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ROC Clarification - Action Closing on Long Gun


Blackjack Zak

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Under rule 3 it states that a loaded/cocked revolver that leaves the shooters hand is a sdq. What if a cocked or half cocked/unloaded revolver is holstered and leaves the shooters hand?

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Under rule 3 it states that a loaded/cocked revolver that leaves the shooters hand is a sdq. What if a cocked or half cocked/unloaded revolver is holstered and leaves the shooters hand?

 

 

 

 

STAGE DISQUALIFICATION

• ...

 

...

• Returning a revolver to leather with hammer not fully down on spent round or empty chamber.

• A cocked revolver leaving the shooter’s hand.

...

 

 

RO1 p.24

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For the revolver leaving the shooter's hand,

 

RO1 page 16:

 

"This does NOT apply when loading or reloading on the firing line"

 

But for returning to the leather, it's applied in full... ;)

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Something to remember.

The rules where changed and you can load more than the required number of rounds for a stage in your rifle.

You are suppose to make sure the rifle is empty before letting go of it by jacking out the extra rounds.

If you don't, then the rifle can become closed and loaded.

 

My opinion.

Two rules that should not have been approved.

Loading more rounds than the stage instructions call for being a "No Call" if removed before leaving shooter hands.

And this one on Closed Actions.

 

Cliff Hanger brought this up yesterday and didn't get much traction. With the lever now allowed to be closed, now the HAMMER is back and the gun is in BATTERY able to be FIRED. This concerns me as an RO being in around or down range of that gun where other could possible /accidentally touch that firearm while the shooter, RO and spotters backs are to them. Prior to this rule change i felt that this sport was very safe, today i don't have those same feelings. Shooting lateral stages the risk is less then down range designed stages, I like down range designed stages.

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Cliff Hanger brought this up yesterday and didn't get much traction. With the lever now allowed to be closed, now the HAMMER is back and the gun is in BATTERY able to be FIRED. This concerns me as an RO being in around or down range of that gun where other could possible /accidentally touch that firearm while the shooter, RO and spotters backs are to them. Prior to this rule change i felt that this sport was very safe, today i don't have those same feelings. Shooting lateral stages the risk is less then down range designed stages, I like down range designed stages.

If you must move in front of ANY gun, it's a poorly designed stage. The 170 applies to ALL guns, staged or otherwise. Why would you do that? Safe muzzle direction is required by all rules of gun safety.

 

CR

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forgive me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember any rule change bringing this much dissention..least one that was actually voted on...

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a story for years past,, rifle was put in a scabbard, it closed, it was pulled out and the trigger was inadvertently pulled firing the gun and missing someone's foot by not that much.

 

I don't like this rule change, but I can live with it, I hope....

 

I also think if someone else messes with the firearm and a round is ejected, it should still count as a penalty! but then what do I know.

 

 

nice that the rule about a cocked gun was finally officially applied to long guns..... that was finally brought up at Gunsmoke in MN, should have apparently been a no-call, officially,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I also think if someone else messes with the firearm and a round is ejected, it should still count as a penalty! but then what do I know.

 

+1............and I DON'T know much

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Cliff Hanger brought this up yesterday and didn't get much traction. With the lever now allowed to be closed, now the HAMMER is back and the gun is in BATTERY able to be FIRED. This concerns me as an RO being in around or down range of that gun where other could possible /accidentally touch that firearm while the shooter, RO and spotters backs are to them. Prior to this rule change i felt that this sport was very safe, today i don't have those same feelings. Shooting lateral stages the risk is less then down range designed stages, I like down range designed stages.

The simplest solution is to restage the rifle pointing into the berm or vertical rack. We tack a board to the prop/table at an angle and instruct the posse to place the rifle along that angle so that the muzzle is pointed in a safe direction.

CBG

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forgive me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember any rule change bringing this much dissention..least one that was actually voted on...

The problem is your right nobody said a darn thing until after it was appoved, who's fault is that? Also 80% of the represented clubs seem to be fine with it.

 

KK

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forgive me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember any rule change bringing this much dissention..least one that was actually voted on...

I recall the Gun Covenants change got a lot more comments after it passed than these changes.

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Just because the TG voted for it doesn't mean EVERY club member was in favor.

 

Yea, you keep hearing that 80% of the clubs wanted it like that means 80% of the shooters . NO . A 51% vote at any club would have got a pass vote . And since all clubs were not represented it is possible that less than half of the shooters were in favor of this passing . That being said I doubt the numbers were that close but if this thread is any indication it was less than 80% of the shooters that wanted it .

