Placed Round, or Dropped Round - Make the call

[Dang It Dan 13202]

So Dear Readers,

 

Today at a local match, a shooter was having some trouble with his rifle. During the string, a live round stove piped up, so he flipped the rifle over and opened the lever. The round dropped to the table. He then picked it up and loaded it into the rifle and finished the string.

 

After the shooter finished, the TO and I had a little sidebar. I said, "Nope, it's a MSV for retrieving a dead round". He said, "Not true, he intentionally placed it on the table, so no-call". I just smiled and said well have it your way, you are the TO.

 

So, without exaggeration, I would say this was a fair account of what happened. In my mind, "placing" a round on the table would have included using the fingers of the hand, not gravity. And, I don't want to be a hard-ass, but I would have called it.

 

So, what is "placing" vs. "dropping"?

[Krazy Kajun]

I'm not PWB..... but I'd say that you have to "stage" the round on the table prior to the beeper starting.....that's IF the stage instructions allowed the said staging of the round. You can't pick up a dropped round on the clock....on the ground or on a prop without getting a safety.

[White Buffalo]

I say dropped. RO class 1 handbook clearly states dropped. Because it was ejected from the gun.

Pg 19 paragraph 24

 

Ammunition dropped by a shooter in the course of loading or reloading any firearm during a stage or “ejected” is considered “dead” and may not be recovered until the shooter completes the course of fire. The round must be replaced from the shooter’s person or other area as required by stage description, or if the round is not fired it is counted as a missed shot.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

If he had taken the round from the carrier and then PLACED it on the table using his/her hand, no call,

 

if it dropped from the rifle onto the table, MSV the second he retrieved it.

 

dropping is not Placing.

 

you were right!

 

TO needs refresher course!

 

pbcc

[Flying W Ramrod]

ROI Page 19/20

24. Ammunition dropped by a shooter in the course of loading or reloading any firearm during a stage or "ejected" is considered "dead" and may not be recovered until the shooter completes the course of fire. The round must be replaced from the shooter’s person or other area as required by stage description, or if the round is not fired it is counted as a missed shot.

For example, if a round of shotgun ammo is dropped while loading, the round must be replaced from the shooter’s person or other area as required by stage description or counted as a miss. No attempt may be made by the shooter, or any other person, to pick up the dropped round for use on that stage. Shooters trying to recover a dropped round prompts loss of muzzle direction control. Once the dropped round leaves the shooter’s hand or control, it is considered to be a dead round. Stop the shooter if he tries to recover the dead round. It is a 10-second Minor Safety Violation if the shooter retrieves the round during the stage.

Staged rounds that are dropped back where they were staged are NOT considered "dead." For example, if a round is staged in a box on a table and it is dropped back into the box, it may be picked up. If it falls onto the table, it may not be picked up. Rounds safely "placed" onto a prop from their original loading area are not considered "dropped" rounds as long as recovering these rounds does not create loss of muzzle control.

 

 

Anytime a round leaves the control of the shooter it is considered dropped.

Staging on the prop usually occurs after the beep if the stage instructions don't allow for pre staging.

Sounds like the TO was trying to be a "good guy" but needed to call it or use it as a training excercise and let the shooter know it's not done that way.

 

[Frederick Jackson Turner]

Loss of control = dropped round. When he ejected it, no matter how intentionally, he lost control of the round.

 

Good call, Dan.

 

Cheers,

FJT

[Wyatt]

In prior discussions on the topic it came down to the act of merely touching the round was considered retrieving.

 

MSV

[Wyatt]

Plus 1 miss

[Widder, SASS #59054]

1st: I agree with Dan and the MSV penalty.

 

2nd: something in my mind is telling me that during this past year, the MSV penalty isn't assessed unless the shooter 'uses' the dead round and that merely touching it again or 'reaching down to pick it up' isn't the infraction.

 

I don't have a hot line to PWB (and he's glad about that) and I'm eagerly waiting for him to have his MONDAY morning cup of joe (and pepto bismol) before he opens up the Wire and clarifies all of the weekend inquiries.

