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To Have a Cross or Not...


J.P.Sloe , SASS # 23506

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I would hate to see people withdraw their support for this worthy project simply because it might not have a cross on the roof.

If that is you decision I won't be able to change your mind, but I think you might want to sit down and ruminate on it some.

:(

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I will provide the ice picks but they are well used and very rusty.

 

Will you be providing the ice picks or will it be a BYOIP?

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I would hate to see people withdraw their support for this worthy project simply because it might not have a cross on the roof.

If that is you decision I won't be able to change your mind, but I think you might want to sit down and ruminate on it some.

:(

 

I wouldn't worry about it - when one door is closed another opens...

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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There is a big difference between being politically correct and shoving your views down someone else’s throat.

How would you feel if you walked up to the chapel and it had a Star of David on the steeple or inside the door was a statue of Buddha? Both the Jewish and Oriental religions were common in the early west.

What about the Native Americans, they had their own religious beliefs as did the early slaves?

I have attended religious services in three different uniforms and wearing everything from nothing to a tux. I have been privileged to participate in the services and rituals of every major religion with the exception of Islam.

I believe and I may be wrong that this was to be a Cowboy chapel not specifically a Christian chapel.

While I consider myself to basically be a Christian I don’t see a need to have a cross on a building to worship there.

A chapel is a place to meditate and reflect, icons of any particular religion are not necessary to fulfill that purpose

 

HTH

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UB and otheres - I am not saying that it isn't a worthy project. But to have it change horses mid stream to some extent is unsettling. I, and apparently many (a majority of ?)others, had the expectation that there would be a cross on the chapel. My own personal expectation of that is not based on the faith issue, but on the mental picture I get when I think of an old West Chapel. A big part of what irks me about the decision is the apparent focus on making sure that a potentially vocal minority (my opinion) is placated.

 

I understand that this, like many volunteer based efforts, fight an uphill battle on funding, and as such often have a moving target as to what exactly can be done, and when. I say that to say that I understand that the design of the "chapel" wasn't finalized when the fund raising efforts started, in fact they still may not be finalized. I also realize that the question as to have a cross or not may not have raised up to this point. Some assuming there would be, some assuming not, and still others figuring that is would depend of what research showed to be a typical old west church building.

 

Unfortunately, the decision couldn't have come at worse time in my opinion. Ideally it would have been thought of, and decided at the start. Then folks would have a clear picture of what the project was, and would have been able to decide if they wanted to support it or not. If the issue hadn't come to light until the "chapel" was finished, with or without a cross, and the decision was based either on historical correctness, or the B-Western image of an old west church, I don't think there would have been near as much backlash.

 

I respect that once the decision had been made, it was made known. I don't however respect the decision itself based on the reasoning that went into making it.

 

I could write so much more, but in the effort not to rant, I'll stop right here.

 

Grizz

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There is a big difference between being politically correct and shoving your views down someone else’s throat.

 

HTH

 

I've asked this question more times than I can count and have yet to get an answer. How is the simple display of a cross "shoving my views down someone's throat"? Would you then be FORCED to read the Bible? Whould you then be FORCED to get baptised? Would you then be FORCED to come and worship every Sunday? What is it?

 

As has been said numerous times, any and all would be welcome. You can pray to the Devil himself if you want to. But what on Earth is it about a simple cross atop a building that makes people's skin crawl???

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How can a Chaple be "devoid of religious symbols from any particular faith. ..."??? This would be funny if it wasnt so sad. I do believe it is dishonest to recruit funds and volunteers for a Chapel and then come out later and make a statement such as this. It is a Memorial building but it is not a chapel.

 

A cross and a Star of David would be appropriate, but trying to cover all the bases like Budda, Native American, Wiccan, etc would be impracticle if not impossible.

Those that hold no affiliation should care less since these symbols hold no meaning for them.

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:FlagAm: Received my Chronicle yesterday and as usual read the article by Tex right off. Then I turned the page and read the next article he wrote about the Cowboy Memorial Chapel. Needless to say I am deeply disapointed and P*****. He mentioned a "member recently asked a poignant question, "is the SASS Chapel just for Christians?'" I don't know of to many Chapels that were not erected by Christians, and in so doing put a cross on the steeple. The only Christian religion I know of that does not have a cross on its houses of worship are the Mormon or Latter Day Saints. Since when do we as SASS members bow to the whims of a few, or are we just being politically correct? As he stated in this article, this country was founded by Christian men, not Buddists or Muslim or Shinto. I respect these religions, but I have to ask how many non-Christian men and women helped put this Chapel on the road to get it erected? Are we being politically correct so that the ACLU will stay out of or lives? I don't know about anyone else, but that Chapel should have a cross on its steeple.

