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ROC Clarification - Action Closing on Long Gun


Blackjack Zak

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Hello the Camp!
Well folks, as promised, I have the ROC's clarifications for you below.
I must take a moment to tell you all that we strongly urge you all to pass the word along to your club membership, and to those TGs and RO Instructors who were not at the TG meeting, and to those who do not keep up on changes in the rules. It is essential that we all take on the responsibility to educate and inform our shooting pards of the following information.
The following is essentially what was passed and is NOW in effect:
"If the action of a long gun closes after being opened and emptied (at the end of the string), it will be a NO CALL if in fact, the firearm is empty. If a spent case or live round is ejected, a penalty will apply. The shooter will be the only person allowed to handle the firearm, and the firearm should be left for the shooter to open at the end of the stage."
So this is what we have, as an example:
Shooter shoots the rifle/shotgun, then opens and empties it at the end of the string. After doing so the shooter places the long gun down, and for whatever reason, the action closes. In our view, three possibilities exist:
1. Shooter, at the end of the STAGE, the shooter returns to the long gun and opens it.
If nothing is ejected = NO CALL
2. Shooter, at the end of the STAGE, the shooter returns to the long gun and opens it.
IF an empty casing is ejected = MSV (Minor Safety)
Clarification: If shooter returns to open & clear the action of a long gun before firing the next gun on the stage = NO CALL (same as current rule...exception is #3 below): In other words nothing stops the shooter from returning before being committed to the next firearm to open the action, if they wish, as per the current rule.
3. Shooter, at the end of the STAGE, returns to the long gun and opens it.
IF a live/unfired round is ejected = Stage DQ for a long gun having left the shooters hand, with
the action closed, hammer cocked with a live round in the chamber.
In this case there is no opportunity to return to open it if called back before being committed to the
next firearm - penalty applies the moment it left the shooter's hand.
NOTE: This is the same penalty for a cocked/loaded revolver leaving the shooter's hand, and will be added to the SDQ section of the "Penalty Overview" in the RO1. (This has been an oversight until now).
One of the biggest issues that needs to be understood by ALL SHOOTERs is that if a long gun action inadvertently closes after being opened and emptied, THE SHOOTER is the ONLY PERSON who may touch the firearm.
To all CROs/TOs:
It is imperative that CROs/TOs supervise and control the situation appropriately. The CRO/TO must ensure that the long gun remains untouched until the shooter, and only the shooter, returns to open it, and also under the supervision of the CRO/TO, to determine the penalty, if any.
There will be questions I am sure. We shall do our best to answer them.......
Cheers,
BJZ

 

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OK, so far I understand it, but what if I'm shooting and set my rifle down open and empty and it closes and am 5 steps away and the TO stops me and says "OPEN" and insists I go back and reopen it. Do I get a reshoot for interference?

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OK, so far I understand it, but what if I'm shooting and set my rifle down open and empty and it closes and am 5 steps away and the TO stops me and says "OPEN" and insists I go back and reopen it. Do I get a reshoot for interference?

IMO, yes. The CRO of each territory should instruct the ROinstructors and the RO instructors should instruct the RO's. The TG's should instruct all members of their respective clubs and all SASS RO's should take refresher courses to keep up on the instructions and rule claification/changes.

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OK, so far I understand it, but what if I'm shooting and set my rifle down open and empty and it closes and am 5 steps away and the TO stops me and says "OPEN" and insists I go back and reopen it. Do I get a reshoot for interference?

 

Hey Boulder,

 

If the CRO/TO insists you come back to open it, yes you would be entitled to a re-shoot. Provided you have opened it and emptied it already, and the lever subsequently closes, you are NOT required to return to open the lever/action.

 

Having said that, if the CRO/TO simply advises you that it is closed, that would not be grounds for a re-shoot.......as he/she is only doing their job. Also, if they say nothing, that is also acceptable - both cases would (proper coaching or no coaching at all) not be grounds for the re-shoot.

 

The CRO/TO should assist the shooter, and prevent clear and known safety issues from happening. In the case of the action being closed, if the CRO/TO is certain that all rounds have been fired and cleared, it would be best to say nothing and allow the shooter move on. Should the shooter have only fired 9 rounds on a 10 round string, the CRO/TO should advise the shooter that they only fired 9 rounds.

