6 Shotgun knock downs split 3 and 3?

[Lead Ringer]

Was recently talkin' with a cowboy who had just attended a State SASS Match. He enjoyed everything about the match, except how they had split the shotgun knock downs in groups of 3's on two stages. (must be engaged in the groups of 3's)

 

Question to the fire: Is it a disadvantage to the SxS shooter? Does the 97 shooter get the advantage from this stage design?

I've attended plenty of State and Regional matches in different parts of the country. Been to Winter Range three times and EOT twice. I have never seen this at any of those matches in the last four years.

 

I also reviewed the stage design PDF on the SASS home page, It doesn't mention it. Although it seems a little out of date?

 

Doesn't seem to be a level playing field to me.

 

(simple solution would be to split up in three groups of two's or a group of four and two)

 

Ringer

 

 

 

[Texas Jim Henry, SASS #20616]

Big advantage to the 97 shooter, IMHO. I'd be unhappy about one stage set up like that. Two? I think I'd be having a (polite) word with the match director.

 

Regards, TJH

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

LR,

Wasn't the EOT SG side that way this year? OF course side is different than main match, but still your point is correct....adv to 97.

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

Just attended a State Match set up that way..

My first thought.. Wow... '97 shooters have an advantage...

 

My second thought.. "Can SxS shooters dump live rounds?" answer "Yes"

 

I went on.. loaded 2.. shot 2.. loaded 2 shot 1..dumped live round...

Did the same thing on the second set.....

 

I didn't want to think any longer of any advantage to 97 shooters...

Just would'a messed with my ol' brain... and I sure don't need that

 

Rance

Thinkin'... take it and go on...

next stage

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Wouldn't a SxS shooter have to load twice (2x2) for each set of 3 targets anyway? (i.e. load 4 rounds for 3 targets)

Most of us using doubles load in pairs, rather than singles (as most '97 shooters do)

A '97 single-loader would have to load 3x...I still fail to see this as a big advantage.

 

Other option is load/shoot 2; load 2 shoot 1; open...move/close shoot one, load/shoot 2.

Either way, the '97 starts out with the advantage of an EJECTOR and use of the hand(s) as a "magazine".

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

BB, speed shotgun for SxSs was on bay 12 while '97s and '87s shot on bay 14.

 

Regarding the original question - yes, clearly favors '97s if movement between the two sets of three targets is required.

[Madd Mike #8595]

one or two stages like that for variety is fine

a whole match

knot sew fine

[Lead Ringer]

BB, speed shotgun for SxSs was on bay 12 while '97s and '87s shot on bay 14.

 

Regarding the original question - yes, clearly favors '97s if movement between the two sets of three targets is required.

That's right. I helped on the SxS side match at EOT. It was six in a row and for SxS only as a timed event.

Ringer

[Straight Arrow Hombre]

 

 

 

Other option is load/shoot 2; load 2 shoot 1; open...move/close shoot one, load/shoot 2.

Either way, the '97 starts out with the advantage of an EJECTOR and use of the hand(s) as a "magazine".

 

Works ok with a two trigger gun, not so much with a single trigger inertia gun.

[McKenzie River Drifter, #74138]

PWB The load 2 shoot 2, load 2-shoot 1, open and move only works with a mechanical trigger SXS. With inerta triggers, it would be on the wrong barrel after closing. Some disadvantage for some SXS shooters.

 

McKenzie

[Straight Arrow Hombre]

Was recently talkin' with a cowboy who had just attended a State SASS Match. He enjoyed everything about the match, except how they had split the shotgun knock downs in groups of 3's on two stages. (must be engaged in the groups of 3's)

 

Question to the fire: Is it a disadvantage to the SxS shooter? Does the 97 shooter get the advantage from this stage design?

I've attended plenty of State and Regional matches in different parts of the country. Been to Winter Range three times and EOT twice. I have never seen this at any of those matches in the last four years.

 

I also reviewed the stage design PDF on the SASS home page, It doesn't mention it. Although it seems a little out of date?

 

Doesn't seem to be a level playing field to me.

 

(simple solution would be to split up in three groups of two's or a group of four and two)

 

Ringer

 

 

 

Definately benefits a 97 shooter. Most people can manage three shells in one grab, so a 97 shooter has to go to his belt twice while a double shooter goes to their belt four times.

[Scrub Oak Willie 53737]

Think I was a the same match , they also had stages with two knock downs advantage SxS ????

 

Willie

[Knot Hardly Dunn, SASS 43113]

Saw the same a year ago at a state match and recently a group of 5 targets. IMHO an advantage to the 97 shooter.

[Lead Ringer]

one or two stages like that for variety is fine

a whole match

knot sew fine

The shooter I talked with just thought it wasn't a good design for a state match. I agreed with him. Go for it at the regular weekend shoot if they want.

Ringer

[Ace_of_Hearts]

Shoot the stage as written and stop the sniveling.........

