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To Have a Cross or Not...


J.P.Sloe , SASS # 23506

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:FlagAm: Received my Chronicle yesterday and as usual read the article by Tex right off. Then I turned the page and read the next article he wrote about the Cowboy Memorial Chapel. Needless to say I am deeply disapointed and P*****. He mentioned a "member recently asked a poignant question, "is the SASS Chapel just for Christians?'" I don't know of to many Chapels that were not erected by Christians, and in so doing put a cross on the steeple. The only Christian religion I know of that does not have a cross on its houses of worship are the Mormon or Latter Day Saints. Since when do we as SASS members bow to the whims of a few, or are we just being politically correct? As he stated in this article, this country was founded by Christian men, not Buddists or Muslim or Shinto. I respect these religions, but I have to ask how many non-Christian men and women helped put this Chapel on the road to get it erected? Are we being politically correct so that the ACLU will stay out of or lives? I don't know about anyone else, but that Chapel should have a cross on its steeple.

After all it is not a Catholic Chapel or a Methodist or Baptist or Lutheran Chapel, it is in my view a Christian Chapel and should have a cross even if it is a Greek Orthodox cross.

I'll get off my soap box here. :angry:

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As a Christian I would be elated to see the chapel with a cross on it. Even more to the argument I would add that most chapels had crosses on them during the old west era (I think). However, given the spectrum of faiths in our sport I would understand if the chapel was open to all faiths such as a hospital chapel is...just my opinion and I will not debate it.

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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I ain't up on all the details of running a chapel but I was under the impression that non-believers was welcome. Ifn I came in to sit a spell and listen to the music and speechafying, you all wouldn't kick my hairy Druid backside out would ya?

 

Come to think on it a little, I expect Tex, for the proper ranch donation, would let me plant an oak tree somewhere on the range as long as my midnight dancing under the moon with mead did not drown out the Doolies on the hill.

 

The Chapel was the work of some dedicated people. I would think if there was enough support, there could also be a China Town with the appropriate temple.

 

Tex worries too much.

 

Shalom,

BJT

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Several thoughts...

 

Old West - did the churches have crosses? I am not a historian but I suspect they did.

 

Open to all? - Absolutely, but that does not preclude having a cross, all of the hospital chapels I can recall did.

 

Built by donations - The chapel is being built on donations, and I would maintain that a vast majority of those contributing either are of the Christian faith, or at the very least expect the chapel to be designed, built, and maintained as such.

 

If not, all "we" are building is a multi faith multi purpose building. Churches have long met in whatever space available, houses, barns, feed stores, schools, or whatever. But we are not building one of those, we are building a chapel. It has never been represented as anything else. Churches of the old west sometimes served as not only places of worship, but as schools, and community meeting places, I believe that they had crosses.

 

I say have the SASS historians come up with as many pictures and drawings of old west churches and make the outside look like those. If most had crosses, we should too. Inside a cross on a table at the front can be set aside if others holding a meeting or worship service are uncomfortable with it.

 

This is a fantasy shooting game, part of what I love about it is that the PC BS of today is left behind. Lets not let it creep back in.

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After all it is not a Catholic Chapel or a Methodist or Baptist or Lutheran Chapel, it is in my view a Christian Chapel and should have a cross even if it is a Greek Orthodox cross.

I'll get off my soap box here. :angry:

 

Um...even if it is a Greek Orthodox cross? EVEN????? Granted, I would rather see the three barred Russian Orthodox Cross, but why the slight at the Greek Orthodox? I'm sure without intending to, you hit a nerve there, the Greeks were followers of Christ a LONG time before the western Europeans were. And a darned sight longer than the protestent sects that exploded in their thousands off of the Roman Church.

 

But, if you are going for a period correct look, yes, it should have a cross on it. Best would be what is known in heraldry as a Latin Cross. By the way, the "Greek Orthodox" Cross, with three lobes on the end of each arm, is also known as a "cross botony".

 

The subdeacon will now step down from the amvon.

