Placed Round, or Dropped Round - Make the call

[Montana Longhair 27261]

Was at a shoot, runni'n my rifle, jacked the last round, caught it in mid air, and instinctivly thru in back in and fired, ro thought it was really cool and fast, then I thought aww crap, round came out, and I did not pull another round from my body msv+miss. Knew it when it happened, brain went dead fur a spell there, laughed, these things happen!

 

Happy trails-- furball

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

Hi Stan,

 

It is correct the call for picking up a dropped round, which this was as the shooter did not place it on the table.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

Read the shooters handbook quote that I put posted.....this round was not a reload.....

 

Stan

[riverview rattler]

Pards…remember illegally acquired ammo is ( ammo that was not brought to the line in an approved manner.) example:
handed to the shooter by someone or carried in an illegal way, in mouth or other unapproved manner.

 

Dropping a round doesn’t make a illegal round to use. Picking it up earns you the MVS, and I agree that this rule needs to be changed.

[Happy Jack, SASS #20451]

Stan, you know I like you BUT you are wrong on this one. It is a MSV for retrieving the round that fell onto the table. No miss for using it as the round was carried to the line in an approved manner. As for doing away with the MSV for retrieving a dropped or ejected round, we did that in WBAS 2 years ago. NO PROBLEMS have occurred. I totally support doing away with the penalty.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

O.K., I think I'm understanding this alittle better. So lets see if I have it correct now.

 

IF a dropped/ejected round (legally carried to the line) is retreived and used on the stage, it is a MSV.....AND, if the round hits the target, it will be considered a hit........its only a Miss if it misses the target.

 

BUT, if ILLEGAL ammo is used, it is a 'P' and a Miss.....even if it hits the target.

 

Sure hope I got this right.

 

 

..........Widder

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

SO, thus far we have determined the penalty is only issued for USING the dropped/picked up round, not for the actual act of picking it up. Correct? Makes no sense. Once you have it in your hand, it's just as safe to load and use as a round off the body.

[Happy Jack, SASS #20451]

Poossum Skinner, NO that is incorrect. The penalty occurs as soon as the person "retrieves" the round. They can drop it and not use it but they still get the MSV. Go to the thread referenced on the first page where PaleWolf answers the question.

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

HJ,

Oh. Ok. At least that makes sense. Thank you for correcting that. Still, as we all agree, an unnecessary rule.

 

Possum

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

Stan, you know I like you BUT you are wrong on this one. It is a MSV for retrieving the round that fell onto the table. No miss for using it as the round was carried to the line in an approved manner. As for doing away with the MSV for retrieving a dropped or ejected round, we did that in WBAS 2 years ago. NO PROBLEMS have occurred. I totally support doing away with the penalty.

 

So what if he had place his hand of top of the receiver and turned the rifle over thus ending up with the round in his hand?

 

 

Stan

[Krazy Kajun]

So what if he had place his hand of top of the receiver and turned the rifle over thus ending up with the round in his hand?

 

 

Stan

IMHO, as long as the round does not fall on a prop or the ground and remains in the gun or shooter's hand the round would still be live and usable. So placing his hand on the receiver and rolling the rifle over and dropping the stove-piped round in his hand should be fine.....just load it back into the rifle and use it.

[Happy Jack, SASS #20451]

Stan, the example given in ROI bullet point #24 addresses the issue. Last sentence bottom of page 19, continued on top of page 20:

"Once the dropped round leaves the shooter's hand or control, it is considered to be a dead round."

 

So, IF the shooter were to remove the round directly from the rifle into their hand it could be re-used without penalty. But I doubt that would normally occur.

[Ranger Clayton Conagher #43872]

So what if he had place his hand of top of the receiver and turned the rifle over thus ending up with the round in his hand?

 

 

Stan

 

Stan, the example given in ROI bullet point #24 addresses the issue. Last sentence bottom of page 19, continued on top of page 20:

"Once the dropped round leaves the shooter's hand or control, it is considered to be a dead round."

