Placed Round, or Dropped Round - Make the call

[Dang It Dan 13202]

Yea, and I taint down there to quide them....ehehehe

 

pbcc

 

Yes, we have learned so much from CC......like how to dress if we are trying to attract a peacock of the opposite sex.

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

Yes, we have learned so much from CC......like how to dress if we are trying to attract a peacock of the opposite sex.

 

Finally, I can share of my life on the farm knowledge I gained from FFA 20 years ago.The opposite sex of a peacock is a peahen, both being part of what is commonly known as peafowl.

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

Advice to shooter: NEXT TIME, with the off hand, cover the gun's ejection area while shaking the round loose, so the freed round ends up not ejected, but transferred to your hand, and you can re-use it. Do not let it get free.

[Anvil Al #59168]

I see it as while most are doing all that stuff to try and save that round and then reload it.

 

They could get rid of it. Grab one from where they are use to doing reloads from faster anyway.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Yes, we have learned so much from CC......like how to dress if we are trying to attract a peacock of the opposite sex.

 

 

Even out of sheer boredom, ole Dang It Dan can still crack a goodurn.

 

If ya can't Crack a goodurn, you can't be a member of the Crack'er Crew! (I made that up meself)

 

Ifn ya can't take a yoke, don't eat eggs for breakfast!

 

 

..........NimbleSOB

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

Well, at least I wuz able to larn them boys something!!!

 

TWSHKPBCCCKPOPJGFDLPR

[Wyatt]

Well, at least I wuz able to larn them boys something!!!

 

TWSHKPBCCCKPOPJGFDLPR

 

What was it......I forget.........Oh yea........Dying ain't much of a living boy

[Cowboy Junky]

To me a "dropped" or ejected round is one that was out of the shooters control. Turning the rifle over and clearing it intentionally is grey and I can see why this has gone on so long.

 

Pulling a stove piped round out and reusing wouldn't be an issue IMO because you had control (just as we see 97 shooter's do in every match......or every stage sometimes).

 

In this case the controlled ejection the shooter intentionally cleared the gun BUT the round DID leave his hand so I would have to go with Dan on this one. IF he had done a controlled ejection into his hand (does that sound bad!?) then the round would have been in his control and I wouldn't have called anything....right or wrong....that's what I would have don at the time.

 

Junky who never turns down a fun & education debate with two fine folks for FLA.

[Guest Winchester Jack, SASS #70195]

Stan, the example given in ROI bullet point #24 addresses the issue. Last sentence bottom of page 19, continued on top of page 20:

"Once the dropped round leaves the shooter's hand or control, it is considered to be a dead round."

 

So, IF the shooter were to remove the round directly from the rifle into their hand it could be re-used without penalty. But I doubt that would normally occur.

I've done it, once. The round stovepiped, I reached up and pulled the round out, closed the action and loaded the round through the loading gate.

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

To me a "dropped" or ejected round is one that was out of the shooters control. Turning the rifle over and clearing it intentionally is grey and I can see why this has gone on so long.

 

Pulling a stove piped round out and reusing wouldn't be an issue IMO because you had control (just as we see 97 shooter's do in every match......or every stage sometimes).

 

In this case the controlled ejection the shooter intentionally cleared the gun BUT the round DID leave his hand so I would have to go with Dan on this one. IF he had done a controlled ejection into his hand (does that sound bad!?) then the round would have been in his control and I wouldn't have called anything....right or wrong....that's what I would have don at the time.

 

Junky who never turns down a fun & education debate with two fine folks for FLA.

Where does "having control" come into play when we are talking about an ejected round.....in the rules as they are now?

 

Stan

[Marauder SASS #13056]

So, you can eject it and let it fall an inch or so into your hand, but not an inch or so from a nice big table....

 

I agree, the rule is unneeded. If you can Safely retrieve the round, it is not problem I vote for a change back to the goold ol days on this one.

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

So, you can eject it and let it fall an inch or so into your hand, but not an inch or so from a nice big table....