After all it is not a Catholic Chapel or a Methodist or Baptist or Lutheran Chapel, it is in my view a Christian Chapel and should have a cross even if it is a Greek Orthodox cross.

I'll get off my soap box here. :angry:

 

I'll start off by saying that I was raised initially with a christian background, but by a family where the precise religion was less important than the morals and ethics. My father is jewish, my mother's christian, I'm pretty much nothing. Some pagan variation if I had to name it, but I generally feel that "spiritual but not religious" is a better term. That said, I feel that the chapel SHOULD have a cross. And any internal decor can lean whatever way the crew organizing it wants. I would suggest that the altar area itself be setup to allow other religious groups the ability to make use of it but that's as simple as a drape over the altar and any major crosses or similar icons behind the altar being removable or having some way to hide them temporarily. To me, even that last is less important, it's not the symbols that matter, it's what is in your heart and soul. If you don't share that religion then why should you care one way or the other about that symbol? It's just a piece of wood or metal in a particular shape doing absolutely nothing to you.

 

I go to many different houses of worship for different purposes. Weddings, funerals, baptisms, coming of age ceremonies.... I don't feel that simply because I don't share that particular faith it is any less valuable to the others there, or that I can't be part of that event. I may not be a christian, but when I finally pass away I would be glad to have anyone remember me, in a chapel with a cross, a grove with a live oak or a synagogue under the star of david, or in a private home over beers.

 

If some feel that the chapel with a cross does not suit them, that's fine, they are free to raise funds and get permission to erect a structure suitable to their group, aren't they? The chapel is not harming them, and is not attempting to dictate their beliefs, it is simply providing a venue for those who choose to use it.

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I've asked this question more times than I can count and have yet to get an answer. How is the simple display of a cross "shoving my views down someone's throat"? Would you then be FORCED to read the Bible? Whould you then be FORCED to get baptised? Would you then be FORCED to come and worship every Sunday? What is it?

 

As has been said numerous times, any and all would be welcome. You can pray to the Devil himself if you want to. But what on Earth is it about a simple cross atop a building that makes people's skin crawl???

 

Exactly..

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875

I left here yesterday and went into Jackson for grocery shopping and pick up something that my wife wanted me to get for her.

 

She had me run over to a Realtor's Office to pick up some paperwork for the club she belongs to. Just so happens the Realtor's Office building used to be an old Chapel, ie: a small church.

 

While I was in there I remarked how no one would ever believe that this was once a Chapel.

 

She looked at me and said, "While to turn it into an Office, the first thing we did was remove the crosses. The one on the roof, and the one up there on the wall."

 

I replied, "Well I guess that's all it takes!"

 

Wikipedia defines a Chapel as:

 

"A chapel is a building used by Christians, members of other religions, and sometimes interfaith communities, as a place of fellowship and worship. A church, college, hospital, palace, prison or funeral home, located on board a military or commercial ship, or it may be an entirely free-standing building, sometimes with its own grounds."

 

For Tex to suggest that the Memorial Chapel not have some sort of religous symbol means that it is NOT a Chapel, ie: place of worship.

 

It is polical correctness. His decision goes directly to his ability to placate a few while offending the majority.

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Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875

I guess it will need to be called the Cowboy Memorial Community Center :unsure:

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

 

Maybe Tex can be our Community Organizer in Chief! :blink:;)

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I was doing some research. I may be missing it but it appeared to me that the Air Force, Army and Naval Academy chapels to not have an exterior cross large enough to be easily noticed on photgraphs.

 

Also saw that the oldest church in Manhattan does not have a cross. When it was built, such a thing was seen as idolatrous.

 

My how the pendulum swings from no cross because it violated Chrsitian belief to no cross because it may offend non-Christian belief.

 

I find the Jefferson quote posted earlier to be most appropriate.

 

Very Best Regards All,

BJT

 

 

I left here yesterday and went into Jackson for grocery shopping and pick up something that my wife wanted me to get for her.

