Smokeless vs. Black powder why?

[Sublimity Sam]

Hi from a newbie,

 

Very new to CAS, not so new to reloading, but real cornfused to say the least. Have load up lots of rifle and pistol rounds using smokeless powder. Shot lots of black powder rifles, but never gave much thought to using black powder in smokeless cartridges. Would someone please give me a quick tutorial on using black powder in 45 colt rounds for SAS and why.

 

Thanks in advance pards.

 

ps. changed my handle from Saint Irish to "Sublimity Sam" on account of we are moving to Sublimity Oregon next spring.

[Jack Houston # 35508]

http://www.curtrich.com/bpsubsdummies.html

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Not an expert, but you just load up the regular Black Powder - 2FG is often used to fill the case, then put a bullet lubed with non-petroleum lube on top of it. Most petroleum lubes get very messy with BP.

 

But there is plenty of good guidance on the web and from Black Powder makers to learn specifics.

 

It is much more simple than smokeless powder. In fact, when smokeless was introduces almost no one reloaded with it because it was such a mystery and too hard t know what pressures it would create. Took many years before they tested and published smokeless loads so normal folk could have data to safely load it. Where as practically every rifleman in the BP days prefer reloads - for almost 20 years, essentially no one reloaded with smokeless powders - just bought factory loaded rounds. Surprised me to learn that fact.

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

Howdy Sam, why BP?? because it's there Real BP is the one true powder And smokeless is just a passing fad. Plus clean up is so easy and no carbon build up. Best to use a bullet designed for BP with the proper lube. Fill case with enough BP so when you seat the bullet it compresses the powder 1/16"-1/8", leaving no air space. To learn more check out the the "Darksider's Den" with the "Dark Arts" at CAS City. Aslo the "Dark Side" and "BP Reference Library" at the Open Range. Good Luck

Darksider's Den

Dark Arts

Photo Illustration of Powder Compression

Dark Side

BP Reference Library

 

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Trueno del Diablo, SASS#22364L]

but never gave much thought to using black powder in smokeless cartridges. Would someone please give me a quick tutorial on using black powder in 45 colt rounds for SAS and why.

 

You've got it backwards. 45 Colt is a blackpowder cartridge that somebody decided to load smokeless in.

[Tom Bullweed]

FFg loaded so that you get about 1/16" compression. I like Winchester WLP primers, but some use magnum primers. 185-200 grain bullets work fine for hitting plates at 10 yards, but some shooters use heavier bullets. I moved from .45 Colt brass to .45 Cowboy specials (Long Colts cut down to .898" to match acp brass) for my pistols, but some shooters find the Schofield brass also very acceptable. I also use bp-subs due to availability in my area.

 

Why - Smokeless powders were not used in the USA until the mid-1890's. Blackpowder in brass cartridges was the only option through almost all of the 'western' times. There is a reason that the program was called Gunsmoke even though they used smokeless powder in their blanks. Cartridges like the .32WCF, .38WCF, .40WCF (aka .32-20, .38-40 and .44-40), .45 Colt and Schofield, .45-70 and even .22 rimfire that are all available today in smokeless started life with BP. Winchester offered the 1894 first in two old BP loads (.32-40 and .38-55), then in two smokeless loads in 1895 (.30-30 and .25-35) and finally in the .32 WS in 1902 since it could be loaded with BP or smokeless loads. The changeover was not easy.

 

Also, just watch and talk to any BP shooters at your local matches. Some are good, some are okay, but all are maximizing the authenticity and the fun-level of CAS. Standing in a train prop or outhouse and having a cloud of smoke around us and flames coming from the SXS muzzles makes any cleanup and reloading challenges worth the extra effort.

[Rye Miles #13621]

I can only answer to the "WHY" black powder.

 

 

'Cause it's more fun!!!

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

I real BP - and I LOVE shooting 45 Colt with it....BOOM and FLAME

GG ~

[Lou Graham, # 26112]

BP cartridge ammo is a HOOT, that's why we do it! I like the round sound of the BOOM and the smoke and the smell and most especially, the flames!

 

Now, if you want to become a Soot Brother, we would love to have you. You can get bullets lubed for BP and use real BP or you can use the smokeless bullets with a subsitute powder like 777 or APP. The subs smell different and you don't get good flames, but they make plenty of smoke, which is all we care about.

 

I learned to reload making smokeless ammo. It's nerve-wracking, tense and picky. Weighing and checking and verifying and checking again........

 

BP ammo is easy to make. Once you get set up, when the case comes around to put on the bullet, it's either full or it ain't. You can see it. Easy. No stress.

