Noz Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 Not to pick a fight, but as far as cleanup, I may have to pack up and move to Jefferson City. I once owned an 1851 and two 1860 knockoffs, and I ended up giving them away due to the cleaning and other issues. By the time I got halfway through the second cylinder I could barely cock the gun due to all the crud built up around the cylinder. I also made the mistake of not cleaning one of the 1860's for about 3 days, and after I did clean it the bore looked like the inside of an old waterpipe. I can shoot hundreds of rounds of smokeless over several months without cleaning, if necessary. The occasional drop of oil here and there keeps things humming along. Wish I had been around when you were giving them away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 Not to pick a fight, but as far as cleanup, I may have to pack up and move to Jefferson City. I once owned an 1851 and two 1860 knockoffs, and I ended up giving them away due to the cleaning and other issues. By the time I got halfway through the second cylinder I could barely cock the gun due to all the crud built up around the cylinder. I also made the mistake of not cleaning one of the 1860's for about 3 days, and after I did clean it the bore looked like the inside of an old waterpipe. I can shoot hundreds of rounds of smokeless over several months without cleaning, if necessary. The occasional drop of oil here and there keeps things humming along. Your shooting and cleaning technique needed some tweaking is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Scatterbrain Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 Your shooting and cleaning technique needed some tweaking is all. You're missing my point. I normally cleaned them thoroughly after shooting, and had no problems (in that area). The one time I was unable to clean them right away, the bore was damaged significantly. That doesn't happen with smokeless. As I said in my second post, there is more to the story, as I recently loaded some cartridges with blackpowder and had no problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairshake Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 I'm sorry to say this Dubious Don but I have to disagree with a lot of your post. The book written by a very well known SASS shooter is only written to tell others how he shoots. Any person who shoots black powder subs can't say they are shooting black powder. They are shooting a smokeless powder that has additives to produce smoke. They have no sparks, flames, nor the loud boom of "REAL BLACK POWDER". This is not to say you are not welcome to shoot what you want but you are not a BP shooter. That's no difference than saying you are a driver of a corvette while driving a Chevrolet BelAir with the Vette Emblems on the fenders. If you live anywhere in the CONUS you can receive all the BP that you may shoot via UPS or Fedex. I have shot matches with the Captain and had a long conversation as to why not shoot the real thing. He said he would have to drive over 20 miles to find the real thing. I drive 5 1/2 hours round trip to get mine at times. The next thing is yes because of the nature of the powder you may load it by filling the case but if you want more than SASS accuracy then you have to use several other tools. The main one is a scale as Black Powder of old was always loaded by "WEIGHT" This has been discussed many times over the years since a lot of new people came to shoot BP. I never heard the words of load by volume until the first sub hit the market. If you take time to read and look at all the original boxes of BP cartridges you will see loaded with 40 grains or 26 grains of powder. This tells you it was all done by weight. Find me one box of ammo that says these were loaded by volume. The reason for the wording is that all the subs being a smokeless powder are much more powerful than black powder. If you were to take the same amount of weight as the BP loads then you would blow up the gun. Where do you think the BP cartridges received the names that they are known for? I'm speaking of the 45-70, 45-90, 45-120, 44-40, 38-40,and so on. If you find a box of 45 Colt you will see where it says loaded with 40 grains of powder. We have all this misinformation going around about BP and it has become so bad that many people will not even purchase a gun that was fired with the real BP. Just as you inferred the static electricity thing. That has been debunked but the hard heads will not stop from saying the false hoods about it. Show me where it says that the battle lasted for days and we lost because all the guns were fouled and rusted from all the powder shot from them. One powder of the times was made so well that it stated on the can that no cleaning was needed until you were ready to fire it again. I have shot my guns for a match and not cleaned them for 5 days without the first problem. Try that with the subs and you will have a piece of rusted junk. If people would only take a little time to research information before passing it on. Take Care Fairshake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 The main one is a scale as Black Powder of old was always loaded by "WEIGHT" This has been discussed many times over the years since a lot of new people came to shoot BP. I never heard the words of load by volume until the first sub hit the market. If you take time to read and look at all the original boxes of BP cartridges you will see loaded with 40 grains or 26 grains of powder. This tells you it was all done by weight. I can't speak for BP of 150 years ago, but the weight-to-volume ratio of today's black powders vary by manufacturer. 40 grains of Goex is not the same volume measure as 40 grains of Scheutzen, Swiss, etc. One needs to pay attention to the volume. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefro, SASS#69420 Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 I can't speak for BP of 150 years ago, but the weight-to-volume ratio of today's black powders vary by manufacturer. 