 

She had me run over to a Realtor's Office to pick up some paperwork for the club she belongs to. Just so happens the Realtor's Office building used to be an old Chapel, ie: a small church.

 

While I was in there I remarked how no one would ever believe that this was once a Chapel.

 

She looked at me and said, "While to turn it into an Office, the first thing we did was remove the crosses. The one on the roof, and the one up there on the wall."

 

I replied, "Well I guess that's all it takes!"

 

Wikipedia defines a Chapel as:

 

"A chapel is a building used by Christians, members of other religions, and sometimes interfaith communities, as a place of fellowship and worship. A church, college, hospital, palace, prison or funeral home, located on board a military or commercial ship, or it may be an entirely free-standing building, sometimes with its own grounds."

 

For Tex to suggest that the Memorial Chapel not have some sort of religous symbol means that it is NOT a Chapel, ie: place of worship.

 

It is polical correctness. His decision goes directly to his ability to placate a few while offending the majority.

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Trying to look at this rationally, even though I admit I was shocked at first to read that the chapel wouldn't have a cross on it:

 

In the old west many buildings were used as churches, but they weren't always only a church. Building a building that was used once or twice a week was costly and out of reach for many communities. I doubt they put crosses on schools etc. even though those buildings were used as churches on weekends.

 

A symbol isn't the religion. A building doesn't have to have a cross on it to be a church. In my own locality there are several churches that meet in school buildings. Those folks have the cross in them, they could meet anywhere and be a church.

 

Fact is, there are many religions represented in SASS, each with their own symbols. I assume each person carries their religion in their heart, minds and souls and don't need a symbol on the building to have it represent a church for them.

 

I hope there are services in the new chapel, the congregation or preacher can bring the symbols they need or want and display them during the service and the service will not be any less for the lack of a symbol that is not seen on the exterior of the church.

 

All in all, there are more reasons to not have a cross on the chapel than there are to have on on it. Not all of these reasons are political correctness at all. These reasons are based in history and the nature of the building being a memorial and gathering place for many people of many religions.

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Read every response here, and one thing becomes obvious:

 

It is usually a mistake for an organization to undertake a project outside the boundaries of its members' commmon interests. We are a shooting game/sport - though even THAT has been debated beyond sanity on this very Wire in the past - and MAYBE we should concentrate on member-sponsored projects that don't cross the divisive areas of politics and religion... just sayin'.

 

Already in this thread, we've heard so much clap-trap about how "Christians hated Jews, Protestants ?, blah, blah, blah"; "Orthodox Christians are somehow more original than the Roman church (must have forgotten about Peter on that one); "...should be non-denominational - how would you feel if you walked into a chapel with a Star of David blah, blah, blah"; "...freedom from religion"; "non-denominational", etc. I'm sure everyone is sincere, but there is so much editorial here this thread would have long ago disappeared if we were talking about anything except our own manufactured controversy.

 

I don't need a place to pray. I don't need a memorial to remind me of those that have gone before me. God hears me wherever I am and knows what is in my heart.

 

Hope you folks get it all figured out, and work out how it will be maintained and financially supported for whatever its life-cycle becomes - but I still can't see why we need to divide and dilute our membership over matters that don't involve shooting our game.

 

But then again, I'm not interested in karaoke, pajama parties, pirates, Steampunk, or any of the other things that seem to be applealing to other members of the organization. More power to you! In all fairness, wars have never been waged over any of these... yet. However, that COULD change if I ever got hold of a microphone... :lol:

 

Best to all,

PW

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As an agnostic, I don't particularly care what is done with the chapel. It would be a shame, though, if folks were so closed minded that it wasn't made in a fashion welcoming to those of all the faiths that participate in SASS. Is this how folks "love thy neighbor as thyself?"

 

Buena suerte,

eGG

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I think it is a matter of perception and expectation. People were asked to "Donate for the Cowboy Memorial Chapel!" And in the minds of many, the idea of a "cowboy chapel" calls up images of the little rectangular white building with a somewhat steeply pitched roof, and some sort of bell tower topped by a cross.

 

To then find that the structure will be indistinguishable from the schoolhouse or courthouse conflicts with their expectations.

 

Maybe call it "Cowboy Memorial Hall."