 

If the CRO/TO is not sure, they should say nothing and let the shooter move on......as after all......it is the SHOOTER's responsibility to complete the stage. The CRO/TO's job would then be to ensure that nobody touches the long gun, and supervise the shooter as they open the action, watching for a live round, empty casing or nothing to come out.

 

If the CRO/TO can clearly see that there is an empty casing or live round on the carrier (action open), they should let the shooter know (safely assist).

 

Flying W Ramrod is correct.......we need to educate EVERYONE.

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I understand that this includes all longguns.If a dbl barrel closes on a person , is it concidered a no call also.Or do they need to open it befor moving to the next position... Largo

 

The rule change is in regard to staging ANY long gun at the end of the shooting string.

 

Movement with an action-closed SxS is covered under different rules.

REF: RO1 p.17

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Isn't a dbl concidered a longgun.I thought the wording was changed to include all longguns not just rifles..Largo

 

Sorry for the misunderstanding on my part :blush:

...I read your question as moving to the next position with the shotgun.

 

YES...SxS's are covered under the rule change.

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So then does that mean we can no longer have an expediter to help things move faster?

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So then does that mean we can no longer have an expediter to help things move faster?

No it does not, what it means is when a expediter goes to get the rifle and the lever is closed he does not touch it the shooter does.

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If, despite the best efforts of the TO, someone other than the shooter handles a long gun and a casing or live round comes out subsequently what's the call?

It has been in the past that if somebody other than the shooter moved a rifle that was found to have and empty round on the carrier without calling the TO over to see the infraction it was a no call, I would ASSUME the same for live round on carrier.

 

KK

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No it does not, what it means is when a expediter goes to get the rifle and the lever is closed he does not touch it the shooter does.

Simple answer that should suffice -

 

BUT:

 

Education is the key, shouldn't be too hard - "Don't move a long gun with the action closed" Safety rules are redundant for a reason. If you're worried about someone moving a gun in spite of the instructions, it will be always pointed in a safe direction, no? Finger off the trigger? Treated as loaded?

 

CR

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Hey Boulder,

 

If the CRO/TO insists you come back to open it, yes you would be entitled to a re-shoot. Provided you have opened it and emptied it already, and the lever subsequently closes, you are NOT required to return to open the lever/action.

 

Having said that, if the CRO/TO simply advises you that it is closed, that would not be grounds for a re-shoot.......as he/she is only doing their job. Also, if they say nothing, that is also acceptable - both cases would (proper coaching or no coaching at all) not be grounds for the re-shoot.

 

The CRO/TO should assist the shooter, and prevent clear and known safety issues from happening. In the case of the action being closed, if the CRO/TO is certain that all rounds have been fired and cleared, it would be best to say nothing and allow the shooter move on. Should the shooter have only fired 9 rounds on a 10 round string, the CRO/TO should advise the shooter that they only fired 9 rounds.

 

If the CRO/TO is not sure, they should say nothing and let the shooter move on......as after all......it is the SHOOTER's responsibility to complete the stage. The CRO/TO's job would then be to ensure that nobody touches the long gun, and supervise the shooter as they open the action, watching for a live round, empty casing or nothing to come out.

 

If the CRO/TO can clearly see that there is an empty casing or live round on the carrier (action open), they should let the shooter know (safely assist).

 

Flying W Ramrod is correct.......we need to educate EVERYONE.

 

I don't mean to sound disrespectful here but a lot of the long time RO instructors havn't updated their rule books since they took the class. Personally I just don't see a need

for this change.

If, despite the best efforts of the TO, someone other than the shooter handles a long gun and a casing or live round comes out subsequently what's the call?

 

Good question. You can educate all you want but you know this is going to be a frequent problem.

 

So then does that mean we can no longer have an expediter to help things move faster?

 

I would say no IF the lever is open. If it's closed then you can't touch it.

 

I'm just forseeing a lot of issues with this one, but I've always been a pessimist. Hopefully everthing will be fine (how's that for optimism? :P )

 

JEL

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I like it. Thanks for good clarification BJZ.......and for all your work, and that of Duece and the rest of the ROC.

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I don't mean to sound disrespectful here but a lot of the long time RO instructors havn't updated their rule books since they took the class.

 

Exactly WHERE did you get THAT idea regarding RO Instructors?