 

I agree, the rule is unneeded. If you can Safely retrieve the round, it is not problem I vote for a change back to the goold ol days on this one.

+1

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

IMO

 

An EJECTED round is one that leaves the ACTION (i.e. the entire confines of the firearm) by mechanical means.

An EXTRACTED round is one that leaves the chamber but remains in the action (i.e. stove pipe or incomplete ejection).

 

The moment an EJECTED round leaves contact with the shooter or the firearm, that round is "Out of the control" of the shooter and may not be reused.

 

The EXTRACTED round that has to be manually removed from the firearm AND remains in contact with the firearm or shooter remains live until they properly stage it, reuse it OR discard it.

 

I don't think the distance argument holds up because I don't believe many are rolling rounds from Marlin carrier to hand or 97 shell to hand with anywhere near inches of separation and even if so..

 

Ejection port to hand is going from controlled situation to controlled situation.

Ejection port to table is going from controlled to uncontrolled.

[Cowboy Junky]

Where does "having control" come into play when we are talking about an ejected round.....in the rules as they are now?

 

Stan

You are exactly right.....it doesn't and the rules should be more clear. What I'm saying is IF the round never leaves your hand it can't be dropped........that's pretty clear and not your point,

 

But I'm also "guessing" they added ejected to keep people from picking up rounds "ejected" from the gun to the ground, table etc and then retrieved and shot. I would "think" that that would mean any round that cleared the gun under proper usage or normal ejection and then was out of the shooters control……ie hit the ground table etc.

 

So clearing a round with your hand that is jammed, stove piped, etc was not ejected and out of the shooters control so I wouldn't call it as the rules stand.

 

But turning the gun over and letting the round fall out to the table ground etc is intentionally dropping it to me.

 

The problem is that is my interpretation and that's the bigger issue (and your point) because it will vary. Don’t get me wrong…….I like the idea of letting the people pick up rounds and letting the rules in place dictate the outcome (I think)……..but playing devil’s advocate and spending time behind a timer imagining some folks trying to retrieve ammo off the ground with a loaded gun under pressure is pretty scary as well…….because all kinds of things can happen if we open that door. Because then you are not just limiting it to picking a round up off a table......its a whole new can-o-worms.

 

Example a 97 shooter loads one in the chamber goes to do an “Evil Roy” load (for a popper) and drops the round. The 97 is loaded hammer back and he is crawling around trying to pick up that shell………it shouldn’t happen…….but it probably will. Also people losing count and throwing rounds out of the rifle could be a big issue. Lever closed, hammer back (on a live round) while they hunt around looking for a live round on the table or ground.

 

So maybe the rules should be clearer but at the same time letting people pick up ammo might not be the right call either. What do you think? And all the others that are sure to pile on.......lol

[Cowboy Junky]

IMO

 

An EJECTED round is one that leaves the ACTION (i.e. the entire confines of the firearm) by mechanical means.

An EXTRACTED round is one that leaves the chamber but remains in the action (i.e. stove pipe or incomplete ejection).

 

The moment an EJECTED round leaves contact with the shooter or the firearm, that round is "Out of the control" of the shooter and may not be reused.

 

The EXTRACTED round that has to be manually removed from the firearm AND remains in contact with the firearm or shooter remains live until they properly stage it, reuse it OR discard it.

 

I don't think the distance argument holds up because I don't believe many are rolling rounds from Marlin carrier to hand or 97 shell to hand with anywhere near inches of separation and even if so..

 

Ejection port to hand is going from controlled situation to controlled situation.

Ejection port to table is going from controlled to uncontrolled.

You said it better than me........that's what I was "trying" to say.......thanks.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Junky, we all understood it for over 20 years before they added the rule about picking up dropped ammo. SO if it fell on a table, hay bale etc where it was easily reachable, we picked it up and used it. I don't think I ever saw anyone pick it up from the ground as that would have been too awkward, but it still could be done safely. And if it wasn't done safely, we had a rule for that..

 

That rule was added about the same time as we added double jeopardy on misses and procedures - probably instituted by some folks with the same mentality. It too a few years and MANY pages of added rules to address the mistake of mixing procedures and misses.