40 grains of Goex is not the same volume measure as 40 grains of Scheutzen, Swiss, etc. One needs to pay attention to the volume. I agree, this has been hashed out many times, but with todays BP one needs to look at volume also. One simple example is a 7/8oz shotgun load I shared with a couple of shooters. My load consisted of 47gr 2f. Both shooters PMed me back saying they could not keep the crimp closed on the shotgun hull with this load. I was using Scheutzen and they were using Goex. After I replied with the correct volume all was good again. The Goex took up much more volume as did than the same weight of Scheutzen. Same thing happens with .38 or .45. If you are looking for 1/16"-1/8" compression, the Goex weight will have to be reduced to make the same volume as Scheutzen. So for todays reloading for SASS and sharing loads I always use volume. Now for bullseye and silhouette shooters they may work up a load by weight for future reference. But it's all BP and all good. Good Luck Jefro Relax-Enjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655 Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 Would 64 Vette vs Stanley Steamer be an appropriate analogy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checotah Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 ....we'll have to talk when we get moved to Oregon next spring, I love to bird hunt and fish for walleye. Thanks again to everyone, see ya on the trail. Might wanna think about Steelhead instead of Walleyes... Orygun has some great Steelhead, Salmon, and Trout fishing, but don't know about them pike things... As far as the "why" questions about black powder, I'm just dabbling in it and wonder why folks shoot the Holy Black but step down to lighter bullets. I really like the .45 Colt with full case of FFFg and a 250 gr. bullet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hopalong Strong Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 I'm jumping in here because I am comtemplaiting shooting black or sub in my 45 colts. My 38s will stay smokeless but the belch of smoke and flame seems attractive. I load BP rifle cartridges with real black all the time in 45-70, 50-70, 11mm Mauser, 577, 577-450 and more. I have 777 and Goex Black. What will the differences be between these two black (and black like) powders? Can 777 be used in a progressive loader? (Lee 1000) I am sure Black cannot due the to the static risk. How about cleanup? I know how to clean my rifles with no problem after a match. How do pistols compare in their fussines? I can lube the bullets with my BP lube or my red carnuba smokeless lube, with 777 does it matter which one I use? Any thoughts would be much appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Shoer 27979 Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 Might wanna think about Steelhead instead of Walleyes... Orygun has some great Steelhead, Salmon, and Trout fishing, but don't know about them pike things... As far as the "why" questions about black powder, I'm just dabbling in it and wonder why folks shoot the Holy Black but step down to lighter bullets. I really like the .45 Colt with full case of FFFg and a 250 gr. bullet! I use a 200 grain bullet and a lower powder charges because I've injured both of my wrist a number of time over the years. with the lighter bullet and charges my wrist can handle the recoil with little to no problems Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 Most all of the folk posting here have it spot on. I like what Tom Bullweed had to say on the subject in particular and it was the only thing I shot when I shot SASS and was easy enough to load as well. You'll have a hoot shooting it as well. Smithy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 I'm jumping in here because I am comtemplaiting shooting black or sub in my 45 colts. My 38s will stay smokeless but the belch of smoke and flame seems attractive. I load BP rifle cartridges with real black all the time in 45-70, 50-70, 11mm Mauser, 577, 577-450 and more. I have 777 and Goex Black. What will the differences be between these two black (and black like) powders? Can 777 be used in a progressive loader? (Lee 1000) I am sure Black cannot due the to the static risk. How about cleanup? I know how to clean my rifles with no problem after a match. How do pistols compare in their fussines? I can lube the bullets with my BP lube or my red carnuba smokeless lube, with 777 does it matter which one I use? Any thoughts would be much appreciated. I will reply by a PM to avoid thread drift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairshake Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 Gentlemen, You did not read my post correctly if You think I said anything about volume does not matter. The Swiss powders are all grain sizes different from any Goex powders. This is true for different lots of the same brand even. Read my post again and see that I stated that the factories of old always loaded by weight for the powder they choose to load. Once you have developed a load for your 45-70 then you may use that measure seating to load the rest of that lot "ONLY". Don't try to make something that it is not by twisting my words. I stand by all the information that I posted. If you want to make me wrong then show me a box of REAL BLACK POWDER ROUNDS from the 1880 time period that states the cartridges were loaded by volume. Do some research and go back into this century, starting in 1900 and show me a loading manual that tell you to load your BP rounds by volume. As I stated before, that did not take place until the advent of PYRODEX. I am like ELMER KEITH on this one in that Hell I was There!! I was working in a gun store when the sales man came in to sell us some of the new powder to hit the market. It was Pyrodex and we sold DuPont and a English BP that I can't recall at the time. The owner started stocking it as he was given many extras for putting it on the shelf. He lost complete interest when he discovered a couple of his real BP revolvers were rusted like crazy from shooting the guns and not cleaning them that day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duffield, SASS #23454 Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 44 WCF plus Goex 2F- push a Big Lube bullet on top- let her fly. It is the true cowboy way dammmit! It is always a posse pleaser- just ask the cowboy & girls I shot with today. Easy clean up- water and a little ballistol- Ready for the next day. AND wait to you get to the 70 grain shotgun loads! See you soon & keep the smoke & fire coming- I shoot 44-40's loaded with a case full of FFG and a 215 grain bullet in 7&1/2" Vaqueros. There are people who DO NOT like to be on the same posse with me because of all the smoke and noise. Duffield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 How about cleanup? I know how to clean my rifles with no problem after a match. How do pistols compare in their fussines? Well Hopalong, my first SASS guns were cylinder converted, 45 LC Ruger Old Armies. They were a snap. A dip and a scrub in really hot (boiling) soapy water, dry down and light oiling on assembly. The Bisley's were a bit more tedious as there were more nooks and crannies for the soot to lodge into, but neither were insurmountable. Smithy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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