 

When it comes time to clean the guns, I would much rather clean BP guns than smokeless ones.

 

So, it's less stress to make the ammo, more fun to shoot it and less nasty to clean up. Good deal from start to finish.

[August West, SASS #45079]

You've got it backwards. 45 Colt is a blackpowder cartridge that somebody decided to load smokeless in.

 

+1

[Virgil Ray Hality, SASS# 37355]

Why? Because I find black powder in cartridges to be way more interesting than smokeless!

[Box Herder, SASS 73857]

44 WCF plus Goex 2F- push a Big Lube bullet on top- let her fly.

 

It is the true cowboy way dammmit!

 

It is always a posse pleaser- just ask the cowboy & girls I shot with today.

 

Easy clean up- water and a little ballistol-

 

Ready for the next day.

 

AND wait to you get to the 70 grain shotgun loads!

 

See you soon & keep the smoke & fire coming-

[Old Scatterbrain]

Not to pick a fight, but as far as cleanup, I may have to pack up and move to Jefferson City. I once owned an 1851 and two 1860 knockoffs, and I ended up giving them away due to the cleaning and other issues. By the time I got halfway through the second cylinder I could barely cock the gun due to all the crud built up around the cylinder. I also made the mistake of not cleaning one of the 1860's for about 3 days, and after I did clean it the bore looked like the inside of an old waterpipe.

I can shoot hundreds of rounds of smokeless over several months without cleaning, if necessary. The occasional drop of oil here and there keeps things humming along.

[The Shoer 27979]

Not to pick a fight, but as far as cleanup, I may have to pack up and move to Jefferson City. I once owned an 1851 and two 1860 knockoffs, and I ended up giving them away due to the cleaning and other issues. By the time I got halfway through the second cylinder I could barely cock the gun due to all the crud built up around the cylinder. I also made the mistake of not cleaning one of the 1860's for about 3 days, and after I did clean it the bore looked like the inside of an old waterpipe.

I can shoot hundreds of rounds of smokeless over several months without cleaning, if necessary. The occasional drop of oil here and there keeps things humming along.

Old Scatterbrain I have purposely not cleaned my guns for 3 months for a total of 8 matches shooting nothing but black powder just to see if I could do it and never had a problem. If your guns were binding up after 2 cylinders it sounds like you didn't have enough or any lube when you were shooting them. Oh ya when I did clean my guns after 3 months all I used was soap and Hot water

[Pee Wee #15785]

You need big lubed bullets with black powder lube or a lube cookie behind the bullet. You can use 777 and any lubed bullet with either smokeless lube or BP lube. It shoots a bit hotter than real BP. I use FFFg Goex for all pistol caliber rounds. For long range rifles I use FFg Goex or 1 1/2 Swiss. Once you get started you may want to get you a pair of .44-40's, they are bottle nicked and load and shoot BP better in my mind. You can load just as much powder and shoot a lighter bullet. They all clean up with soap and water.

[Old Scatterbrain]

Old Scatterbrain I have purposely not cleaned my guns for 3 months for a total of 8 matches shooting nothing but black powder just to see if I could do it and never had a problem. If your guns were binding up after 2 cylinders it sounds like you didn't have enough or any lube when you were shooting them. Oh ya when I did clean my guns after 3 months all I used was soap and Hot water

Come to think of it, there must be more to the story, because I still have a can of Goex, so this summer I loaded up a dozen cartridges. I fired them through one of my Vaqueros and had no problems, even though I used commercial cast bullets.

[Wylie Harp, #21158L]

I once read that there are only two kinds of shooters, "those who shoot with black powder and those who will"

 

Don't spend too much time with that smokee-less stuff, come to the darkside

 

~:Wylie:~

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Howdy

 

I was at the local gun club trying out some Black Powder rounds out of one of my lever guns a few years ago. I was having a good time blasting away with a magazine full of cartridges. A club member came up and said he had never seen anything like that. He had always assumed that muzzle loading single shots were the only guns that shot Black Powder.

 

Over the years, I have realized that many modern shooters are also laboring under that misconception. They do not realize that all through the 19th Century, ALL repeating firearms were shot with Black Powder. Look at any old cartridge with a large case. 45 Colt, 44-40, 38-40, any of the old WCF cartridges. Even 38 Special. They all were originally loaded with Black Powder. That's why the cases are so big. Pound for pound, Black Powder does not have as much explosive energy as modern Smokeless powders. So the cases had to be big to pack in enough powder for a reliable man stopping load. Compare the size of the 45 Colt cartridge to the 45ACP. The 45ACP was designed for Smokeless, it did not need as much case capacity to fit in enough powder for a man stopping load.

