Lead Ringer Posted October 23, 2013 Author Share Posted October 23, 2013 I'll take a 3 X 3 split with a double any day. With a double, that gives me a free "Hail Mary" shot if I screw up and miss the third target. I can always dump the live round if I don't miss (because I'm gonna dump the fired one anyway) and reload on the way over to position "X" for 4, 5, and 6. The same thing would apply for number 6. I'm ALWAYS going to load two so I will again have another Hail Mary" for number 6 if I need it. Boothill That's a good point Boothill. Ringer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackwater 53393 Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 I might add here, that the feller who wrote the stages that Branchwater speaks of shoots a hammered double. I shot this match with a pump gun shooting Outlaw. I went back and shot the shotgun part of the split stage with my 10ga. double a few days later, also Outlaw. Load/shoot two, load/shoot one, open and step, close/shoot one, load/shoot two. Seemed about the same to me. The match was fun and relatively easy to shoot. I didn't shoot it all that well, but that was me shooting Outlaw!! I'll try those stages again in a normal smokeless category over the next couple of months. Two stages with only two shotgun targets. Unfait to '97 shooters?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 I'll take a 3 X 3 split with a double any day. With a double, that gives me a free "Hail Mary" shot if I screw up and miss the third target. I can always dump the live round if I don't miss (because I'm gonna dump the fired one anyway) and reload on the way over to position "X" for 4, 5, and 6. The same thing would apply for number 6. I'm ALWAYS going to load two so I will again have another Hail Mary" for number 6 if I need it. Boothill A plan to fail and miss is never a good thing. I don't go into it thinking I will miss. If you do. You will. Advantage to the 97 shooter that pulls four. He only goes to his belt twice. A double shooter has to 4 times. Shot a match not long ago that had two stages with odd number SG targets. A few shooters that are good with both. Went and grabbed there 97 for those stages. There was a reason for that ya know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead Ringer Posted October 23, 2013 Author Share Posted October 23, 2013 Full disclosure...Only one of the stages required you to shoot three, then move. The other stage that had 6 targets did not specify where the 6 targets were to be engaged from. There were all kinds of different ways you could have shot it. Two, then move 4. Two, move 2, move 2 and transition. You could have even shot all 6 standing in one spot. It was just that the targets were placed putting three over here and three over there. There were also 2 stages with only 2 SG targets. Thanks for the clarity on the stages. I had not shot the match or seen the stages. Just going on what I was told. Still good tender for for the discussion fire. Ringer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ugly, SASS #18106 Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 "There is a lot to think about when writing stages. From gunfighters to people with disabilities. Even taking in consideration for peoples height. To be able to see the target. Also a left handed shooter or right handed shooter." AMEN! Buck, you fellas did good! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madd Mike #8595 Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 The shooter I talked with just thought it wasn't a good design for a state match. I agreed with him. Go for it at the regular weekend shoot if they want. Ringer I carry both types of shotguns thatta way, I have a choice, if the need should rise a feller might ought to bee gud with both Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 Well, above, you will find post by some of the best SxS and 97 shooters I've ever seen like RRR, Kid Ziggy, Two Gun Tuco, Possum Skinner, Madd Mike and McKenzie River Drifter. (Sorri, but I ain't seen Billy Boots shoot but I heert he's mighty good). Anyhow, it looks like the opinions are split. In my opinion, based on watching some of the best in speed SG events, its probably a draw. Just my opinion. EDIT: I don't necessarily think a stage with 2 KD's is a disadvantage to the 97 shooter either. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coloradoblackjack Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 this problem has an easy fix...ban doubles. problem solved. you're welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Cajones Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 If you're shooting real gunpowder there ain't no '97s in your category anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Jack Daniels,58780 Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 Two stages with 6 shotgun targets only one of which needed to be shot 3 & 3. Two stages with only 2 shotgun targets. Seems like a wash to me, though some people feel the need to cry about anything that they don't like. As has been said don't go into the stage thinking you are at a disadvantage and you won't be, if you think you have a disadvantage you will have. People who write the stages have all kinds of variables to work with, right to left as opposed to left to right, tall shooters, short shooters, shooters with physical limitations, how will the black powder smoke disperse in a stage, props, the list goes on and on; shooters need to cut the stage writer some slack otherwise they may end up with no one willing to write stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 Shoot the stage as written and stop the sniveling......... If you don't like the perceived advantage/disadvantage, either practice more or get yourself a 97 or shoot in a category that REQUIRES the use of a double. There is no category that requires the use of a double. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Hearts Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 There is no category that requires the use of a double. I was referencing the categories that do not allow the use of a 97, as we were discussing the advantages of a 97 over a double. (B-Western SHOULD be restricted to doubles only) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 I was referencing the categories that do not allow the use of a 97, as we were discussing the advantages of a 97 over a double. I have a pet peeve (many actually ) about people misquoting the rules. No matter what you were "referencing," you were wrong. No category "REQUIRES the use of a double." All categories that do not allow the '97, do allow the '87. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Hearts Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 I have a pet peeve (many actually ) about people misquoting the rules. No matter what you were "referencing," you were wrong. No category "REQUIRES the use of a double." All categories that do not allow the '97, do allow the '87. You are correct. But I was not quoting rules. If I had I would have posted that rule. And if you wish to be technical, Plainsman is really a side match not a category, according to the rules. But Match Directors occasionally make it a category. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrub Oak Willie 53737 Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 Actually there were 4 stages with 6 KD's , not complaining , great shoot wish I did better !!! Willie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colt McAllister Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 This fits into one of the hardest things for a match directors to do judging by a lot of matches I've attended. For the most part over the past 5 or 6 years I'd say the matches have been leaning towards the advantage going to the sxs's. I'm not talking about the shoot 2 and move stages. A good 97 shooter can hang with sxs shooters on those type of runs. However, on shoot 2 and move stages a mediocre sxs will bury a mediocre 97 shooter. What I'm talking about is SG target placement. When every SG target is 18"-24" apart and the same height through out the whole match that is advantage sxs. The sxs shooters can get their muscle memory down where their splits sound like double taps. Now I know make ups are a disadvantage to the sxs shooters. That's what happened when the shoot targets until down rule became the norm. You want to even up shotguns, do no make ups On SG targets. Think about it! Of course you'll get hung from the nearest tree after the match. I know it's a little off topic, but I had to say it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 That stage design will give '97 shooters about a 2 second advantage over SxS shooters. I'd be willing to bet the stage writer shoots a '97, but I was wrong once before... You'd lose that bet, the stage writer shoots a hammered double. For clarity there was one stage where you had to shoot 3 and move, the other stage had 3 targets to the right of the center pistol targets and 3 to the left. You could pick up shotgun shoot 2 move to pistol targets and shoot the remaining 4 or you could pick up shotgun, move to center and easily shoot all 6 or any variation you chose from where the shotgun was staged to the table in front of the pistol targets where the shotgun had to be placed before finishing with pistols. Thanks Randy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 Anyhow, it looks like the opinions are split. ..........Widder Kind of like splitting the 6 shotgun shots up? I am sure there was no pun intended there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy the Avenger Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 i would say its a big disavantage to a sxs shoot thats why i bring my 97 and sxs, then again if im shooting with the dark side and the 97s in the safe im a little upset it just like making a gunfighter slit there pistols when i took the ro2 class we talked about poor stage writing and thats one of them. ps i love rifle reloads 10+1bonus ill use the marlin everytime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 You are correct. But I was not quoting rules. If I had I would have posted that rule. And if you wish to be technical, Plainsman is really a side match not a category, according to the rules. But Match Directors occasionally make it a category. Huh? Who brought up Plainsman? You should review the rules, the '97 is not allowed in Classic Cowboy, Frontiersman, and Frontier Cartridge. The '87 and Doubles are allowed in all three. If you were not quoting rules, anyone not familiar with them could have been misled by your post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 Huh? Who brought up Plainsman? You should review the rules, the '97 is not allowed in Classic Cowboy, Frontiersman, and Frontier Cartridge. The '87 and Doubles are allowed in all three. If you were not quoting rules, anyone not familiar with them could have been misled by your post. And, Frontier Cartridge Duelist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cherokee sgt. Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 MUST NOT HAVE HURT THAT MUCH DOUBLE SHOOTERS WERE TOP MALE & TOP LADY plus ranked less on that stage than 2nd Lady & male with 97 !!!!!!! I know I was there scores are on line !!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 And, Frontier Cartridge Duelist. Yes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boothill Bandit, SASS# 48598 Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 A plan to fail and miss is never a good thing. I don't go into it thinking I will miss. If you do. You will. You'll notice it was "if" I miss. It's not having a plan to fail; it's having a back-up plan. Nobody plans to drop a pistol, but it happens. Nobobdy goes to the line and says to themselves "I hope I don't shoot a prop", but it happens. Are you so confident in your abilities that you go to the line with only four shotshells in your belt for four knock downs? Because you have NEVER dropped or fumbled a reload or even dare I say, miss? Do you carry an extra rifle/pistol reload on your gunbelt? Because you have NEVER had a dead primer in a pistol and wanted to finish with a clean match or have NEVER jacked out a live round out of your rifle? Somehow I doubt it. Loading both tubes on an odd number set of targets is a back-up plan no more so than going to the line with a full shotgun belt and having a rifle/pistol reload handy. Because when that train wreck happens, and it will, it happens in a hurry and it's better to have a back-up plan than no plan at all and then just have to say "oh well, there went five seconds". Boothill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monco Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 I like a somewhat even combo in a match.....some stages that might favor 97 and some that might favor the SxS just to keep balance amongst shooters. Like others have said, SxS can shoot really quick between the two shots loaded where a 97 shooter has to load the second shot or load two and pump between. But with odd numbers of targets or high numbers of targets, the 97 shooter that can pull lots of shells can make up that