 

 

 

..........Widder

[Captain Bill Burt]

In prior discussions on the topic it came down to the act of merely touching the round was considered retrieving.

 

MSV

+1

 

Plus 1 miss

+1

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

In prior discussions on the topic it came down to the act of merely touching the round was considered retrieving.

 

MSV

 

Plus 1 miss

MSV and as Wyatt pointed out.. 1 miss...

 

This happened to me just yesterday..

Picked up my SxS had it loaded and oops... I'm suppose to be shootin' my pistols..

 

Took the shells out. laid them on the table..put the SxS down and shot my pistols..

Picked up my SxS... (went thru my brain) reloaded from my body..

I was thinkin' those shells on the table might be dead...

Finished the stage..

 

Rance

Thinkin' I might have got by with it.. but why chance it?

[Red-Eyed Kid, SASS # 37263]

got the double jeopardy here.......msv for picking up and useing the dropped dead round ( it was dropped NOT placed) and 1 miss for useing illegally acquired ammo.

[SGT. ELI 35882 GUNFIGHTER]

MSV for retrieving the round, miss does not apply.

[Red-Eyed Kid, SASS # 37263]

Cowboy rance, you could have picked up and used those shells. You said "laid them on the table", you placed them there. If you would have tilted your double and let them fall onto the table, then No you couldn't re-use them.

[Anvil Al #59168]

So Dear Readers,

 

Today at a local match, a shooter was having some trouble with his rifle. During the string, a live round stove piped up, so he flipped the rifle over and opened the lever. The round dropped to the table. He then picked it up and loaded it into the rifle and finished the string.

 

After the shooter finished, the TO and I had a little sidebar. I said, "Nope, it's a MSV for retrieving a dead round". He said, "Not true, he intentionally placed it on the table, so no-call". I just smiled and said well have it your way, you are the TO.

 

So, without exaggeration, I would say this was a fair account of what happened. In my mind, "placing" a round on the table would have included using the fingers of the hand, not gravity. And, I don't want to be a hard-ass, but I would have called it.

 

So, what is "placing" vs. "dropping"?

 

 

No if ands or buts. IT was DROPPED.

 

Shooter could argue until he was blue in the face. But he still dropped it out of that gun.

[Dang It Dan 13202]

There was no miss here. The fact is that there is no penalty for using a "dead" round, only the act of retrieving the round.

 

So......here is the second question: The rule was written in an effort to keep folks from breaking the 170 while retrieving a dropped round. We already have a the 170 rule in place, so if you break the 170 at anytime, you get a SDQ. In my opinion, this rule needs to be struck completely. If a person drops a round and can safely retrieve it, then good for them. I hate giving someone a penalty if they haven't done something unsafe.

 

Just my thoughts.

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

Just a MSV.

 

http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=205836&hl=

[SOUTH-PACIFIC,SASS #59402]

There was no miss here. The fact is that there is no penalty for using a "dead" round, only the act of retrieving the round.

 

So......here is the second question: The rule was written in an effort to keep folks from breaking the 170 while retrieving a dropped round. We already have a the 170 rule in place, so if you break the 170 at anytime, you get a SDQ. In my opinion, this rule needs to be struck completely. If a person drops a round and can safely retrieve it, then good for them. I hate giving someone a penalty if they haven't done something unsafe.

 

Just my thoughts.

this is being discussed at the tg summit

[Widder, SASS #59054]

WOW, I must really be behind times.

 

Of course, if the round is ruled 'not dead', then there is no miss.

 

But considering the issue is that it should have been a dead round, then using it and even hitting the target, should also be a miss.....or atleast I thought so.

 

Thank goodness for alot of these 'Whats the Call' threads. I don't mind admitting that I try to learn from them.

 

 

..........Widder

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

From the shooters handbook page.....23

 

24. Ammunition dropped by a shooter in the course of reloading any firearm during a stage or “ejected” from any firearm is considered “dead” and may not be recovered until the shooter completes the course of fire. The round must be replaced from the shooter’s person or other area as required by stage description or if the round is not fired it is counted as a missed shot. Staged ammunition dropped back where it was staged is not considered “dead.”