 

So, IF the shooter were to remove the round directly from the rifle into their hand it could be re-used without penalty. But I doubt that would normally occur.

 

I believe there is your answer. I've had shooters throw a shotgun shell in backwards. What you describe of reaching up top and adjusting the bullet are the same.

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

So Dear Readers,

 

Today at a local match, a shooter was having some trouble with his rifle. During the string, a live round stove piped up, so he flipped the rifle over and opened the lever. The round dropped to the table. He then picked it up and loaded it into the rifle and finished the string.

 

After the shooter finished, the TO and I had a little sidebar. I said, "Nope, it's a MSV for retrieving a dead round". He said, "Not true, he intentionally placed it on the table, so no-call". I just smiled and said well have it your way, you are the TO.

 

So, without exaggeration, I would say this was a fair account of what happened. In my mind, "placing" a round on the table would have included using the fingers of the hand, not gravity. And, I don't want to be a hard-ass, but I would have called it.

 

So, what is "placing" vs. "dropping"?

Dan, and others who have posted. I am not reading posts past OP so do not know more discussion that might have taken place. With that said, if I had been TO and it seemed that shooter was indentionally ejected round to table, I would call it a "placed round" and not penalize him for the act. However, if shooter just ejected it in the air and it landed on table convenient for retrieval I would lean more to calling the round a "dropped" round. I will read more post later and see if I am of majority or minority.

 

As I understand it, this round rule may soon go away....hope so.

bb

[COLORADO JACKSON]

Dan, and others who have posted. I am not reading posts past OP so do not know more discussion that might have taken place. With that said, if I had been TO and it seemed that shooter was indentionally ejected round to table, I would call it a "placed round" and not penalize him for the act. However, if shooter just ejected it in the air and it landed on table convenient for retrieval I would lean more to calling the round a "dropped" round. I will read more post later and see if I am of majority or minority.

 

As I understand it, this round rule may soon go away....hope so.

bb

+1 ^^^^^^^

[Cassalong Hopidy]

Hi Rance,

 

The rule about illegally acquired ammo says "The penalty for using "illegally acquired" ammunition (i.e. NOT carried to the line/staged by the shooter in an approved manner) will be a PROCEDURAL. Any targets hit using that ammo will be scored as MISSES. NO adjustments will be made to the stage raw time."

 

The rule that applies here was quoted by Ramrod in post 5. This thread is specifically about a dropped round not an illegally acquired round (such as someone handing the shooter SG rounds when he/she runs out).

 

Regards,

 

Allie

 

PS I'm in the camp that hopes the dropped round rule will go away in December and we will only be concerned when the 170 is broken.

Allie

 

On the other hand, the Miss Flow Chart starts with the question whether the shooter engaged all the targets with "legally acquired ammo," with a "No" response directing the reader to "Assess Misses." I was specifically admonished that using dropped ammo resulted in both a MSV and misses for all targets shot with such impermissibly retrieved ammo. The rule is a mess--e.g., it yields the implausible result that pulling shotshells and placing them on the table allows them to be reloaded and used, but "dropping" them on the table--even from a height of .005 inches, renders them "dead," with the attendant penalty consequences. Since the driving consideration was presumably loss of muzzle control and safety, the rule needs to be rewritten to confine itself to situations in which a loss of muzzle control is inevitable or highly likely--e.g. retrieving rounds which drop from the hand or firearm to the ground.

[White Buffalo]

 

Howdy Possum.

 

I agree, I would like to see it go away also for those reasons you stated.

 

I poised the same question to myowndangself this morning: 'letter of the law or spirit of the law'.

 

Here is what my conversation to myself said:

 

Suppose a shooter stages his '97 SG with the port up on a table. While shooting the rifle, the shooter ejects a LIVE round and it goes right into the port of the '97 SG. Before he/she can shoot the SG to finish out the stage, they reach into the port and pick out that live, ejected 'DEAD ROUND' and throw it on the table.