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Yea, you keep hearing that 80% of the clubs wanted it like that means 80% of the shooters . NO . A 51% vote at any club would have got a pass vote . And since all clubs were not represented it is possible that less than half of the shooters were in favor of this passing . That being said I doubt the numbers were that close but if this thread is any indication it was less than 80% of the shooters that wanted it .

If your club wasn't represented, then who's fault is that?

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Yea, you keep hearing that 80% of the clubs wanted it like that means 80% of the shooters . NO . A 51% vote at any club would have got a pass vote . And since all clubs were not represented it is possible that less than half of the shooters were in favor of this passing . That being said I doubt the numbers were that close but if this thread is any indication it was less than 80% of the shooters that wanted it .

Then get off you butt and instead of complaining on the wire, get involved do was is required become a TG and voice your clubs opinion.

 

KK

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Yea, you keep hearing that 80% of the clubs wanted it like that means 80% of the shooters . NO . A 51% vote at any club would have got a pass vote . And since all clubs were not represented it is possible that less than half of the shooters were in favor of this passing . That being said I doubt the numbers were that close but if this thread is any indication it was less than 80% of the shooters that wanted it .

No, 80% of the TG's (who are supposed to represent the shooters in their club) who actually took the time to vote voted in favor of the new rule. Clubs not represented are irrelevant in this case as that was their choice. And the wire is a indication of nothing, since the majority of active shooters seldom read the wire much less participate in it. Not trying to sell anything here mind you, as there is nothing to sell. We have a new rule and it will be effective very shortly. Folks can decide whether or not they want to move on and be part of the education process that goes along with any new rule, or continue to debate something that is already settled. By the way Most Wanted always enjoy seeing and shooting with yourself and Two Gun Tuco. You guys are very active shooters and from what I've seen support SASS and CAS in a very positive way. Lively discussion is good and can be beneficial but I fear this subject is very quickly becoming a dead horse. Which is within everyone's right to beat, just not sure if it will benefit anyone. See ya at Winter Range.

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I know I had to go back to my gun a couple of times this year so the rule will save that . I think there was'nt much talk about the rule before the vote because most must have thought it was going to go their way .

 

If your club wasn't represented, then who's fault is that?

My clubs were represented . Who said it was'nt . I was making a statement about the math of the vote and how 80% of clubs (TGs) does not equate to 80% of the shooters . Don't get it twisted . And for anybodys club that was'nt represented I would have to ask them .

 

Then get off you butt and instead of complaining on the wire, get involved do was is required become a TG and voice your clubs opinion.

 

KK

 

I am not now or do I plan to be a life member . We have a very good and involved TG thanks . I pay my money like any one else and I will voice my opinion .You don't like it get off your butt and stop complaining .

 

P.S . KK , I am going to assume that you did vote (but not for Obama) and even though it did'nt go your way you have never discussed the outcome in a less than positive way .

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I know I had to go back to my gun a couple of times this year so the rule will save that . I think there was'nt much talk about the rule before the vote because most must have thought it was going to go their way .

 

My clubs were represented . Who said it was'nt . I was making a statement about the math of the vote and how 80% of clubs (TGs) does not equate to 80% of the shooters . Don't get it twisted . And for anybodys club that was'nt represented I would have to ask them .

 

 

I am not now or do I plan to be a life member . We have a very good and involved TG thanks . I pay my money like any one else and I will voice my opinion .You don't like it get off your butt and stop complaining .

Problem is you seem to voice a lot of negative opinions, with no answers and I wasn't complaining just pointing out a fact. Just like any vote the majority wins, a majority of the TG with approval from their clubs so ok, if a club wasn't represented don't know what to tell you, except get a new TG. I didn't go but took the time to make sure I sent a proxy, took a whole 5 minutes via the interenet.

 

KK

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Just because the TG voted for it doesn't mean EVERY club member was in favor.

Just because our President got about 70,000 million votes in his first election and won the electoral vote does not mean every citizen in the US was in favor.

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I can't believe the bickering over something so simple. EVERY single thing that has been mentioned in the parade of horribles about the new rule CAN and DID happen under the old one. Nothing has changed safety wise. People have laid cocked empty guns down in the past and will do so in the future. Whenever people are involved in anything there will be mistakes. There was no requirement under the old rule to open the lever. It was the shooter's choice to take the penalty if the lever closed. If the next gun had already been cocked a penalty was already assessed and no one went back and opened the lever after firing the next gun. In most cases the lever closed and no one noticed until the stage was over. We have a match this weekend and I guarantee you that no one is going to have a problem figuring this out. It ain't rocket science.