 

ADDED: Almost any style of "Orthodox" Cross would look out of place on a structure that is meant to be in the style of an American Old West church or chapel. Just a plain Cross would be the correct style.

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Several thoughts...

 

Old West - did the churches have crosses? I am not a historian but I suspect they did.

 

Open to all? - Absolutely, but that does not preclude having a cross, all of the hospital chapels I can recall did.

 

Built by donations - The chapel is being built on donations, and I would maintain that a vast majority of those contributing either are of the Christian faith, or at the very least expect the chapel to be designed, built, and maintained as such.

 

If not, all "we" are building is a multi faith multi purpose building. Churches have long met in whatever space available, houses, barns, feed stores, schools, or whatever. But we are not building one of those, we are building a chapel. It has never been represented as anything else. Churches of the old west sometimes served as not only places of worship, but as schools, and community meeting places, I believe that they had crosses.

 

I say have the SASS historians come up with as many pictures and drawings of old west churches and make the outside look like those. If most had crosses, we should too. Inside a cross on a table at the front can be set aside if others holding a meeting or worship service are uncomfortable with it.

 

This is a fantasy shooting game, part of what I love about it is that the PC BS of today is left behind. Lets not let it creep back in.

 

Very well put. The part I highlighted reminds me of one of the stories our parish priest told of his time in Viet Nam as an Orthodox Chaplain. Come Easter, he was out at some small base, no chapel. He spread the antimension ( http://orthodoxwiki.org/Antimension ) on the hood of a jeep, some of the men took small icon cards from their wallets and pinned them to boards, and VOILA! instant chapel. He still recalls that as one of the most beautiful Pascal services he has done.

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Have not read the cc yet so can't speak to the article.

 

That said of course it should have a cross on it. It is a chapel that will be open to all (as have been every church or chapel I have ever tried to enter) We are all Gods children regardless of our belief or non belief and are welcome and encouraged to enter into His house.

How many times must we dig out all the quotes from our founding fathers regarding the Christian foundations of this country? How many times are we going to bow down to the wailing and gnashing of teeth by those who say they are for "tolerance" or "diversity" for all, but are hell bent on wiping the very mention of our Creator from the face of this world? I for one would be thrilled to see the cross on the chapel and extend an invitation to all to come and visit.

 

Regards

 

:FlagAm:

 

Gateway Kid

 

By no means perfect only forgiven

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A Chapel without a Cross is wrong.

 

Bending to the will of the politically correct crowd is not the Cowboy Way. Stand up for what is right.

 

The ACLU in my opinion has done more harm than good in recent times. They might have had a use way back when, but today they are nothing more than an arm of a certain political machine.

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While the people who created the Declaration of Independence, Constitution, and the Bill of Rights were white, Christian Males using the logic expressed here we would need to go back to slavery, and take the right to vote away from women!!!!!

 

It says 'freedom of religion', 'all men are created equal','freedom from persecution', 'race creed or color'.

 

SASS welcomes all ages, sexes and abilities, why do we now need to exclude someone because they are not part of the Christian club?

 

I design chapels for hospitals. They all are designed to create a place for meditation, contimplation without any religious bias. When a service is held the Priest, Rabbi, Monk or whatever brings with them the icon which represents their religion.

Jumping to conclusions about the majority of the contributors being Christians is once again rationalization for your position. It has no foundation.

 

Since when did we become NCOWS or a historicaally correct organization. Just because churches had crosses on them doesn't mean we need to do it today. Of course if we want to go back to being historically correct about the chapel then we can reinstitute hatered for Jews, Protestants, Native Americans, etc. because thats what good Christians did back then.

 

I hate being politically correct as much as anyone, but this should be a place that welcomes all people, of all religions, beliefs and faiths. It's as simple as leaving Icons off of the building and letting those who enter worship in their way.

 

Otherwise BJT and I will be running around outside looking for a place that we can be welcomed.

 

Ike

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While the people who created the Declaration of Independence, Constitution, and the Bill of Rights were white, Christian Males using the logic expressed here we would need to go back to slavery, and take the right to vote away from women!!!!!