 

That's why many of us shoot Black Powder. Because we shoot cartridges that were originally designed as Black Powder cartridges. And because it is way more fun than Smokeless.

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

As far as "why" shoot blackpowder cartridges in SASS, you just have to give it a try and see how you like it. You may have to try it for a while until you get the bugs worked out, before you decide you want to stick with it.

 

Today, I went to a buddies house with 6 or 7 others and we shot on their property. Half of them have shot with me before and tried my cowboy guns and for the others it was the first time. They all shot my 45 Colt USFA Rodeo with blackpowder 250 gr bullets, Marlin 44-40 with smokeless and blackpowder and my Rossi hammered coachgun with blackpowder. I also had my Marlin 45-70 with smokeless 405 gr. loads. They all had fun and a couple of them absolutley loved the lever actions. I've smoothed out my 44-40 pretty good but my 45-70 is completely stock. Two of them in particular really noticed the difference between shooting smokeless and bp, the recoil and sound. Most typical shooters who haven't been around SASS have never had the chance to shoot real blackpowder so I alway enjoy letting people have a try. Smokin Gator

[Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655]

Being a rather cheap guy I use smokeless with a charge in the 5 grain range. 1400 rounds per pound @ 18.00 a pound for powder.

Loading a 30 grain BP load 233 rounds at $15.00 a pound for powder. This is not to say BP cannot be or is not fun, just costs more.

 

May actually get sucked over to the dark side, and do plan to shoot plainsman side match at wr.

 

Also am working on finding a good long range BP load for 45/70 that my rifles like.

[Sublimity Sam]

WOW!! so many replies with great information and encouragement. I will start asap to bone up on BP reloading procedures and requirements. I've got a thousand 180 grain RNFT bullets on order from 2nd Chance Bullet Co. but I don't think they have a special lube for BP. I'll have to call the guys there and find out more about them. Sounds like Bp is more fun as well as historically correct. It's also fun to hear from folks all over the country. Wish I would have gotten involved when I lived in Las Vegas, probably would have made living there a lot more fun, and Trueno Del Diablo, we'll have to talk when we get moved to Oregon next spring, I love to bird hunt and fish for walleye. Thanks again to everyone, see ya on the trail.

[Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655]

A few weeks ago I did a little testing with BP in 45 Colt and 44 Mag.

Had some 44 cal 245 grain SWC Billy bullets Moly Coated with a Large Grease groove. Tried pan lubing, we are talking an abject failure. Put bullets too close together need to be about 1/2 inch of space between. I digress ended up hand lubing. Tested these as well as Despardo 205 Grain Roundnose flat points from my om Vaquero and model 92 rossi 20 inch barrel. No hard fouling. Had some Bear Creek bullets, moly coated with no grease groove. Tested these with BP using a lube cookie and a homemade wonder wad, again no had fouling and ok accuracy.

Tested the Bear Creek bullets in my 45 Handi CR again decent accuracy and no hard fouling. Did not bother testing in my RNV 45 Colt revolvers. My theory is if there is enough lube for a 20 inch or longer rifle barrel, there will be more than enough for a 7.5 in or shorter pistol barrel.

 

Conventional wisdom is moly and BP dont mix, but in my case at least given sufficient BP lube either on or behind the bullet they work ok.

 

For SASS, there is no real magic associated with BP loading for pistol calibers, essentially fill case with powder or powder with filler on top (I use walnut media, lots of folks use grits, cream of wheat, and other materials - do your research) filling the case enough that seating the bullet will compress load about 1/16 inch. Compression stops migration between BP and Filler.

 

Loading for long range with BP presents challenges. Need bullet sized .001 or .002 larger than groove diameter. Bullet must be in the proper weight and length range for your rifle's twist rate. Helps a lot to have a compression die and plug to dial in the amount of compression your rifle likes with a given powder. Then there are the wads to use, lubes, and all manner of other voodoo. Challenging but yet fun.

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

My wife never quite completly understood why I shoot black powder.

 

Then, last night, we were wrapping up a practice session at dusk. I had been coaching her and helping my son shoot much of the afternoon.

 

My wife was finally out of rounds, but I loaded up my '73 with 10 full house BP loads (ffg Goex) and told her that she needed to try something.

 

In the low light setting, that gun belched and breathed a real nice fireball.

 

My son was cheering loudly as the flames lit up the early evening sky after each shot.

 

Afterwards, she replied, "that was cool."