 

This particular round was not "ejected" by levering the gun. The lever was already OPEN (never seen a stove pipe without the rifle being open) and the gun was rolled over.........nor was it a reload.......

 

 

What if the shooter had rolled it over into his hand?

 

Stan

 

P.S. Quite some time ago it was made VERY clear to me by PWB and several TG's that if a round was stove piped and the shooter reached up and grabbed the round that it could be reused......hmmm......how different is this?....it really boils down to the definition of ejected and that I can't find in the glossary of terms.

[Anvil Al #59168]

But it sounds like he did not reach up and grab it and then reuse it.

Nor did he grab it and stage it or grab it and place it on the table.

 

Sounds like he "dropped it out".

Key word would be dropped.

It was not placed or staged. It was dropped.

 

Like the rule or not. It is still the rule.

 

But will go by whatever Palewolf says.

[Dang It Dan 13202]

For the sake of complete disclosure, Santa Fe River Stan was the TO and I was spotting right behind the shooter. And, as most of you know, Stan and I are friends and we like to have these little discussions about the rules when these things happen.

 

At any rate, Stan is correct in saying that the round was not "ejected" per se. And, if he had rolled the gun over and caught the round in his hand I wouldn't have said anything. But when the round hit the table, he "lost control" over it - or did he? There is no doubt that he intentionally meant to drop that round on the table where he could get to it because he did it without hesitation.

 

But the big question is.....does it really make a difference anyway?

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

WOW, I must really be behind times.

 

Of course, if the round is ruled 'not dead', then there is no miss.

 

But considering the issue is that it should have been a dead round, then using it and even hitting the target, should also be a miss.....or atleast I thought so.

 

Thank goodness for alot of these 'Whats the Call' threads. I don't mind admitting that I try to learn from them.

 

 

..........Widder

 

OK.. I'm confused too..

He shot the target with an illegally retrieved round??

 

Rance

[Wyatt]

Oh........So Stan was involved.........that splains a lot.

 

I've seen that smile

[Snakebite]

IMO, the round was dead. If he had picked it out of the gun and placed it on the table, it would have been OK to use it. I have watched shooters with a 97 which had a shell in backwards. When they start shaking the gun to get the shell out, I watch carefully. It is often shaken over a table. If the shell come directly out of the gun onto the table, it is dead... if it comes out of the gun into his hand, I allow it's use.

 

Snakebite

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

There was no miss here. The fact is that there is no penalty for using a "dead" round, only the act of retrieving the round.

 

So......here is the second question: The rule was written in an effort to keep folks from breaking the 170 while retrieving a dropped round. We already have a the 170 rule in place, so if you break the 170 at anytime, you get a SDQ. In my opinion, this rule needs to be struck completely. If a person drops a round and can safely retrieve it, then good for them. I hate giving someone a penalty if they haven't done something unsafe.

 

Just my thoughts.

As has been pointed out, it's on the agenda for the TG Summit to discard the rule. Talk to your TG's. I will be talking to mine. I'm with you, I hate giving someone the penalty and honestly I rarely have to (but I will) simply because I can typically "head it off at the pass," particularly if I'm the TO.

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

For the sake of complete disclosure, Santa Fe River Stan was the TO and I was spotting right behind the shooter. And, as most of you know, Stan and I are friends and we like to have these little discussions about the rules when these things happen.

 

At any rate, Stan is correct in saying that the round was not "ejected" per se. And, if he had rolled the gun over and caught the round in his hand I wouldn't have said anything. But when the round hit the table, he "lost control" over it - or did he? There is no doubt that he intentionally meant to drop that round on the table where he could get to it because he did it without hesitation.

 

But the big question is.....does it really make a difference anyway?

 

I guess it gets into the 'Do we enforce the Letter of the Law or Spirit of the Law' debate. I think for consistency we have to enforce the Letter of the Law, but I don't like it. It is a rule that should go away. As said, there is already a rule covering the action this rule is supposed to be preventing. Why punish someone who hasn't done anything unsafe just because somebody else once committed an unsafe act doing the same thing?

