Badlands Bud #15821 Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 [snip]To run the same race assumes that all are competing,using the same Equipment[snip] Jabez Cowboy Boy, Nike would sure love that, wouldn't they? Equipment in most sports is optional within a set of rules dictated by the sport. Manufacturers of sporting equipment will then tend to build products that can be used in the sport for which they're designed, and competitors in the sport can choose among the various manufacturers based upon whatever criteria they wish. In SASS however, the criteria for many shooters equipment selection is not based solely upon what will make them perform the best in terms of time. Some wish to dress more authentically, some wish to use black-powder, some wish to use larger calibers (and some even very small calibers which can also be a disadvantage under the clock). This, I am convinced, is the reason that the categories were first invented. It's difficult to measure how well those who try to dress more authentically and shoot larger calibers are doing against each other unless you have them separated out as a different category. The real purpose of category is to allow those who are running the same race to self-select certain groups with whom they can compete in a different way at the same time. I think the fundamental problem is that in CAS the only measuring device we have on the stage measures time. Inevitably, somebody is going to want to know who did the best based on the data available. If there was a way to accurately measure who dressed the most authentically we'd probably have awards for that too (and I'm pretty sure most major matches have a costume contest). If we were to sit through and chronograph every shooter's ammunition, somebody would want to know who had the most powerful load. If we were to have some way to measure who most embodies the Cowboy Spirit, we'd have an award for that (also known as a Spirit of the Game Award). I personally think that if we had a way of accurately measuring who had the most fun at a match, that person would be the obvious over-all winner, but we don't have any way of measuring who's having the most fun. So, as long as we all can't figure out who's having more fun, can we just go back to having fun together? --Badlands Bud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Who shoots wearing overalls? Sometimes I do !!! +3 Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wimpy Hank Yoho Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Boy, Nike would sure love that, wouldn't they? Equipment in most sports is optional within a set of rules dictated by the sport. Manufacturers of sporting equipment will then tend to build products that can be used in the sport for which they're designed, and competitors in the sport can choose among the various manufacturers based upon whatever criteria they wish. In SASS however, the criteria for many shooters equipment selection is not based solely upon what will make them perform the best in terms of time. Some wish to dress more authentically, some wish to use black-powder, some wish to use larger calibers (and some even very small calibers which can also be a disadvantage under the clock). This, I am convinced, is the reason that the categories were first invented. It's difficult to measure how well those who try to dress more authentically and shoot larger calibers are doing against each other unless you have them separated out as a different category. The real purpose of category is to allow those who are running the same race to self-select certain groups with whom they can compete in a different way at the same time. I think the fundamental problem is that in CAS the only measuring device we have on the stage measures time. Inevitably, somebody is going to want to know who did the best based on the data available. If there was a way to accurately measure who dressed the most authentically we'd probably have awards for that too (and I'm pretty sure most major matches have a costume contest). If we were to sit through and chronograph every shooter's ammunition, somebody would want to know who had the most powerful load. If we were to have some way to measure who most embodies the Cowboy Spirit, we'd have an award for that (also known as a Spirit of the Game Award). I personally think that if we had a way of accurately measuring who had the most fun at a match, that person would be the obvious over-all winner, but we don't have any way of measuring who's having the most fun. So, as long as we all can't figure out who's having more fun, can we just go back to having fun together? --Badlands Bud + 1 Wimp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Texas Jack Black Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Sure, we all know the top shooters in Frontiersman COULD be top gun if only they competed in the same class with all the other fast shooters. And all those 90-pound girls COULD win the decathalon, they merely CHOOSE to compete in floor exercises, balance beam & uneven parallel bars... You make my point Top Overall is for the feel good crowd Now that does not mean this is a bad thing it only shows, which most know Top Overall really means nothing .It is an award given to help promote the game . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 In Olympic Archery they have different Equipment classes and each shoots in Their Class and wins medals in their class .... They then don't declare someone "Overall Winner" for Archery !!!! In other words Modern Equipment Compounds arn't given the "Overall Win" because they are EASYER TO SHOOT WELL !!! yes their scores are better than the recurve shooters ........ But are they BETTER Shots or more dedicated NOPE !!! They just Shoot equipment that is FAR and Away EASYER to MASTER !!! Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder SASS #13056 Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Folks that know this game and similar ones, understand that some categories have different challenges. So it is very appropriate to have category awards and yes, even winners. But there are also several categories that are very nearly the same, but for various reasons, we choose to separate into separate categories such as by age, and gender. And often times some one of the "non-traditional" categories (in Senior, or Duelist, or gunfighter or female) may score the best of the match, be it in total time or rank. In such cases we definitely SHOULD NOT GIVE THEM RECOGNITION! Am I hearing that correctly?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korupt Karl Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 You make my point Top Overall is for the feel good crowd Now that does not mean this is a bad thing it only shows, which most know Top Overall really means nothing .It is an award given to help promote the game . If you think it is only for the feel good crowd. Watch a Man on Man match sometime. While the eventual winner "feels good" he also knows to win he has to beat the best whether it be against "come one come all" or against other category winners. At my last match I watched: Black Tom, Lassiter, Doc Molar, Doc Nopar, Campo Kid, Duece Stevens, Colt McCallister, Max Montana, KJ Stevens to name a few.....shoot against each other in Man on Man. On any given day they have been top gun or top woman. They didn't get a buckle....just a plaque, but they got braggin rights until the next time. It was also an exhibition of sorts and from the crowd reaction everyone enjoyed watchin the best perform. Call it what you will.....these guys play hard and had to go to the line a half dozen times to "be on their game" to come out on top. Hell yes, it's good for the sport.....and you know what....they practice and work hard to hone their craft. I'll say it again....take away the award for top gun and we all will still be lookin at rankpoints or total time to see who come out on top.....it's our general nature. For those who come just to play and not worry about time, etc. the Top Gun award in no way takes away from their good time. Just my two scents. KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocWard Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 For those who come just to play and not worry about time, etc. the Top Gun award in no way takes away from their good time. Just my two scents. KK Don't forget the other side of that coin. For those who do come to focus on time, it is added motivation to be their best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Somebody has to lead the pack...I support the overall top shooter. GG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Texas Jack Black Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Is Top Overall really the best of the best? or is it only showing the best of the two handed shooters? Is it a FAIR test of ability when some side matches are stacked in favor of only one style of shooting? Top Overall shows the stacked side of the game. I say keep it as it is entertaining to the spectators and the youngsters need to see speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Texas Jack Black Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Somebody has to lead the pack...I support the overall top shooter ] They are only leading that portion of the pack that shoots as they do. no more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crosscut Jack, SASS #67759 Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 We aren't all Runnung the same RACE in CAS either !!!! To run the same race assumes that all are competing,using the same Equipment on the same course with only PERSONAL ABILITIES differing !!! This is Clearly NOT the case as the difficulty in shooting and winning while ducking and weaving to see the targets through the smoke is NOT THE SAME COURSE OF FIRE AS shooting lightly loaded non recoiling guns at clearly visible targets ... Would you judge it the same course if in Shotput if one person was throwing a Shot weighing 5 pounds and one using a shot weighing 16 pounds ??? The distances thrown might be expected to differ, due to the difference in equipment even though BOTH ARE THROWING A SHOT FOR DISTANCE .... And the differences in equipment and the unique challenges this brings to CAS are in great part what makes this game such fun,just don't pretend the Course is the SAME for ALL .... Frontiersmen is a harder and slower way to compete in this game no matter how many ,,,,, Claim it ain't So .... The overall winner won his Class ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and this is Great ,,,,, but then too did the Frontiersman ..... It is expected that the fellow using both hands to shoot lightly loaded guns with the latest MODS and not having to deal with a smoke-screen should win a timed match ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, That however DON"T MAKE HIM BETTER !!! Jabez Cowboy Right on the mark, Jabez + Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Texas Jack Black Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 We aren't all Runnung the same RACE in CAS either !!!! To run the same race assumes that all are competing,using the same Equipment on the same course with only PERSONAL ABILITIES differing !!! This is Clearly NOT the case as the difficulty in shooting and winning while ducking and weaving to see the targets through the smoke is NOT THE SAME COURSE OF FIRE AS shooting lightly loaded non recoiling guns at clearly visible targets ... Would you judge it the same course if in Shotput if one person was throwing a Shot weighing 5 pounds and one using a shot weighing 16 pounds ??? The distances thrown might be expected to differ, due to the difference in equipment even though BOTH ARE THROWING A SHOT FOR DISTANCE .... And the differences in equipment and the unique challenges this brings to CAS are in great part what makes this game such fun,just don't pretend the Course is the SAME for ALL .... Frontiersmen is a harder and slower way to compete in this game no matter how many ,,,,, Claim it ain't So .... The overall winner won his Class ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and this is Great ,,,,, but then too did the Frontiersman ..... It is expected that the fellow using both hands to shoot lightly loaded guns with the latest MODS and not having to deal with a smoke-screen should win a timed match ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, That however DON"T MAKE HIM BETTER !!! Jabez Cowboy Right On I think most know this now will they acknowledge it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisler Wood Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Same old crap different year.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pit Bull Tex Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 To me this is all BS. If you want to be the top gun, shoot what he shoots and beat him.Do you guys shoot to shoot the best you can. I dont shoot how I am the fastest,I shoot what is most fun to me.Sure I would love to be the best but I started at 67 with RA.I just love to see the fast guys and ladies shoot.Why do you care what someone is shooting. If he shoots BP and you like it go shoot it.Just to be in a posse with the fast guys or ladies is a blessing to me.I dont care if a guys spends 3000.00 on his six shooters,He still had to work at what he does.If some one kicks your butt maybe it is because he works harder than you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 They are only leading that portion of the pack that shoots as they do. no more Sorry pard - we all have a choice how we want to shoot. If'n ya want to compete with the two-handers - shoot two handed. Again, somebody's got to lead the pack - I support the overall top shooter. All the other categories have winners too. ...and it is what it is. GG ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJT Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Almost a decade ago, an 11 year old boy told me he wanted to be the best in the world and he wanted to attain that goal while still a junior shooter and be the first junior to do it. Six years ago, racing the clock on 12 stages, racing the calendar on his age and racing a field of other outstanding juniors, he did it. A boy set a man sized goal and reached it. You would suggest stealing that goal from other boys and girls. You would suggest stealing similar goals from men with grey hair. You would suggest stealing similar goals from outstanding women shooters. I call that short sighted, mean and down right petty. That is what I say. Black Jack Traven Every year about this time I look at the top matches and ponder......... Why do we award a Top overall shooter? By default, that shooter already has won his/her category! So we give them a second, bigger buckle? Let's face it, the guy smoking up the joint has little chance to win a major match or even come in the top ten. It seems to me that we should give just as much attention and praise to the person that wins his/her category. What say you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irish Red OToole, #48939 Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 I had a long response, but Black Jack Traven said it best. +1 BJT!!! and good luck to that "young shooter" at EOT next week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Same old crap different year.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chantry Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Every year about this time I look at the top matches and ponder......... Why do we award a Top overall shooter? By default, that shooter already has won his/her category! So we give them a second, bigger buckle? Let's face it, the guy smoking up the joint has little chance to win a major match or even come in the top ten. It seems to me that we should give just as much attention and praise to the person that wins his/her category. What say you? That every year, sometimes even twice a year, this topic comes up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Wind-Walker #36748 Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Yawn........... Seems to me our....."Fantasy Sport" is based on the ......"perception"...of what a Gunfight (or Gunbattle) was like in the old west........ The fastest one usually won...(one on one Gunfight)......their names and reputations were spread abroad...it's part of our history.....people came looking for them......to see how fast they were --- and see if they could beat them......and they would be called the fastest........ Not much has changed today......... Wheather the ..."perception" (we play our game under) of how the gunfight really was ---- is accurate or not....jury is out.....many will expouse theories........ none are totally conclusive........not enough records not enough data............. But one thing that has stayed the same............we have prof in the old days of reports of gunfights and gun battles..it sold newspapres and dime novels and was passed by word of mouth.......(totally accurate - probably not...!!!)......but People still want to know......... "Who's the fastest?".... It's just human nature for most folks.........and I admit...I like to know....... And there is no 12 step program for it.......so just go play our "Fantasy Sport and have fun....... Regards........Wolf (maybe one of the fastest Senior Duelists...????..maybe not ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noz Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 I am so proud of myself! I chose to use the delete key. Five paragraphs that did not need to be written disappeared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oklahoma Dee Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Who shoots wearing overalls? Why, One of the all time great shooters in the state of Texas! Hemlock! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Same old crap different year.......... oh well...another chance to try a different brand of toilet paper.. GG ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el Gato Gordo - SASS #15162 Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 "Let's eliminate the overall top shooter!" Let's not. I'm never going to win it ~ ever ~ but I sure like seeing those who do, and they deserve the recognition for all their hard work. Eliminate it? Bad idea. eGG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Almost a decade ago, an 11 year old boy told me he wanted to be the best in the world and he wanted to attain that goal while still a junior shooter and be the first junior to do it. Six years ago, racing the clock on 12 stages, racing the calendar on his age and racing a field of other outstanding juniors, he did it. A boy set a man sized goal and reached it.You would suggest stealing that goal from other boys and girls. You would suggest stealing similar goals from men with grey hair. You would suggest stealing similar goals from outstanding women shooters. I call that short sighted, mean and down right petty. That is what I say. Black Jack Traven And for those that don't understand that, more's the pity. And for those of you that don't think those that attain that goal aren't better shooters, well... I can point to a few examples where a Top Overall switched and tried to repeat in FC or Frontiersman and dominated there also. I'm saddened that folks that have been around as long as some of you don't have a better grasp of the concepts involved. Bud, you rock, well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Houston # 35508 Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Who shoots wearing overalls? I can think of 3 or 4 including T-Bone sometimes, it's his RailRoad outfit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 I reckon you could try, but since they are best overall that means they are fast with a gun. Ya might have to ambush them in their sleep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madd Mike #8595 Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Every year about this time I look at the top matches and ponder......... What say you? (not reading out or giving somthing for top overall) has been tried in fact, it has been a "sass tolt ya so thing" I have put on black powder state championship shoots in the past I have shot in other states black powder stage championship shoots in the past SASS says in black powder state shoots """DO NOT AWARD OR EVEN CALL OUT TOP OVERALL SHOOTERS""" GUESS what the first things folks are asking, right after the awards are barely finished being red "Hey, who the he ! !, were the overall shooters" ? ? ? if you dont want to give that award at shoots????? then dont ! ! ! but folks will still want ta know..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Wut Madd Mike said!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I nevur wuz much one tu du wut he wuz tole tu du!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Cheyenne, whu wunts tu no tu, Culpepper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 What a selfish and stoopid OP. What's it to any one whether there is a Top Overall or not? Don't like it...don't listen to the announcement of Top Overall. For me right now...Top Overall is fun to go after...that's why I've been signin up Cowboy. Figure it takes my mind of Class win and it focuses my thoughts on overall. But...alas...folks on the Wire will still whine about why something ain't a certain way...even though many don't even shoot any more. What a joke... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 For those not wanting the top shooters named just think of another category, Farmers category being named, you know the Overalls category. For those that think overall winner is only a feel good award, it is one of few awards with significant monetary value. State overall winners get free entry to their regional event. Regional winners get free entry to WR, and WR winner gets free entry to EOT as I understand it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checotah Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 Biggest problem I have with some folks' positions on this issue is the definition of "best". Looks like most usually mean "fastest". Isn't necessarily a given, although I'm sure some people see the two terms as interchangable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowCatcher Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 Biggest problem I have with some folks' positions on this issue is the definition of "best". Looks like most usually mean "fastest". Isn't necessarily a given, although I'm sure some people see the two terms as interchangable. In a game where the winner is determined by lowest overall time - and winning is considered by most all as better than losing, best is by definition the fastest shooter when the scores are tallied. That may not be the definition of "most like", "my favorite" or other terms, but it is the definition of best . . .. SC p.s. - The OP is silly - this is a timed game - and the person with the winning time is best overall - style points don't get you home . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Houston # 35508 Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 Since CAS is a competition where the "Fastest Shooter" wins...That shooter is "The Best" for that match!!! If your Idea of "THE BEST" is did he hit every target in the center (10 ring) then you are in the wrong sport! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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