 

Don't get me wrong, she still loves her smokeless and won't be switching to BP any time soon, but I think that she now understands why I shoot holy black.

[Fairshake]

Lou, You have been on the Dark Side long enough to know that we don't just shoot the "Real "Black Powder" for the smoke only. I first started with a pair of C&B's in 1970. After that first round of 44 ball and the sound, sparks, and flames and yes the smoke I was hooked for life.

When I joined SASS there was no doubt on what I was going to shoot. Frontier Cartridge all the way!! For you new comers, let me say this,if you have a gamer mind set and want to beat those fast shooting guys you see at the matches then the dark side is not for you.

Now I have seen some shooters who profess to shooting BP in Frontier Cartridge class that are gamers. They shoot such light loads that you have to strain to see the smoke and there is no recoil when the round goes off. This is not what the class was meant to be. I think that if you are trying to be a cowboy of that period and your load does not produce a recoil of your revolver then you are only kidding yourself. There is one thing that beats being first at any match. That is shooting authentic BP loads in all your guns that are loaded to the same level of the time period and knowing that you are doing the same thing that was done over 120 years ago.

You may not win but most all the other cowboys there will have respect for you and you will have a big grin on your face. Later Fairshake

[Slowhand Bob, 24229]

I really think the easy solution to prevent this mental delima for you is to just stay away from the bp cartridges altogether. Lets face it, bp cartridge was not for everyone and two of the best and most famous of all made their bones with the cap and ball pistols, Wild Bill and Wesley Hardin. Get yoreself a pair of them 1860 Armies and leave the bp cartridges to us more modern sissies! If I got the straight and skinny of it, bp cartridges had actually been available in the US for over a decade before the .45 Colt made its much ballyhooed début. Not sure which were the first common metallic cartridge firearms but I do think the .44 Henry and S&W.22 rimfires were there in the early CW years.

[Sergeant Smokepole #29248L]

Loading The Holy Black has nothing to do with economics. It's all about The BOOM!!! and The GRIN!!!!

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

If I got the straight and skinny of it, bp cartridges had actually been available in the US for over a decade before the .45 Colt made its much ballyhooed début. Not sure which were the first common metallic cartridge firearms but I do think the .44 Henry and S&W.22 rimfires were there in the early CW years.

 

Howdy

 

When Smith and Wesson produced their first revolver in 1857 it was chambered for what eventually became known as the 22 Short. It was a Black Powder cartridge.

 

S&W No 1

 

The 22 rimfire had been invented a few years earlier by a Frenchman named Flobert. Because they controlled the rights to the White patent for revolvers with chambers bored through to accept cartridges, S&W produced the ONLY cartridge revolvers in the US until the patent expired in 1869 or 1870. There were some patent violations, but S&W were vigorous about chasing them down and putting them out of business.

 

At this time there were many, many different types of cartridges being developed. The designs did not shake themselves out to today's rimfires and centerfires for a few decades.

 

The Henry's predecessor the Volcanic rifle used a type of cartridge, but it was not a conventional cartridge as we know it. It was basically a hollow bullet filled with powder with a little bit of foil and a primer over the back. When the Henry rifle was under development, B F Henry originally came up with a 38 caliber rimfire round for it. Oliver Winchester, who by now controlled the company, told him to go back to the drawing board and come up with a 44 caliber rimfire round, based partially on the failure of the old Volcanic 'rocketball' ammo.

 

There were also pin fires, teat fires, and probably a couple of other designs that I have forgotten.

 

The Maynard cartridge was very unusual. It carried no primer at all. Instead there was a tiny hole at the rear of the cartridge. The flame from either a percussion cap under the hammer, or from Maynard's tape primers found its way into the cartridge to set off the powder.

 

Maynard

 

Eventually, all these ideas fell to the wayside to be replace by just centerfire and rimfire ammo.

 

 

*****************

 

 

As far as cost is concerned, yes there is no question that it is much more expensive to shoot Black Powder than Smokeless. Yes, 30 or so grains of FFg costs considerably more than 5 grains or so of any Smokeless powder. Those of us who shoot Black Powder in our cartridges recognize that fact. We use special bullets, we spend more on powder, we have to clean more often, and we have to contend with targets that are difficult to see. Black Powder is definitely not for everyone. You need some dedication if you want to shoot Black Powder instead of Smokeless. That's just the way it is.

[Trueno del Diablo, SASS#22364L]

....Trueno Del Diablo, we'll have to talk when we get moved to Oregon next spring, I love to bird hunt and fish for walleye. Thanks again to everyone, see ya on the trail.

