.

 

Some folks will try to find a way to win (or help someone else do so) no matter what.

There is a name for them...and it AIN'T "gamer". <_<

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Gun jams or malfunctions. Busy work expediter totes it to the ULT. Mr Handy Andy ULTO proceeds to try to carve jammed round out with his bowie knife, leatherman tool, deer antler etc etc whatever.

 

Spare me. I do not enjoy anyone touching my guns much less toting them to the torture table. I will announce to any expediter I encounter, "take a break, I will be toting meowndangguns meowndangself, thankee kindly".

 

Each and everytime.

I agree, no one can touch your guns in WB, works just fine and doesn't take anymore time. By the time you have picked up the long guns the targets have been reset and most of the brass has been picked up. By the time you make it to the ULT the rest of the brass is done, next shooter. If you need assistance just ask for it, often times I do. Good Luck :)

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

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I agree, no one can touch your guns in WB, works just fine and doesn't take anymore time. By the time you have picked up the long guns the targets have been reset and most of the brass has been picked up. By the time you make it to the ULT the rest of the brass is done, next shooter. If you need assistance just ask for it, often times I do. Good Luck :)

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

On many stages we shoot the targets cannot be reset until guns are up. It does save time and in some cases needed for people that have other issues. Can it go away, sure. But don't tell me it doesn't save time.
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Thanks Allie,

 

It seems to me that under the old rule a rifle with a closed action that had been handled was a no call (with respect to the status of the action) because the handler might have inadvertently closed a partially open action. To me there's a world of difference between default BOD due to a potential inadvertent action and default BOD because some may have intentionally spiked a long gun. The first action is almost certain to occur periodically, is the second a big enough probability to require default BOD in this case?

 

So if we give the shooter a pass we're doing it either because we think there's the potential someone tried to cheat them, or we want to head off a commotion over the fact that their long gun was handled.

 

Or maybe I'm just way way off base, wouldn't be the first time.

CBB,

You're line of thinking is right on.

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I agree, no one can touch your guns in WB, works just fine and doesn't take anymore time. By the time you have picked up the long guns the targets have been reset and most of the brass has been picked up. By the time you make it to the ULT the rest of the brass is done, next shooter. If you need assistance just ask for it, often times I do. Good Luck :)

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

Jefro; On a stand and deliver or a narrow stage expediting doesn't make much different, but when the rifle and pistols are shot inside the structure and then the shooter moves outside to finish with a shotgun, a good expeditor will meet the shooter with his rifle rather than making him come completely back to the far side of the stage and then return all the way back to the UL table. Our range has high movement as do a lot of clubs in the Midwest and we strongly support the expediting.

 

KK

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