 

(BTW, I have heard of St. Peter, "one of the elders of Rome." I also recall St. James, who headed the first Council.)

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I think it is a matter of perception and expectation. People were asked to "Donate for the Cowboy Memorial Chapel!" And in the minds of many, the idea of a "cowboy chapel" calls up images of the little rectangular white building with a somewhat steeply pitched roof, and some sort of bell tower topped by a cross.

 

To then find that the structure will be indistinguishable from the schoolhouse or courthouse conflicts with their expectations.

 

Maybe call it "Cowboy Memorial Hall."

 

(BTW, I have heard of St. Peter, "one of the elders of Rome." I also recall St. James, who headed the first Council.)

 

Exactly. I dont think anyone would care if they were up front about what they wanted to do here. But to snooker people in to donating time and money by calling it a Chapel is just wrong. The same people may donate to a CAS Memorial Building fund but at least they will know what it is.

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Wow...a thread where I was hesitant to comment in...Both side have valid points.

 

For me, I don't care one way or the other as I've always seen this project as producing a place where I can go and remember my friends like China Camp...Igo Healed...Smoke Parnell...Singin' Zeke...Iron Burner...Papa Joe...I think I'll stop now...

 

For all I care...you can put a rock on top of the steeply pitched roof.

 

:FlagAm:

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Wow...a thread where I was hesitant to comment in...Both side have valid points.

 

For me, I don't care one way or the other as I've always seen this project as producing a place where I can go and remember my friends like China Camp...Igo Healed...Smoke Parnell...Singin' Zeke...Iron Burner...Papa Joe...I think I'll stop now...

 

For all I care...you can put a rock on top of the steeply pitched roof.

 

:FlagAm:

 

I agree. I think some folks may be losing focus of what's important.

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I spent some time over on Google Images looking at Old West Churches. A significant percentage of the churches were simple high-pitched rectangular buildings with a bell tower in the front, with no cross or symbol of any kind. I don't see the outrage myself.

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I spent some time over on Google Images looking at Old West Churches. A significant percentage of the churches were simple high-pitched rectangular buildings with a bell tower in the front, with no cross or symbol of any kind. I don't see the outrage myself.

I did the same thing yesterday.

Were those images from the 1800s? Or were they modern photos?

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I did the same thing yesterday.

Were those images from the 1800s? Or were they modern photos?

 

Old photos, including some ghost town pictures. It seemed the Missions all had crosses, but not all of the churches.

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Many opinions and ideas have been expressed. We could go back to the link for the SASS and take each word and analize it to death.

 

Reading the original idea it was going to be a place where we could memorialize those who have passed on. A place of rememberence. A place where services could be held was posed as the project evolved.

 

Someone said here, call it anything you want, I just want a place to go and remember my friends.

 

This discussion has caused a rift just over whether an Icon be placed on the building. It is often said that one should always leave politics and religion out of every conversation. Why because there is no right or wrong.

 

Removing your support of the project because on Icon isn't on the building falls short of wanting to create a place for our friends and loved ones. Isn't that the real goal here.

 

I believe Tex is right in leaving the building "neutral". Look at the disharmony it's caused here and the thing isn't even built yet.

 

I know another opinion

 

Ike

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Yet UB, isn't it important that when fundraising that accuracy about what is to be used with the funds raised is accurate?

In this case it appears not!

We are focused on what is important.

We contributed to a Chapel not to a PC non-denominational, offend no one, non-historically correct structure.

 

"The Closest You'll Get to The Old West.... Short of A Time Machine"

 

 

1. On the SASS home page it is listed under "SASS Charities" as Cowboy Chapel.

 

2. A Chapel is a building used by Christians

 

3. SASS is about a sport based upon the old west of the United States of America

 

4. The United States of America was founded by a group of God fearing people who were mostly Christian.

I don't know if there were any Jews. I have seen no evidence that any of the founding fathers were Muslims, Buddhists, Shinto, etc.

 

5. The cross is a symbol of the Christian faith

 

We expect a cross on the steeple of the Cowboy Chapel.

 

 

The military academies were mentioned by some.

They are not old west structures nor are they really relevent here.

Unless you can find out about what they were back in the period of our sport ie

1860 - 1899. That leaves the AF Academy out.

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Old photos, including some ghost town pictures. It seemed the Missions all had crosses, but not all of the churches.