 

Can't help much with those bug eyed fish, but can point you in the right direction for bird hunting.

[Old Scatterbrain]

The Henry's predecessor the Volcanic rifle used a type of cartridge, but it was not a conventional cartridge as we know it. It was basically a hollow bullet filled with powder with a little bit of foil and a primer over the back.

Eventually, all these ideas fell to the wayside to be replace by just centerfire and rimfire ammo.

Sounds like caseless ammunition. What's old is new again, nothing new under the sun and so forth.

[SASS# 23321 Canelo Kid]

Shot many, many matches and thousands of rounds of .38 Spl with Triple 7 and Bear Creek Moly bullets before switching to .45 Colt, 250gr Big Lube Groove bullets, and a case full of 3F. I often went 10 or 12 stages during a two day match without cleaning or binding. Never had any problems with the moly coat using Triple 7 or real BP (and I used Elephant at that time). I'm sure you'll find temp. and humidity have a lot to do with with fouling problems. Smaller bores foul quicker, just like muzzle-loaders.

 

Out here in the desert where the humidity generally runs 10-15% and days are warm, fouling is lessened. Shooting where it's colder and more humid sends me for the Windex and Ballistol bottle a lot more often. I still clean all the guns after every match, and polish my '66, I like it shiny.

 

As for "Why", because I love it more than smokeless.

 

Safe trails,

CKid

[Sublimity Sam]

Looking forward to it. Thanks much

 

 

 

Can't help much with those bug eyed fish, but can point you in the right direction for bird hunting.

[Snydly Whiplash, SASS #16258]

Back in 96 when the wife and I started shooting SASS I was coached on what to do and they started me out shooting with both hands and smokeless powder. I have been shooting all my life but wanted to blend in with the people already involved so I went along with what they told me. It was such a hoot I could hardly wait till the next match. After a couple of years I was shooting with the top shooters here in Wy. but started to get a feeling that this was not quite as I had envisioned it when I was growing up watching Gunsmoke or Wanted Dead or Alive. It finally dawned on me 'They (all my western heroes)all shot with one hand'! So I switched to Duelist. For a couple more years I was in hog heaven but eventually found myself wanting something more,but I could not put my finger on it. One weekend the television had a "Western Weekend". All of my old favorite westerns were on. Most of them in Black and White. I almost sat in front of the TV the entire weekend. Then something happened, a revelation, the light bulb went on!!! They were shooting BLACK POWDER (blanks but still black powder)!! That was it for me. I switched immediately and started shooting Frontier Cartridge Duelist and have not looked back! Don't have that something missing feeling anymore! Just like all my heroes..I can relive those thrilling days of yesteryear, I am like a kid back so many years ago, only now I get to shoot real bullets with REAL POWDER...BLACK POWDER!!!!!!!!!! Yeeeee Hawwww!

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Sounds like caseless ammunition. What's old is new again, nothing new under the sun and so forth.

 

Vocanic Rocket Ball Ammunition

[Henry McKenna #700L]

Connecting with history is a huge part of the appeal of CAS for me and many others.

Thanks to SASS we have an excuse to aquire reproductions of cool cowboy guns, constuct BP ammo, wear period clothing and then take it all to the range and shoot.

Life is good.

[Dubious Don #56333]

http://www.curtrich.com/bpsubsdummies.html

 

What Jack said; great place to start.

 

BP isn't hard. Easier to clean, simple to load as long as you remember a few things. BP is loaded by VOLUME, not weight. Loads you see for BP are listed as VOLUME. On Capt. Baylor's site there is a conversion table for BP VOLUME to weight in grains. Basically, BP is loaded by filling the case to the base of the bullet, leaving no space as is common with smokeless. If you wish to use lighter charges, a filler of grits, cob or similar is necessary to ensure there is no space in the cartridge.

 

BP, real BP and Pyrodex will need SPG lube or similar. The crayon stuff that comes on smokeless bullets isn't enough. Or, use 777 and shoot bullets with smokeless lube.

 

Back to the volume thing; find the charge you need for your cartridge, take a case, fill with BP until the bullet just touches the powder when it is in the case where it will be crimped. Most cartridges, if you take a fired case the bullet will slide right on in. Add powder and set the bullet until it's the right length. Weigh that charge and now you can set your measure, etc and you have a "familiar" reference.

 

Most caution about using smokeless measures with BP because of static. Most measures are made of non-sparking materials anyway so that;s not an issue. Static discharges seems to be more myth than reality but.....

 

We're not talking Ford V Chevy here. BP is totally different. I like it because it's fun. Boom, smoke, challenge = fun.