 

QUESTION: The LETTER of the LAW would require a MSV on this incident because the shooter picked up that dead round, although the intent wasn't to use it in the stage.

 

Thats why I'm thinking that 'something' was defined last year that limited the MSV to only if the dead round was used.....not touched, etc...

 

I'm eager to see how this situation is determined.

 

 

..........Widder

No call on this one. You were removing foreign object from gun to prevent further problems

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

Stan, the example given in ROI bullet point #24 addresses the issue. Last sentence bottom of page 19, continued on top of page 20:

"Once the dropped round leaves the shooter's hand or control, it is considered to be a dead round."

 

So, IF the shooter were to remove the round directly from the rifle into their hand it could be re-used without penalty. But I doubt that would normally occur.

Let's look at it

 

24. Ammunition dropped by a shooter in the course of loading or reloading any firearm during a stage or “ejected” is considered “dead” and may not be recovered until the shooter completes the course of fire.

 

Bullet 24 refers to 2 different kinds of ammunition......

 

Type 1 - Ammo dropped during the course of loading or reloading any firearm

 

OR

 

Type 2 - "ejected" ammo

 

..........Right?

 

What type of ammo does this round fall under?

 

I don't see how it could be seen as Type 1 since the firearm was not being loaded or reloaded........Right?

 

So you are saying it was "ejected".....since you are saying it was ejected then the example of having "control" would no longer apply. The mere fact that it was ejected would make it dead......since shaking the round out of the rifle onto a table is "ejected" then shaking a round into my hand would be "ejected" as well....RIGHT?

 

I have seen a lot of 97 shooters load a round into the shotgun either backwards or on top of an empty and shake the round ie "eject it" into their hand. Based on this discussion that would be a MSV.....

 

Stan

 

P.S. Why don't we get rid of this stoopid rule altogether and just call a violation on a shooter if they actually do something that is unsafe!

 

P.S.S. If we did that we would have one less thing to beat around here.....let's just leave it.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

AMEN STAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

MSV, ONLY.............................FOR NOW!

[Krazy Kajun]

Allie

 

On the other hand, the Miss Flow Chart starts with the question whether the shooter engaged all the targets with "legally acquired ammo," with a "No" response directing the reader to "Assess Misses." I was specifically admonished that using dropped ammo resulted in both a MSV and misses for all targets shot with such impermissibly retrieved ammo. The rule is a mess--e.g., it yields the implausible result that pulling shotshells and placing them on the table allows them to be reloaded and used, but "dropping" them on the table--even from a height of .005 inches, renders them "dead," with the attendant penalty consequences. Since the driving consideration was presumably loss of muzzle control and safety, the rule needs to be rewritten to confine itself to situations in which a loss of muzzle control is inevitable or highly likely--e.g. retrieving rounds which drop from the hand or firearm to the ground.

Sounds like lawyer wording to me....you wouldn't, by chance, be a practitioner of such vocation?

[J-BAR #18287]

I fear we have become Pharisees.

 

My son has expressed interest in shooting with me. If he reads this thread, he will stick with baseball.

[Happy Jack, SASS #20451]

Stan, we're having fun, right? I didn't write the CAS rulebooks. I will take the blame for the WBAS rulebooks though. In WBAS a dropped/ejected/fumbled, etc. etc. round is a NO CALL. You can reuse it without penalty. I can't fix CAS, I just shoot it between WBAS matches. I think in their effort to "clarify" the dropped/ejected round MSV rule some confusion was created. The INTENT of the rule is clear,(at least to me) but the explainations aren't the best. Maybe if the unnecessary MSV for the dropped/ejected round is eliminated we can discuss other things. Hope to see you at EOT !!!

[Anvil Al #59168]

I fear we have become Pharisees.

 

My son has expressed interest in shooting with me. If he reads this thread, he will stick with baseball.

 

 

No offence. But if would take that little for him to change his mind. he was never going to do it anyway.

 

And have you SEEN some of the calls in baseball this year. That might want him to not play baseball.