 

It says 'freedom of religion', 'all men are created equal','freedom from persecution', 'race creed or color'.

 

SASS welcomes all ages, sexes and abilities, why do we now need to exclude someone because they are not part of the Christian club?

 

I design chapels for hospitals. They all are designed to create a place for meditation, contimplation without any religious bias. When a service is held the Priest, Rabbi, Monk or whatever brings with them the icon which represents their religion.

Jumping to conclusions about the majority of the contributors being Christians is once again rationalization for your position. It has no foundation.

 

Since when did we become NCOWS or a historicaally correct organization. Just because churches had crosses on them doesn't mean we need to do it today. Of course if we want to go back to being historically correct about the chapel then we can reinstitute hatered for Jews, Protestants, Native Americans, etc. because thats what good Christians did back then.

 

I hate being politically correct as much as anyone, but this should be a place that welcomes all people, of all religions, beliefs and faiths. It's as simple as leaving Icons off of the building and letting those who enter worship in their way.

 

Otherwise BJT and I will be running around outside looking for a place that we can be welcomed.

 

Ike

 

 

 

+1 Thanks Ike. You and BJT be sure to save me a spot at that other place too...! :FlagAm:

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+1 Thanks Ike. You and BJT be sure to save me a spot at that other place too...! :FlagAm:

 

 

+2

 

I don't think it has anything to do with being politically correct. To me the "cowboy way" would be to welcome all people regardless of faith or lack thereof.

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Since the range is kinda a pasteurized version of the old west anyways, I doubt we'll ever see a bear in a cage, hogwallers, a chinese laundry, general stink and a whole bunch of other things.

 

Let them that paid for the thing decide what it should be.

 

BJT is a druid because it's cheap. Purty dang thrifty to go naked beatin a drum in the woods.......

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And it helps pay for the mead!!!

 

Since the range is kinda a pasteurized version of the old west anyways, I doubt we'll ever see a bear in a cage, hogwallers, a chinese laundry, general stink and a whole bunch of other things.

 

Let them that paid for the thing decide what it should be.

 

BJT is a druid because it's cheap. Purty dang thrifty to go naked beatin a drum in the woods.......

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Whats next?

 

We gonna start fighting about having a Christmas tree? Force us to call it a holiday tree? Where is the CowPerson category? Do we need to change the starting line from "the injuns are coming" to "the native Americans are coming?" Are we not going to have cowboy church because there is not a service for every faith represented? Are we going to put a revolving sign on the place, "Chapel" "Temple" "Insect worshipping den" whatever.

 

For those offended by a chapel with a cross, get organized, come up with plans for your own place of worship, get it approved by the wild bunch, raise the money and get the volunteers to get it built.

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Before this thread deteriorates, and I expect it will, it was my understanding that this was to be a memorial to departed SASS members not a true place of worship.

 

It was also my understanding that it was to take the form of a typical (or Hollywood version) old west church. That generally would include a steeple and cross.

 

I don't have a problem with that.

 

If the question is, "Is it only for Christians?", I assume the answer would be a simple "No".

 

I would hope this does not turn into a major issue that would kill the project!

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Hi yall,I happen to be Christen just like most of the people in this great game and in this great country.I think more people would be offended if a cross is not put up on the chapel.I dont understand why some are so chapped over the cross.We dont have one at my place of worship---Christen and no cross at our place of worship you guessed it I am Mormon or Latter Day Saints if you prefer.I love my Lord and Savior and I know he loves ALL of us.Why are folks so offended when they dont beleive.The cross is reminder of what Christ did for ALL of us please put the cross up and please All of you come and feel His love or just come inside to get out of the weather.

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Before this thread deteriorates, and I expect it will, it was my understanding that this was to be a memorial to departed SASS members not a true place of worship.

 

It was also my understanding that it was to take the form of a typical (or Hollywood version) old west church. That generally would include a steeple and cross.

 

I don't have a problem with that.