 

If you don't like the perceived advantage/disadvantage, either practice more or get yourself a 97 or shoot in a category that REQUIRES the use of a double. Besides, bad guys didn't always align themselves in even numbers.

Of course, I am the kind of guy who thinks 97 shooters ought to be able to load more than two. If the darn thing will hold five and you want to stuff them in there on the clock, then go ahead. (Just for the record, I shoot a double)

 

Marlins have advantage on rifle reloads..... Maybe we should do more multi-shot reloads on the rifle.

 

Maybe we should write stages with 9 rifle shots because it is unfair to 9 shot 92 shooters to have to reload one each time we have a 10 shot stage.

 

For pistol reloads of 5 shots, get a Scofield.

 

I am done be sarcastic now. (For the moment)

[Straight Arrow Hombre]

Shoot the stage as written and stop the sniveling.........

 

I listened close but didn't hear any sniveling......just an honest question. Discussion AFTER the match is appropriate.

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

That stage design will give '97 shooters about a 2 second advantage over SxS shooters. I'd be willing to bet the stage writer shoots a '97, but I was wrong once before...

[Goody, SASS #26190]

I fail to see the problem. Load two, Shoot two, load two, shoot one, dump one on way to next position load two, close gun, shoot two, load two more, finish the stage.

[Cheatin' Chamberlin]

When I first starting writing stages. I wrote a stage with the shotgun much like the one we are taking about. Man did I hear it from the SXS shooters. I myself being a SXS shooter did not relize that it was that big of a advantage. Needless to say I have not wrote a shotgun stage like it since. Keeping the peace. There is alot to think about when writing stages. From gunfighters to people with disabilities. Even taking in consideration for peoples height. To be able to see the target. Also a left handed shooter or right handed shooter.

 

Cheatin'

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

I believe that the fastest on the stage was a 97 shooter: 20.37

Second was a double shooter: 21.22

Third was a double shooter: 22.92

I don't know what the 4th guy shot it with in a 23.83

Fifth was a 97 in 24.12

six was a double 24.14

 

It was different. Not overly dificult, but different.

 

I remember a coach of mine who once said that so many times, people defeat themselves even before taking the field because of their own perceived inadequacies.

 

Buy the time they are ready to compete, they have already defeated themselves in their mind.

 

It was definately not the attitude displayed by David when he took on the mighty Goliath.

 

 

Me, I loaded two, shot two. Loaded 2, shot one, opened moved, pulled the (mechanical) trigger twice. Loaded two, shot 2.

 

 

 

PS...He don't need defending, but the stage writer shoots a double.

[Mack Hacker, #60477]

I believe that the fastest on the stage was a 97 shooter: 20.37

Second was a double shooter: 21.22

Third was a double shooter: 22.92

I don't know what the 4th guy shot it with in a 23.83

Fifth was a 97 in 24.12

 

It was different. Not overly dificult, but different.

 

I remember a coach of mine who once said that so many times, people defeat themselves even before taking the field because of their own perceived inadequacies.

 

Buy the time they are ready to compete, they have already defeated themselves in their mind.

 

It was definately not the attitude displayed by David when he took on the mighty Goliath.

 

 

Me, I loaded two, shot two. Loaded 2, shot one, opened moved, pulled the (mechanical) trigger twice. Loaded two, shot 2.

 

 

 

PS...He don't need defending, but the stage writer shoots a double.

If I recall the scripture correctly, even David loaded 5 for one target.

[Kid Ziggy SASS 76870]

Jack ... you are a tad biased (hahaha) being among the hard working staff at this match. I am a double shooter and did not mind the shotgun sequence on this stage. I did think, as a gunfighter & a double shooter, that it would have been nice not to have to move with pistols in addition to the shotgun. All that being said, I thought it was an interesting stage. I do prefer an even number of shotgun targets, but have no problem with a couple stages that are different.

[Grizzly Dave]

Seen it, shot it, and think it does favor the 97 shooter somewhat. Especially those who pull four, they would only have to go to the belt twice. But that would hold true for 6 targets all in a row as well.

 

One stage in a match with 6 is variety, two is borderline, three is way too many in my opinion.

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

When I first starting writing stages. I wrote a stage with the shotgun much like the one we are taking about. Man did I hear it from the SXS shooters. I myself being a SXS shooter did not relize that it was that big of a advantage. Needless to say I have not wrote a shotgun stage like it since. Keeping the peace. There is alot to think about when writing stages. From gunfighters to people with disabilities. Even taking in consideration for peoples height. To be able to see the target. Also a left handed shooter or right handed shooter.

 

Cheatin'

"There is a lot to think about when writing stages. From gunfighters to people with disabilities. Even taking in consideration for peoples height. To be able to see the target. Also a left handed shooter or right handed shooter." AMEN!

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

That's right. I helped on the SxS side match at EOT. It was six in a row and for SxS only as a timed event.