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

I have read the posts regarding the OP and I certainly see both views. However, in my mind’s vision of event I see the shooter intentionally ejected round so as to retrieve it thus I stand firm on how I as a TO would have called it…right or wrong. As I followed posts I found that perhaps SFRS saw it as I also, at least we would have made same call. Some would argue that this is what is wrong with things today; TOs do not make the call the same throughout the CAS world. Maybe, but it is never going to be the same in ALL situations. I may extend BOD (as example) on a call to a limit the next TO does not, it happens. I do believe this shooter in question, assuming ejection/pickup was intentional, would have been, as A Al mentions, much faster to have gone to belt for another round but he did not.

CJ mentions the possibility of safety issues rising if the current “dropped round” rule goes away. Good point, but IMO this is a rule we have that already has a penalty for safety violation. If 170 is broken or sweep occurs then whammo, DQ. If “dropped round” rule goes away then the safety violation is still there for the need.

Good sound arguments on a couple of issues in this thread. As for the current “dropped round” rule, I, as Stan, Marauder, and some others, would like to see it go away. If for no other reason, to see a rule come off books.

 

 

edit**** Marauder guess you and I were thinking the same thing. You were faster than I. While I was composing, you were posting. Dern, lost another stage to a faster shooter. ha

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

So what is the simple conclusion of three pages on a simple issue that comes up often?

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

It's pretty simple really.....we have rules in place concerning safe gun handling...right? Why not let those rules do what they are supposed to do and let's remove an unnecessary layer of supposed "safety".......

 

97 is loaded with the hammer back....If the shooter is crawling around trying to get a dropped round then it would sound like they have moved with a cocked firearm.....there is a penalty for that.

 

Shooter reaches for a dropped round and breaks the 170.....there is a penalty for that.

 

Typically a shooter is only going to attempt to retrieve a round that is easily accessible....ie it's in their line of sight at the time and can reached without to much effort.....that's why it's so tempting to retrieve in the first place.

 

IF someone tries to retrieve a dropped round and they break an existing safety rule then they have just earned a penalty.

 

I'm not sure I understand why we have a rule in place to keep people from POSSIBLY breaking another rule.

 

Just showing up at the range and participating makes it POSSIBLE for someone to break the a safety rule but we keep doing it every month.

 

Stan

[Griff]

Before we all rush off and vote to eliminate this rule, think about this scenario for a moment...

 

Big ol' full-growed Fred comes up to the line and begins shootin' his 24" barreled rifle... in his haste, he double strokes its and ejects one unfired round in the air... with his strength, agility and grace he lets go of the forend and snags that errant round out of the air, feeds it back into the rifle and continues on his merry way... at the end of his shooting string his pards congratulate him on his prowess and mastery of the rifle.

 

A couple of shooters back at the loading table is Fred's grandson, who loves his grandpa, thinks he walks on water, is second only to God here on this earth. Lil' Fred III is 4'6", 89 lbs soakin' wet, but unlike his Grandpa, not quite able to do a snatch and jerk with VW Beetles quite yet. Whereas the successful attempt of Fred is heralded, do we really want Fred III attempting this at all.

 

Let me ask, can your male pride forego making a snatch out of the air, proving that you can control the muzzle of your long gun, so that we don't encourage the emulation of same by folks that are more than likely not able make such a successful attempt?

 

That was the reasoning I was given behind this rule when it was made many years ago. Have circumstances changed? I think not, just that none of you were around when just such a thing happened.

[J-BAR #18287]

Before we all rush off and vote to eliminate this rule, think about this scenario for a moment...

 

Big ol' full-growed Fred comes up to the line and begins shootin' his 24" barreled rifle... in his haste, he double strokes its and ejects one unfired round in the air... with his strength, agility and grace he lets go of the forend and snags that errant round out of the air, feeds it back into the rifle and continues on his merry way... at the end of his shooting string his pards congratulate him on his prowess and mastery of the rifle.