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I can't believe the bickering over something so simple. EVERY single thing that has been mentioned in the parade of horribles about the new rule CAN and DID happen under the old one. Nothing has changed safety wise. People have laid cocked empty guns down in the past and will do so in the future. Whenever people are involved in anything there will be mistakes. There was no requirement under the old rule to open the lever. It was the shooter's choice to take the penalty if the lever closed. If the next gun had already been cocked a penalty was already assessed and no one went back and opened the lever after firing the next gun. In most cases the lever closed and no one noticed until the stage was over. We have a match this weekend and I guarantee you that no one is going to have a problem figuring this out. It ain't rocket science.

Yes! +1

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I can't believe the bickering over something so simple. EVERY single thing that has been mentioned in the parade of horribles about the new rule CAN and DID happen under the old one. Nothing has changed safety wise. People have laid cocked empty guns down in the past and will do so in the future. Whenever people are involved in anything there will be mistakes. There was no requirement under the old rule to open the lever. It was the shooter's choice to take the penalty if the lever closed. If the next gun had already been cocked a penalty was already assessed and no one went back and opened the lever after firing the next gun. In most cases the lever closed and no one noticed until the stage was over. We have a match this weekend and I guarantee you that no one is going to have a problem figuring this out. It ain't rocket science.

Agree 100%, except now shooter does not get the 10 second penalty if the gun is empty. That is the only change.

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I can't believe the bickering over something so simple. EVERY single thing that has been mentioned in the parade of horribles about the new rule CAN and DID happen under the old one. Nothing has changed safety wise. People have laid cocked empty guns down in the past and will do so in the future. Whenever people are involved in anything there will be mistakes. There was no requirement under the old rule to open the lever. It was the shooter's choice to take the penalty if the lever closed. If the next gun had already been cocked fired or the gun is set down at the ULT a penalty was already assessed and no one went back and opened the lever after firing the next gun. In most cases the lever closed and no one noticed until the stage was over. We have a match this weekend and I guarantee you that no one is going to have a problem figuring this out. It ain't rocket science.

:)

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Should someone other than the competitor open the action of the gun, any penalties that would have been incurred will still apply.


Any other handling of a firearm by someone other than the competitor does NOT negate any penalties (e.g. moving it from the stage to the unloading area).

 

 

please post any comments re: this on the OTHER THREAD.

 

thnx,

PWB

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Lot's of things mentioned about the vote makes me wonder about proceedures.

1. Are TG's bound to vote the clubs vote? If so why is there any disscussion at the meeting?

2. Many cowboys have muiltiple clubs listed on their tag lines. Does mean they get mulitiple votes?

3. How do items reach the voting stage ?

4. Is there a complete vote published ?

Since this seems to work like the Electorial College, maybe it is time for a popular vote.

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Lot's of things mentioned about the vote makes me wonder about proceedures.

1. Are TG's bound to vote the clubs vote? If so why is there any disscussion at the meeting?

Some items are amended after discussion. TG's should be aware of possible options & vote according to their club members' wishes (which, IMO, should also be known)

2. Many cowboys have muiltiple clubs listed on their tag lines. Does mean they get mulitiple votes?

Yes...but each club only gets ONE vote (regardless of the number of members).

3. How do items reach the voting stage ?

A number of various ways...after discussion at Regional/State TG meetings; review by the ROC; submission of FMC's or other individual requests sent to the WB/ROC for consideration; discovery of overlooked items or errors; & sometimes we just pull "stuff" out of a hat.

4. Is there a complete vote published ?

No...just the results of the ballot count.

Since this seems to work like the Electorial College, maybe it is time for a popular vote.

Maybe not.

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As a member of many clubs.

 

I make sure each TG at each club. Knows how I feel they should vote.

But that does not always mean I get my way. The club as a whole may

want to vote differently than I do.

 

And if that TG is NOT voting the way the club wants. Club should look for a new one.

 

 

Think there are a lot of clubs that need a new one. As TO MANY did not send a vote at all.

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I find it interesting that some would claim that the current TG/voting system is broken simply because they disagree with certain results. The wire is NOT cowboy shooting and not a accurate rating system for the general memberships view.

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What's the difference in a cocked revolver and a cocked rifle ?

 

In what context?

 

As far as SASS rules are concerned:

The hammer of a revolver can only be dropped via two methods

1) Decocking (carefully lowering the hammer down)

or

2) Firing/dry firing (pulling the trigger & letting the hammer "free fall")

 

A rifle can be "made safe" by doing either of those actions OR

3) Opening the action.

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You can walk away from a cocked long gun but can't take you hand off a cocked pistol. Not arguing just answering PWB question

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