Ringer

Actually, believe you might have been running timer when I was there. And when Duece ran it under five.

bb

[Two Gun Tuco]

The problem is that 97 shooters will load 6 and shoot six while double shooters have to load eight to shoot six. Shucking and loading on a double is slower than on a pump but they make the time back up with being able to shoot two without anything in between. Anything that takes out the two consecutive shots kills a double shooter.

[Lead Ringer]

Shoot the stage as written and stop the sniveling.........

 

If you don't like the perceived advantage/disadvantage, either practice more or get yourself a 97 or shoot in a category that REQUIRES the use of a double. Besides, bad guys didn't always align themselves in even numbers.

Of course, I am the kind of guy who thinks 97 shooters ought to be able to load more than two. If the darn thing will hold five and you want to stuff them in there on the clock, then go ahead. (Just for the record, I shoot a double)

 

Marlins have advantage on rifle reloads..... Maybe we should do more multi-shot reloads on the rifle.

 

Maybe we should write stages with 9 rifle shots because it is unfair to 9 shot 92 shooters to have to reload one each time we have a 10 shot stage.

 

For pistol reloads of 5 shots, get a Scofield.

 

I am done be sarcastic now. (For the moment)

 

No sniveling here.

I think its a positive discussion and an opportunity for people to learn.

Also, I'm sure all match directors and stage writers want their customer to walk away from a match thinking the stages were great.

Ringer

[Gawd Awful]

I believe that the fastest on the stage was a 97 shooter: 20.37

Second was a double shooter: 21.22

Third was a double shooter: 22.92

I don't know what the 4th guy shot it with in a 23.83

Fifth was a 97 in 24.12

six was a double 24.14

 

 

Looking at this, at least 3, possibly 4 of the top 6 shooters shot a double.

 

Seams to me that any "advantage" goes to the people who PRACTICE. as far as what shotgun has the advantage, the top six shooters either the double shooters had the advantage, or it was an even split between the 2. The DISADVANTAGE goes to the shooter who went into the stage feeling like they had the disadvantage.

[Cheatin' Chamberlin]

No sniveling here.

I think its a positive discussion and an opportunity for people to learn.

Also, I'm sure all match directors and stage writers want their customer to walk away from a match thinking the stages were great.

Ringer

+1 That is the ulimate goal! Make sure the customer is happy!

 

Cheatin'

[Doc Silverfinger, SASS#3444]

.....doesn't seem overly difficult to me, but the '97 would have a small advantage here - why not follow up with a stage that is more friendly to sxs's??? JMHO Doc

[Red River Ray SASS#33254]

Adv to 97 without a doubt. It takes a good SXS shooter only .18 sec longer to shoot 4 than it does ta shoot 3.

 

Now moving wid SG in hand to another position say after firing rifle to shoot 2 KD's gives tha Adv to SXS.

 

Shoot 2, move shoot 2, move shoot 2, gives Adv to SXS as gun is loaded when foot it planted at next station. It takes less than .4 sec to shoot 2 an be gone empting on tha move.

 

I had as soon shoot 3 as I had shoot 2 with them spread apart 15 ft. as you lose the speed between barrels or between shots.

 

 

RRR

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

Was recently talkin' with a cowboy who had just attended a State SASS Match. He enjoyed everything about the match, except how they had split the shotgun knock downs in groups of 3's on two stages. (must be engaged in the groups of 3's)

 

 

Big advantage to the 97 shooter, IMHO. I'd be unhappy about one stage set up like that. Two? I think I'd be having a (polite) word with the match director.

 

Regards, TJH

 

 

Full disclosure...Only one of the stages required you to shoot three, then move. The other stage that had 6 targets did not specify where the 6 targets were to be engaged from. There were all kinds of different ways you could have shot it. Two, then move 4. Two, move 2, move 2 and transition. You could have even shot all 6 standing in one spot. It was just that the targets were placed putting three over here and three over there.

 

There were also 2 stages with only 2 SG targets.

[Boothill Bandit, SASS# 48598]

I'll take a 3 X 3 split with a double any day. With a double, that gives me a free "Hail Mary" shot if I screw up and miss the third target. I can always dump the live round if I don't miss (because I'm gonna dump the fired one anyway) and reload on the way over to position "X" for 4, 5, and 6. The same thing would apply for number 6. I'm ALWAYS going to load two so I will again have another Hail Mary" for number 6 if I need it.

 

Boothill

[Clueless Bob]

Another thought is an advantage to the SxS if a miss occurs. SxS will already be loaded where the 97 has to cycle and load.

To me, 6 of one and half dozen another.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

...

Works ok with a two trigger gun, not so much with a single trigger inertia gun.

 

 

PWB The load 2 shoot 2, load 2-shoot 1, open and move only works with a mechanical trigger SXS. With inerta triggers, it would be on the wrong barrel after closing. Some disadvantage for some SXS shooters.

 

McKenzie

 

Wasn't even thinkin' about the single-trigger SxS's...all of mine (Remington, Rossi's & TTN's) have dual hammers & triggers.