 

A couple of shooters back at the loading table is Fred's grandson, who loves his grandpa, thinks he walks on water, is second only to God here on this earth. Lil' Fred III is 4'6", 89 lbs soakin' wet, but unlike his Grandpa, not quite able to do a snatch and jerk with VW Beetles quite yet. Whereas the successful attempt of Fred is heralded, do we really want Fred III attempting this at all.

 

Let me ask, can your male pride forego making a snatch out of the air, proving that you can control the muzzle of your long gun, so that we don't encourage the emulation of same by folks that are more than likely not able make such a successful attempt?

 

That was the reasoning I was given behind this rule when it was made many years ago. Have circumstances changed? I think not, just that none of you were around when just such a thing happened.

 

 

Ah ha, the "If it saves just one child" philosophy...

 

(Sorry Griff, couldn't resist! )

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

What I draw on the move just fine and my son tries to do the same thing and fails?

 

Does that mean we should outlaw drawing on the move?

 

If so then we need to outlaw a whole bunch of stuff because I have seen the safety rules get broken.......better yet we best stay home and avoid any POSSIBLY rule violations........

 

Stan

[Dang It Dan 13202]

Before we all rush off and vote to eliminate this rule, think about this scenario for a moment...

 

Big ol' full-growed Fred comes up to the line and begins shootin' his 24" barreled rifle... in his haste, he double strokes its and ejects one unfired round in the air... with his strength, agility and grace he lets go of the forend and snags that errant round out of the air, feeds it back into the rifle and continues on his merry way... at the end of his shooting string his pards congratulate him on his prowess and mastery of the rifle.

 

A couple of shooters back at the loading table is Fred's grandson, who loves his grandpa, thinks he walks on water, is second only to God here on this earth. Lil' Fred III is 4'6", 89 lbs soakin' wet, but unlike his Grandpa, not quite able to do a snatch and jerk with VW Beetles quite yet. Whereas the successful attempt of Fred is heralded, do we really want Fred III attempting this at all.

 

Let me ask, can your male pride forego making a snatch out of the air, proving that you can control the muzzle of your long gun, so that we don't encourage the emulation of same by folks that are more than likely not able make such a successful attempt?

 

That was the reasoning I was given behind this rule when it was made many years ago. Have circumstances changed? I think not, just that none of you were around when just such a thing happened.

 

Griff,

 

If Fred III attempts the "mid-air grab" and breaks the 170 or actually drops his gun he gets a penalty. Chances are he won't do that again any time soon.

 

We can't start considering what folks might do 'cause we would never take the guns out of the cases. It's prudent to take into consideration a likely occurrence, but we can't cover all the "what-if's", it's just not possible.

 

This rule needs to go.

[Griff]

Didn't ever say I agreed with the rule... just 'splainin' how & why it came to be. I'd DQ Fred in a heartbeat, and never feel all that bad... Fred III, I'd feel bad about it.

 

I think twirlin' my sixgun as it gets reholstered is a neat and cool thing to do... but it's against the rules because of the "what if" and "might could happen" line of thinkin' also. Same with the requirement that a double shotgun has to be carried with the muzzles up and broken open... two, sometimes, mutually exclusive conditions. How many safety rules will there be left if we eliminate all the ones that germinated from that idea?

[Joe LaFives #5481]

Junky, we all understood it for over 20 years before they added the rule about picking up dropped ammo. SO if it fell on a table, hay bale etc where it was easily reachable, we picked it up and used it. I don't think I ever saw anyone pick it up from the ground as that would have been too awkward, but it still could be done safely. And if it wasn't done safely, we had a rule for that..

 

That rule was added about the same time as we added double jeopardy on misses and procedures - probably instituted by some folks with the same mentality. It too a few years and MANY pages of added rules to address the mistake of mixing procedures and misses.

Marauder - the Dropped ammo rule has been around at least since 1996. I still have my 1996 handbook and it's there clear as day on page 17

[Boon Doggle]

Did anyone ever consider that carrying a couple of spare rounds on their person, in accordance with the Rule Book, would elevate the problem of picking up, plucking out, or catching ejected rounds out of the air, completely. Come on guys, this is why we have them silly little loops on our gun belts.