difference. From my observations, it seems like those that practice their loading technique or are proficient through years of shooting are really pretty close between 97 and SxS in most scenarios. Personally, I like lots of SG targets....SG is my favorite gun to shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patagonia Pete Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 I hope someone has not already mentioned this ... I scanned ... didn't notice it mentioned ... Anyhow ... back a few years ... Doc "What's his name??" Shapiro JS Publications ... did an opinion/study on this and even mentions this exact scenario ... I can remember (at the time) this being responsible for a strong resolution (in our area) to avoid "odd" shotgun target stages. I can also remember (at the time) thinking that as a SxS shooter I might not mind such a setup ... if I happened to miss one and had to reshoot it (since there was no reason to go to the belt for a reload). Anyhow .. even though it made interesting discussion ... we never designed anymore stages with an odd (shotgun target) sequence. Of course ... every few years ... dead horses come alive ... but I think his logic and findings/conclusions are still valid as they were then. Read it ... it is short and should add something to think about in regard to this thread ... http://www.jspublications.net/tips/97vSxS.html Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 Shotgun is my worst gun to shoot. I've heard it said that having lots of shotgun targets on each stage slows down the fast shooters, I say HOGWASH. The fast shooters are the ones who practice and will digest the extra shotgun targets with ease. What lots of shotgun targets on multiple stages does do is slow down the average shooters and widen the gap between them and the fast shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chickamauga Charlie, SASS #47963 Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 Shoot the stage as written and stop the sniveling......... If you don't like the perceived advantage/disadvantage, either practice more or get yourself a 97 or shoot in a category that REQUIRES the use of a double. Besides, bad guys didn't always align themselves in even numbers. Of course, I am the kind of guy who thinks 97 shooters ought to be able to load more than two. If the darn thing will hold five and you want to stuff them in there on the clock, then go ahead. (Just for the record, I shoot a double) Marlins have advantage on rifle reloads..... Maybe we should do more multi-shot reloads on the rifle. Maybe we should write stages with 9 rifle shots because it is unfair to 9 shot 92 shooters to have to reload one each time we have a 10 shot stage. For pistol reloads of 5 shots, get a Scofield. I am done be sarcastic now. (For the moment) that is a sh!tty response youre better than that I believe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straight Arrow Hombre Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 that is a sh!tty response youre better than that I believe To the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Cinch, SASS#29433 Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 Shotgun is my worst gun to shoot. I've heard it said that having lots of shotgun targets on each stage slows down the fast shooters, I say HOGWASH. The fast shooters are the ones who practice and will digest the extra shotgun targets with ease. What lots of shotgun targets on multiple stages does do is slow down the average shooters and widen the gap between them and the fast shooters. Hang in there Grizz, The good shooters are good shooters... if ya come to see how well you can compete its as simple as get out of the truck and shoot the match. Then you will know how ya did! I like my hog to be washed by someone in a bikini!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buck D. Law, SASS #62183 Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 You are correct. But I was not quoting rules. If I had I would have posted that rule. And if you wish to be technical, Plainsman is really a side match not a category, according to the rules. But Match Directors occasionally make it a category. If you find yourself in a hole, the first thing you do is stop digging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buck D. Law, SASS #62183 Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 Yep, a three move and shoot three more will give an advantage to a 97 shooter. Shotgun targets placed very close together benefits a double shooter. Buck D. Law Jack of all trades 97 and double, master of none. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fargo Bill, SASS #4942 Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 Was recently talkin' with a cowboy who had just attended a State SASS Match. He enjoyed everything about the match, except how they had split the shotgun knock downs in groups of 3's on two stages. (must be engaged in the groups of 3's) Question to the fire: Is it a disadvantage to the SxS shooter? Does the 97 shooter get the advantage from this stage design? I've attended plenty of State and Regional matches in different parts of the country. Been to Winter Range three times and EOT twice. I have never seen this at any of those matches in the last four years. I also reviewed the stage design PDF on the SASS home page, It doesn't mention it. Although it seems a little out of date? Doesn't seem to be a level playing field to me. (simple solution would be to split up in three groups of two's or a group of four and two) Ringer You never know how the bad guys will align themselves----Sometimes in single file, sometimes paired, and then times where 3 or 4 appear. GETTUM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buck D. Law, SASS #62183 Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 I have a pet peeve (many actually ) about people misquoting the rules. No matter what you were "referencing," you were wrong. No category "REQUIRES the use of a double." All categories that do not allow the '97, do allow the '87. Are you sure it's not on page 33 of RO1? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead Ringer Posted October 24, 2013 Author Share Posted October 24, 2013 You never know how the bad guys will align themselves----Sometimes in single file, sometimes paired, and then times where 3 or 4 appear. GETTUM When the cowboy zombies show up, I hope they are well behaved and come at me single file. And since I'm hoping, I'd like my cowboy AR at the ready Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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