 

 

I didn't come across a lot of old photos, mostly new ones of the old buildings. In the period photos I saw I had trouble telling if it was the quality of the photo not showing detail - grainy and from a distance - or if there really was no cross there. Enlarging the images sometimes showed "something" up top, but you couldn't tell what the light smudge was.

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I agree. I think some folks may be losing focus of what's important.

 

 

Hmmmm - I think that some folks actually are focused and have a passionate (and legitimate) argument to the situation.

 

Like Phantom said: "Both side have valid points."

 

 

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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Howdy, Pards,

FYI, the U.S. Air Force Academy Cadet Chapel has NO religious symbols on the exterior of the building, yet it is still considered and called a "chapel". Yes, there are definitely religious symbols in the Protestant chapel, the largest on the main level, and respectively in the Catholic (IIRC, they have a separate one on the lower level), and the Jewish chapel, and the Budhist chapel, but...NOT on the outside of the building. Are these individual chapels religious houses of worship? Yes, they are. But the building is called The Cadet Chapel, but not a religious symbol on the exterior. True,the Air Force wasn't around during the days of the Old West. (BTW, do you know who the first military observer to go up in a tethered balloon during the Civil War? Hint: he could have used one to observe the strength of the enemy in valley in Montana a decade plus later.)

 

There is no question that a majority of Americans were and are Protestant Christians. But you might want to look up Haym Solomon's name and contribution to the American Revolution. Check and see how Commodore Uriah P. Levy got flogging abolished in the U.S. Navy...and then preserved Thomas Jefferson's home by buying it! Col. Alfred P. Mordecai commanded the Springfield Armory after the Civil War.

 

For what it's worth when Jim Levy (no relation to Uriah)"killed his man" in Deadwood, the paper said they weren't sure whether Irish-born Levy, "the pistoliferous gambler" was insulted because he was "a son of Aaron or a son of Erin"! Like most the top gunfighters, he died with a shotgun blast in the back later in New Mexico.

 

Who built the western part of the Transcontinental Railroad? I don't know how many were devout, but the predominent religion of China is Budhism.

 

You Wild Bunchers...what would you be shooting if it weren't for a certain Mormon gunsmith? OK, maybe C96's or Parabellums, but you get the general idea. No M1892 rifles, of course! For that matter, would our tanks and airplanes be as effective without the invention of Ma-Deuce, the Browning M-2 caliber .50? Oh, and don't forget that every "Winchester" rifle from 1885 to 1906 or thereabouts sprang from his fertile brain.

 

Personally, I don't have to have a particular symbol on a building to pray...or even a building itself...(remember the song, "The Place Where I Worship is the Wide Open Spaces"?) But there will be folks made uncomfortable by having a particular symbol...and others that are apparently incensed by not having one!

 

Maybe it's time to remember that there are other things to be worried about...including our Second Ammendment rights, that protect all the others! Just look what's happening in the Middle East! As Ben Franklin said, "We must all hang together, or assuredly we will all hang separately!"

 

Godspeed to those still in harm's way in the defense of Freedom everywhere! God Bless America! :FlagAm:

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... But what on Earth is it about a simple cross atop a building that makes people's skin crawl???

 

Guilty conscious...

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I'm confused.

 

Is this a picture of the actual chapel that is being built? http://www.sassnet.com/chapel/index.php (pic in lower rh corner of page).

 

If not, then the pic doesn't fit. It has a cross on the tower.

 

If it is the actual building, the cross is already constructed.

 

So, you might understand why I am confused.

 

Is Tex talking about taking down a cross that is already there?

 

If so.....................then I'm pissed....mebbe.

 

But, right now, what I am is

 

confused.

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Those that have lost focus cant see that some are upset that funds are being requested for the building of a Chapel, when in actuality it is a Memorial Building with no religous leaning. A Chapel infers religion, specifically Christian. If they dont want that, fine. But call a spade a spade. Pretty simple.

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I think the picture is just an artist rendering. Maybe they should spend the money on some new targets and decent fronts. At least everyone can use those and there won't be any arguments about whether to put a cross, Star of David, or red crescent on top.

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I'm ready to chalk the whole chapel / cross thing up to a "moving target" and let it go, doesn't change my opinion at all, but I'm ready to move on.

 

Lets just call it The Cowboy Memorial Hall. I can get behind that.

 

Grizz

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