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

Stan, we're having fun, right? I didn't write the CAS rulebooks. I will take the blame for the WBAS rulebooks though. In WBAS a dropped/ejected/fumbled, etc. etc. round is a NO CALL. You can reuse it without penalty. I can't fix CAS, I just shoot it between WBAS matches. I think in their effort to "clarify" the dropped/ejected round MSV rule some confusion was created. The INTENT of the rule is clear,(at least to me) but the explainations aren't the best. Maybe if the unnecessary MSV for the dropped/ejected round is eliminated we can discuss other things. Hope to see you at EOT !!!

Most definitely having fun

 

Wish I was going to EOT I'll bet it's a barn burner this year!!!!!

 

Stan

[Dang It Dan 13202]

NOW........you see what I have to put up with all dang year long. I do believe that Stan can turn and twist a situation to just about any outcome he wants to, so when I dig my heals in, he starts his "there are two kinds of ammo we are talking about" - stuff. REALLY?!?

 

To all who have been around us for a while, they know we are not arguing, but debating the issue. This is how we teach each other, and most likely all who have gathered around for the Ping-Pong match. We have also been known to frustrate a stage marshal or two along the way, and have sent more than one MD running for their rule book(s).

 

I have to wonder.........how do most folk really learn the rules and how to apply them. Certainly not by taking the RO classes, but I would guess by holding the timer just like I did. But, say what you want about the Wire, this is still the best place to flesh a lot of this out.

[SGT. ELI 35882 GUNFIGHTER]

Was at a shoot, runni'n my rifle, jacked the last round, caught it in mid air, and instinctivly thru in back in and fired, ro thought it was really cool and fast, then I thought aww crap, round came out, and I did not pull another round from my body msv+miss. Knew it when it happened, brain went dead fur a spell there, laughed, these things happen!

 

Happy trails-- furball

Furball, that would have been a MSV only, no miss.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

PS I've been an advocate of dumping this rule for quite a few years. It's just too long and convoluted to be easily remembered. Now with the fairly new "illegally acquired ammo rule," just look at all of the confusion.

[Colt McCloud, SASS #65003L]

^{For the OP I agree with all of them it's a dropped round. I would like to say that I don't feel that is a "hard a$$" call. Shooters with experience need to know this rule and the new ones need to learn.}

 

^{Now for removing the dropped round rule I have serious reservations about it being removed TOTALLY (IE: retrieve from a table fine but not from the ground or if bending over required). We all know some folks just aren't as flexible or agile or capable of proper muzzle control when things get going after the buzzer and "things" happen. For those reasons I would rather see a modification to the rule.}

[COLORADO JACKSON]

No offence. But if would take that little for him to change his mind. he was never going to do it anyway.

 

And have you SEEN some of the calls in baseball this year. That might want him to not play baseball.

Well said Al...

[J-BAR #18287]

You guys don't offend me. The rules themselves are offensive.

 

Soccer has 17 rules. It's simple. You may not like soccer, but it is simple enough that millions play it world wide.

 

CAS has a handbook, two RO courses, and decisions and clarifications on that handbook and the RO courses. Look at who has contributed to this thread: when you have intelligent experienced shooters like Dang It Dan, Widowmaker Hill, Sante Fe River Stan, Snakebite, Allie Mo, etc. who are waiting for Pale Wolf Brunnelle to give the final word, then its a bad rule. And why in the world is this sport so dependent on one person to define the rules? I love PWB. He is a saint, and he has been kind and patient with my private messages and questions. But this is another indication that the rules have become like the IRS tax code and Obamacare regulations. The fact that we all wait for the "official" word from one person is another symptom that the rules are out of control. What in the world is the sport going to do when we can no longer turn to PWB?

 

I used to enjoy running the timer. I used to think I was kinda good at it. But not anymore. I will take my percussion guns to the unloading table and clear the shooters as I recharge my cylinders. Rules like this take the fun out of the game.