 

 

IMNSHO:

SASS is starting to have so many contradicting rules that clubs will have to have an attorney present at all annual and above matches.

 

 

PREDICTION:

This thread will go on for at least five pages.

[Most Wanted]

I agree with Dan on the call . I agree with Stan, Dan and anyone else who thinks the rule should go. But lets all agree that POST 64 is spot on. Until these threads turn to actions its all moot. Love the game , hate the book.

[Captain Bill Burt]

Since the TGs have voted and the dropped ammo rule is still with us I'm reviving this thread hoping for a little more definitive answer. Part of what was addressed here was the issue of whether hitting a target with a dropped round which was subsequently retrieved (illegally) counts as a hit. BTW, I don't like the rule, but if we're going to have it shouldn't we use it, with all its ramifications, correctly? The following doesn't make sense to me.

 

From the shooters handbook page.....23

 

24. Ammunition dropped by a shooter in the course of reloading any firearm during a stage or “ejected” from any firearm is considered “dead” and may not be recovered until the shooter completes the course of fire. The round must be replaced from the shooter’s person or other area as required by stage description or if the round is not fired it is counted as a missed shot. Staged ammunition dropped back where it was staged is not considered “dead.”

 

This particular round was not "ejected" by levering the gun. The lever was already OPEN (never seen a stove pipe without the rifle being open) and the gun was rolled over.........nor was it a reload.......

 

 

What if the shooter had rolled it over into his hand?

 

Stan

 

P.S. Quite some time ago it was made VERY clear to me by PWB and several TG's that if a round was stove piped and the shooter reached up and grabbed the round that it could be reused......hmmm......how different is this?....it really boils down to the definition of ejected and that I can't find in the glossary of terms.

 

If it's considered dead and may not be recovered then how can anything hit with it count? Does the illegal act of retrieving make it live? If not then it's still dead and can't be used without a penalty. The MSV is for retrieving it, not using it, as has been clearly stated previously. So what is the penalty for actually using this 'dead' round which 'must be replaced from the shooters body or other area as required by stage directions'?

 

No penalty..... hummm?? Seems like it might be the same as using "Illegally acquired ammo"?

 

Snakebite

Exactly. It seems the rules may be interpreted incorrectly in order to lessen the effect of a 'bad' rule.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Bill,

 

I have heard many times that it is just a minor safety.

 

The only rule where you get a P and misses is the illegally acquired ammo rule.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

PS It is so good to see you posting again!

[Captain Bill Burt]

Thanks Allie! I've 'heard' that too, but I've seen nothing definitive. This exact scenario has come up at least three separate times while I was TOing and I've seen it administered both ways, hence I would like a definitive ruling. I understand the motivation for what we've 'heard', but I think the english language is being twisted a bit to get the desired result. How can an illegal action cause a 'dead' round to become 'live' and eligible for use? If the MSV is for retrieval, then using a dead round carries no penalty, which makes no sense to me. Especially since the rule clearly states the lost round 'must' be replaced legally.

 

It seems to me that as the rule is written a penalty should follow for using the round, or a rewrite is in order to clarify things.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

That would be the unwritten "Lazarus Rule"...once the shooter retrieves the dropped/ejected round (incurring a MSV whether it is used or not), the round is "back in play" and HITS (or misses) with the retrieved round count.

 

This is often confused with the "use of illegally acquired ammo" rule in which the ammo was brought to the line in an unapproved manner (e.g. in a hat band, secured bandolier, up the shooter's nose, or on the belt of the T/O).

THAT penalty includes a procedural for the acquisition & use...PLUS any shots that hit targets with ammo so acquired are counted as misses.

[Captain Bill Burt]

There's my ruling. Thanks!

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

I'll see about getting that edited into the Jan 2014 version of the rules.

[Captain Bill Burt]

Thanks, glad to see you're doing better and back in the game.

[backshootin beauford mcgee]

sounds like a drop to me.......placing needs to involve the hands!