FYI - They are required to TEACH classes annually, as well as attend/teach refresher courses to maintain Instructor (black PIN) status.

If ANY Instructors are teaching classes using outdated course materials, the Regional CRO and/or the ROC should be advised.

 

 

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I see no issues with this rule at all, seems very clear and easy to understand, thanks to all who helped with this!!

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I see no issues with this rule at all, seems very clear and easy to understand, thanks to all who helped with this!!

Yeah - that's what I've been trying to say

 

CR

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I see no issues with this rule at all, seems very clear and easy to understand, thanks to all who helped with this!!

 

And a solution to WHAT problem???

 

Exactly WHERE did you get THAT idea regarding RO Instructors?

FYI - They are required to TEACH classes annually, as well as attend/teach refresher courses to maintain Instructor (black PIN) status.

If ANY Instructors are teaching classes using outdated course materials, the Regional CRO and/or the ROC should be advised.

 

PM sent

 

JEL

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The new closed lever rule solves a long standing issue of determining if a lever is open or closed. In the past folks were all over the map. Some said if it was open the slightest amount it was open. Others said it was open only if the bolt was open far enough to see in the chamber, others demanded the lever be open the max or it was closed, etc. That problem just went away with this new rule. For those saying their club will not use the rule, I hope they are prepared to notify visitors to their club of the fact they do not follow SASS rules and state clearly how they define an open or closed lever in a manner an RO can judge it in a fraction of a second.

 

A few years ago we had several clubs that bragged that they had many unique rules. The good news is that folks tended to shy away from clubs not following SASS rules. Since then the number of clubs that follow all SASS rules has gone up dramatically. This is not rocket science folks.

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Guest Cinch, SASS#29433

 

And a solution to WHAT problem???

 

 

JEL

Let's say the rifle rounds are properly expended and the rifle is re-staged vertically so movement down range can happen. When the rifle hits the walkway the lever closes, or if the shotgun is re-staged vertically a double that is cleared can be swung down and if it closes (making it better for leaning in the rack) it can now just remain that way without penalty.

 

I am hoping this brings more vertical re-staging and more down range stuff as I get tired of L-R along the firing line. I know double gun shooters who hated both staging and re-staging their broke open guns vertically. Now they can at least re-stage a lot more safely and if the rifle closes going into the buckboard then it isn't a "get back over here" moment.

 

On your average stage all the guns are pointed down range and in the event of a live round (which can happen before or after the rule) left in the gun it is pointed the right direction and no one is down range of the firing line their is no problem. This really is an "ease up" on something that doesn't happen on every shooter.

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The new closed lever rule solves a long standing issue of determining if a lever is open or closed. In the past folks were all over the map. Some said if it was open the slightest amount it was open. Others said it was open only if the bolt was open far enough to see in the chamber, others demanded the lever be open the max or it was closed, etc. That problem just went away with this new rule. For those saying their club will not use the rule, I hope they are prepared to notify visitors to their club of the fact they do not follow SASS rules and state clearly how they define an open or closed lever in a manner an RO can judge it in a fraction of a second.

 

A few years ago we had several clubs that bragged that they had many unique rules. The good news is that folks tended to shy away from clubs not following SASS rules. Since then the number of clubs that follow all SASS rules has gone up dramatically. This is not rocket science folks.

 

 

Let's say the rifle rounds are properly expended and the rifle is re-staged vertically so movement down range can happen. When the rifle hits the walkway the lever closes, or if the shotgun is re-staged vertically a double that is cleared can be swung down and if it closes (making it better for leaning in the rack) it can now just remain that way without penalty.

 

I am hoping this brings more vertical re-staging and more down range stuff as I get tired of L-R along the firing line. I know double gun shooters who hated both staging and re-staging their broke open guns vertically. Now they can at least re-stage a lot more safely and if the rifle closes going into the buckboard then it isn't a "get back over here" moment.

 

On your average stage all the guns are pointed down range and in the event of a live round (which can happen before or after the rule) left in the gun it is pointed the right direction and no one is down range of the firing line their is no problem. This really is an "ease up" on something that doesn't happen on every shooter.

 

 

Ok I conceed. these are both very good points.

 

GCK: That has always been an issue that this new change solves.

 

Cinch: That would make stageing the double a lot easier for this type of prop.