 

Possum

[Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385]

There was no miss here. The fact is that there is no penalty for using a "dead" round, only the act of retrieving the round.

 

So......here is the second question: The rule was written in an effort to keep folks from breaking the 170 while retrieving a dropped round. We already have a the 170 rule in place, so if you break the 170 at anytime, you get a SDQ. In my opinion, this rule needs to be struck completely. If a person drops a round and can safely retrieve it, then good for them. I hate giving someone a penalty if they haven't done something unsafe.

 

Just my thoughts.

+1

 

but right now I agree MSV

 

Also about the rule about retrieving rds ,sometimes stage writers have us retrieve shotgun shells from boxes,pans,saddle bags ,etc. and folks do it safely,too me it should be dead if it hits the ground.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

I guess it gets into the 'Do we enforce the Letter of the Law or Spirit of the Law' debate. I think for consistency we have to enforce the Letter of the Law, but I don't like it. It is a rule that should go away. As said, there is already a rule covering the action this rule is supposed to be preventing. Why punish someone who hasn't done anything unsafe just because somebody else once committed an unsafe act doing the same thing?

 

Possum

 

Howdy Possum.

 

I agree, I would like to see it go away also for those reasons you stated.

 

I poised the same question to myowndangself this morning: 'letter of the law or spirit of the law'.

 

Here is what my conversation to myself said:

 

Suppose a shooter stages his '97 SG with the port up on a table. While shooting the rifle, the shooter ejects a LIVE round and it goes right into the port of the '97 SG. Before he/she can shoot the SG to finish out the stage, they reach into the port and pick out that live, ejected 'DEAD ROUND' and throw it on the table.

 

QUESTION: The LETTER of the LAW would require a MSV on this incident because the shooter picked up that dead round, although the intent wasn't to use it in the stage.

 

Thats why I'm thinking that 'something' was defined last year that limited the MSV to only if the dead round was used.....not touched, etc...

 

I'm eager to see how this situation is determined.

 

 

..........Widder

[Snakebite]

No penalty..... hummm?? Seems like it might be the same as using "Illegally acquired ammo"?

 

Snakebite

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hello,

 

TGs, I BTTed PWB's comments about this type of thing on the TG Wire. Basically he said it is a MSV, the rule about illegally acquired ammo doesn't apply, and "Any targets hit with "retrieved ammo" count."

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

Hello,

 

TGs, I BTTed PWB's comments about this type of thing on the TG Wire. Basically he said it is a MSV, the rule about illegally acquired ammo doesn't apply, and "Any targets hit with "retrieved ammo" count."

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

NOT the same scenario as we have here.......

 

Stan

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

So Dear Readers,

 

... The round dropped to the table. He then picked it up and loaded it into the rifle and finished the string.

 

...

Hi Stan,

 

It is correct the call for picking up a dropped round, which this was as the shooter did not place it on the table.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

Hello,

 

TGs, I BTTed PWB's comments about this type of thing on the TG Wire. Basically he said it is a MSV, the rule about illegally acquired ammo doesn't apply, and "Any targets hit with "retrieved ammo" count."

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

confusion... and Yep... the rule should go away

 

Rance

Thinkin' illegally acquired ammo.. and it still counts as a hit?

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

confusion... and Yep... the rule should go away

 

Rance

Thinkin' illegally acquired ammo.. and it still counts as a hit?

Hi Rance,

 

The rule about illegally acquired ammo says "The penalty for using "illegally acquired" ammunition (i.e. NOT carried to the line/staged by the shooter in an approved manner) will be a PROCEDURAL. Any targets hit using that ammo will be scored as MISSES. NO adjustments will be made to the stage raw time."

 

The rule that applies here was quoted by Ramrod in post 5. This thread is specifically about a dropped round not an illegally acquired round (such as someone handing the shooter SG rounds when he/she runs out).

 

Regards,

 

Allie

 

PS I'm in the camp that hopes the dropped round rule will go away in December and we will only be concerned when the 170 is broken.