 

If the question is, "Is it only for Christians?", I assume the answer would be a simple "No".

 

I would hope this does not turn into a major issue that would kill the project!

 

 

Well said Bob.

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This is a SASS Memorial. It intended to memorialize those members of this sport who have gone on before us, regardless of their individual religion. As a Christian, I do not need a cross on the top of a building to have a conversation with God, I don't even need a building. Nor would I feel unable to have that same conversation in a Synagogue at the funeral for a friend.

 

From the perspective of being an old west chapel, a cross would be appropriate, but it is certainly not necessary. If I ever get the opportunity to go to Founders Ranch and visit the Chapel, I will not be there for the purpose of staring up to see if there is a cross. I will be there to spend time in thought and remembrance of those whom I had known and have passed on. I doubt that I will ever know what most of them believed, nor would I care. That was their choice, not mine.

 

In my opinion, this building should be constructed to be inviting to all, just as this sport is open to all. Keep it as Non-Denominational as possible so that All Are Welcome! I would hate to think that any of my Jewish (or other religion) friends who participated in this sport did not feel welcome to have his/her name memorialized on the wall of the chapel. That is not the "Cowboy Way" as I understand it!

 

 

Dogmeat Dad

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I can see the faces of the 'congregation' in the first pew probabaly lookin' like:

 

:unsure::rolleyes:-_-:P:DB):angry::mellow::ph34r:

 

G (the guy with the glasses) G ~ :FlagAm:

 

We got all kinds - don't we..

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And why not have the cross? If it doesn't have meaning for you, no problem - it means nothing. If it does, no problem - it means something. If yer bent - there's likely several buildings on site with no cross you can go into.

 

I am so burnt out on PC crap with folks looking for a reason to be PO'd. How about you spend the effort looking for things NOT to be PO'd about?

 

CR

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An interesting topic and one that will be argued and discussed just like most of the topics that are not clear cut. I don't respond to most of these issues that arise for fear of the ire that surrounds many of the religious/political threads that end up being pulled from this forum, but I do have an opinion.

 

First, I was raised as a strict, church going Catholic boy, complete with being an altar boy, helping clean the church on Saturdays, and never missing mass on Sunday. I left the strict confines of the church doctrine when I was drafted back in 1969. When I left the nest and began meeting many different men/women, with various backgrounds, I was also able to begin meeting many different faiths. The friendships I made enabled me to visit many different churches, all with distinctive symbols that allowed those outside the buildings to recognize them as a place of worship. I was never, ever turned away, but was welcomed as a guest in all of the churches. I did not feel put upon to accept any specific worship, but rather used my time in the building to reflect in my own way.

 

The "chapel" that is being constructed is a building to honor those men and women with whom we shared a passion, if and when I go there to visit, I will not be there to worship, but to reflect on their lives and my own as well. I am wondering how we will identify that building if some form of identification is not apparent on the outside. I donated my money to a "chapel"....not a temple, not a synagogue. I suspect that a sign outside that said something to the effect of "Cowboy Memorial Chapel" would suffice, but I feel that we would not be doing justice to the building itself by not in some way signifying we would like this building to be one that is special in some way. Nothing evokes reflection and introspection as a holy place, whether that place is inside a building or outside on sacred ground.

 

Okay, there's my rant....I do not wish to offend anyone in any way.

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Why have a cross on the top of a chapel? So you KNOW it's a chapel. Kind of separates it from any other building, dontcha think?

 

Does a cross on the top of a building preclude anyone of any faith from entering that building and worshiping as they see fit? I don't see how.............................as long as they're not breaking any house rules.

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FWIW, I seem to remember talk about pews, how many, and holding cowboy church there before Sunday matches. Maybe in CC articles.

 

Sometimes I think Tex sits in the evenings chuckling about the controversy his latest column has raised here on the wire. And then sets to debise how to do the same with the next months column....

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Interesting. On some of the photos there may or may not be a cross, or it had been recently removed. Plus, almost all of those were modern photos. You would need to research drawings and photos from the period to get a true feel for it.