 

thanks for pointing these out.

 

JEL

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I would suggest changing the word "should" to "will" in the last sentence.

 

"The shooter will be the only person allowed to handle the firearm and the firearm WILL be left for the shooter to open at the end of the stage"

 

(Sorry, couldn't get the quote feature to work)

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Cinch, SASS#29433 Today, 01:09 PM

 

John E. Law, on 10 Dec 2013 - 12:34, said:

 

And a solution to WHAT problem???

 

JEL

 

Let's say the rifle rounds are properly expended and the rifle is re-staged vertically so movement down range can happen. When the rifle hits the walkway the lever closes, or if the shotgun is re-staged vertically a double that is cleared can be swung down and if it closes (making it better for leaning in the rack) it can now just remain that way without penalty.

 

 

So are you saying in your opinion its ok for a Dbl shooter to close his gun after emptying it to make it easier to stage vertically? My understanding was that the rule change was more because of prop issues.

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I think a good point has been brought up, so everyone understands. Most double shooters believe 97 shooters have an advantage on vertically staged guns. I would like an RO Committee person to comment on whether a double shooter can restage his shotgun following shooting it, after he clears it, by closing it (either on purpose or accidently) and putting it into a vertical prop. That raises another question, can a double shooter close his gun as he puts it into a vertical prop after showing clear before the stage starts? An RO Committee member might comment on that situation also. I know these examples might be a stretch but just wondering. Just wondering if an RO clarification is needed here.

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From post #9

 

Sorry for the misunderstanding on my part :blush:

...I read your question as moving to the next position with the shotgun.

 

YES...SxS's are covered under the rule change.




{C}

PaleWolf Brunelle

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I don't believe this rule was passed so shooters could intentionally close their actions, only if they accidentally close while being restaged. Perhaps BJZ could tell us about the ROC discussion on intentionally closing ones action in order to gain tiime on a scenario. Would that equate to a SOG penalty?

 

Assassin

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IMO, yes. The CRO of each territory should instruct the ROinstructors and the RO instructors should instruct the RO's. The TG's should instruct all members of their respective clubs and all SASS RO's should take refresher courses to keep up on the instructions and rule claification/changes.

yupp

informed / updated shooters as well

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I think a good point has been brought up, so everyone understands. Most double shooters believe 97 shooters have an advantage on vertically staged guns. I would like an RO Committee person to comment on whether a double shooter can restage his shotgun following shooting it, after he clears it, by closing it (either on purpose or accidently) and putting it into a vertical prop.

That raises another question, can a double shooter close his gun as he puts it into a vertical prop after showing clear before the stage starts?

NO.

An RO Committee member might comment on that situation also. I know these examples might be a stretch but just wondering. Just wondering if an RO clarification is needed here.

 

The rule change has NOTHING to do with initial staging of long guns.

It only effects long guns that have been shot "dry", actions opened and all rounds removed BEFORE RESTAGING.

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The rule change has NOTHING to do with initial staging of long guns.

It only effects long guns that have been shot "dry", actions opened and all rounds removed BEFORE RESTAGING.

Thanks, that is what I expected, Since there was no comment on on the first scenario, I would assume a double shooter could close his double after his last shotgun shot to stage it on a vertical prop?? True or false?

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Thanks, that is what I expected, Since there was no comment on on the first scenario,

I would assume a double shooter could close his double after his last shotgun shot to stage it on a vertical prop?? True or false?

 

Applying the rule "as written" that would be a true statement...but it had better be EMPTY to avoid any penalties.

 

NOTE! This is NOT the same as firing the last shot; then simply "throwing/dropping" a long gun down on (or against) the restaging point!

The last fired rounds MUST BE CLEARED (by opening the ACTION) before "discarding" a long gun (no matter what type).

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Guest Cinch, SASS#29433

Thanks Palewolf!!

 

I didn't mean imply that actions shouldn't be open and empty, just that as written it could be a boon for RE-staging doubles vertically.

 

Otherwise it's protection from inadvertent closure while re-staging on various props

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Thanks Palewolf!!

 

I didn't mean imply that actions shouldn't be open and empty, just that as written it could be a boon for RE-staging doubles vertically.

 

Otherwise it's protection from inadvertent closure while re-staging on various props

 

...and THAT's the primary consideration...IMO.

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