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

^{For the OP I agree with all of them it's a dropped round. I would like to say that I don't feel that is a "hard a$$" call. Shooters with experience need to know this rule and the new ones need to learn.}

 

^{Now for removing the dropped round rule I have serious reservations about it being removed TOTALLY (IE: retrieve from a table fine but not from the ground or if bending over required). We all know some folks just aren't as flexible or agile or capable of proper muzzle control when things get going after the buzzer and "things" happen. For those reasons I would rather see a modification to the rule.}

I think a person would like the option to pick up the round wherever it falls. The key there is the option. They don't have to do it and they also have the option to pick one off the body.

 

As long as the maintain muzzle direction and do not break the 170, give them the option. What they decide to do is up to the shooter.

 

Me, if it hits the floor, I wouldn't go fetch it. Unless I was shooting a clean match and it was my last shell. Then, I might like the option...

 

But until the rule changes, right now, the only option is to pull one off the body.

[Mink Shoals Bandit, #49388]

^{For the OP I agree with all of them it's a dropped round. I would like to say that I don't feel that is a "hard a$$" call. Shooters with experience need to know this rule and the new ones need to learn.}

 

^{Now for removing the dropped round rule I have serious reservations about it being removed TOTALLY (IE: retrieve from a table fine but not from the ground or if bending over required). We all know some folks just aren't as flexible or agile or capable of proper muzzle control when things get going after the buzzer and "things" happen. For those reasons I would rather see a modification to the rule.}

 

I agree with Colt, actually after 60+ posts in this thread I forgot the question........No ,really if the shooter ejected and/ or dumped, dropped or otherwise removed a round from their rifle that was "legally aquired ammo", (brought to the line in the magazine ), it would be a MSV when they retrieved it, but since it was used in the course of fire successfully, it would NOT be considered a miss. I also think the rule should be modified not eliminated. Any rounds that are dropped or fall on a shelf or table where the shooter can retrieve it safely, as within arms reach, should be legal to use. Most shooters are not going to bend over or spend a lot of time with dropped ammo if it faster to pull from their belt anyway..........

Mink..............

[Widder, SASS #59054]

J Bar,

 

I can't speak for those others but as for me.....you are correct. I was confused. It was (is) my own fault because I was mixing terminology like 'illegally acquired ammo' with 'dead' ammo. And in reality, they are different in their definitions and penalties.

 

I don't mind admitting that this thread has helped me understand alittle better.

 

As for Dang it Dan and Stan, they probably baited the rest of us out of boredom. Ya see, its spitefully hot down in Florida, their pet alligators are occupying their swimming pool, so they get on the Wire and start an RO / TO class.....

 

 

..........Widder

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

Yea, and I taint down there to quide them....ehehehe

 

pbcc

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

Widder aka Nimblesob,

You are funny sir. I'm a simple cracker with a pond not a pool! No gators either. Too tasty to allow them to stay in the pond too long.

 

I like the WTC's. they seem to get carried away but they can be very educational. I told Dan I was going to call it that way, tell the shooter to not do that again and it would make a great WTC....and it has.

 

I don't disagree with Happy Jack about the "intention" of the rule BUT we have to go by what is written just the same as we have to go by the miss flow chart. There is no doubt as to a shooters intention sometimes but all we can go on is what actually happened ie how the targets where HIT.

 

This is but one example of how the rules are lawyered to death sometimes and/or don't make sense. I think having a safety rule in place to keep someone from breaking a safety rule is silly. So lets get rid of it and penalize the shooters when they actually do something that is unsafe.

 

Once we do that we can work in the definition of a miss. I'm still hate that the fact that HITTING a pistol target with the rifle is a miss and not a P!

 

Stan

 

Ps J-bar do the best ya can and have fun. I suspect that you are a fine TO and if we all keep discussing the issues it will get better.

 

PSS. If you are responsible for making calls at a match these discussions are indispensable. The more odd situations you encounter the better prepared you will be to make the call when you need to do so. Just make sure you can show the shooter in print why you are making the call.

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

WWJD?