 

But here is a quick test - think of an old west town, now picture the church/chapel - first impression - do you see it with a cross or not? My guess is that the overwhelming majority of people will picture "that little white church" with a cross on it.

 

Of course, there is Hipshots idea of a church.

 

 

http://www.icollector.com/images/1659/18554/18554_0371a_3_lg.jpg

 

I always looked forward to the Easter and Christmas strips by Mr. Lynde. Fantastic artist. And seems to be the inspiration for a lot of SASS naming practices.

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Why have a cross on the top of a chapel? So you KNOW it's a chapel. Kind of separates it from any other building, dontcha think?

 

Does a cross on the top of a building preclude anyone of any faith from entering that building and worshiping as they see fit? I don't see how.............................as long as they're not breaking any house rules.

 

You mean so that you can tell it from the school or the courthouse?

 

 

FWIW, I seem to remember talk about pews, how many, and holding cowboy church there before Sunday matches. Maybe in CC articles.

 

 

Now there, on the idea of pews, I hold that a proper church doesn't have them. Pews are a fairly modern addition to churches, didn't come in until the Protestant Reformation. Until then churches had very limited seating for the sick and infirm (and for the grand high mucky-mucks). One stood in the presence of The King of All. But, for an 1870s or 1880s western US, pews - or more likely benches - would not be out of place.

 

Or some pews for families who bought them. I seem to recall coming across some commentary that in Charleston, SC some free men of color had bought pews for themselves and their families in the 1840s, and there was no friction between them and the white members of the congregation.

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IF the United States of America is still a Christian nation then a cross belongs up there.

 

If the USA ain't no longer a Christian nation then put a whatever...

 

 

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This is a SASS Memorial. It intended to memorialize those members of this sport who have gone on before us, regardless of their individual religion. As a Christian, I do not need a cross on the top of a building to have a conversation with God, I don't even need a building. Nor would I feel unable to have that same conversation in a Synagogue at the funeral for a friend.

 

From the perspective of being an old west chapel, a cross would be appropriate, but it is certainly not necessary. If I ever get the opportunity to go to Founders Ranch and visit the Chapel, I will not be there for the purpose of staring up to see if there is a cross. I will be there to spend time in thought and remembrance of those whom I had known and have passed on. I doubt that I will ever know what most of them believed, nor would I care. That was their choice, not mine.

 

In my opinion, this building should be constructed to be inviting to all, just as this sport is open to all. Keep it as Non-Denominational as possible so that All Are Welcome! I would hate to think that any of my Jewish (or other religion) friends who participated in this sport did not feel welcome to have his/her name memorialized on the wall of the chapel. That is not the "Cowboy Way" as I understand it!

 

 

Dogmeat Dad

 

 

+1

 

and if you NEED a cross, feel free to bring your own. ;)

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Me no comprenda!! Did not know there was an issue, it's a Chapel, why can it not have a cross?? Once I recieve my CC then I might know what's going on. :wacko:

DJ rule #1 No CC topics on the wire untill he recieves his :angry:

 

Jefro :ph34r:

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The original idea behind this building was to create a place to memorialize those cowboys and cowgirls who haved passed on. I'm pretty sure if you were able to find out, and you won't, not all of them were Christians.

 

The US Military now recognizes all beliefs and provides headstones to our fallen heros that represent their beliefs. Are they being politically correct. No, they want to insure that everyone has a choice. How would you feel if your Budhist son or daughter was killed in action and your choice was a cross or the Star of David? Are they any less of an American?

 

As to holding services in the building, it will seat about 50 people. What about the other 670 or more people who are at the match? Who chooses who can come and who can't?

 

How about no pews, a few chairs or benches and we focus on it being a place to remember, in your own way, the names on the wall.

 

Someone said, 'Does a cross on the top of a building preclude anyone of any faith from entering that building and worshiping as they see fit? I don't see how.............................as long as they're not breaking any house rules.'

 

Again who's rules.................ahhhhhhhh why Christian rules. Freedom of religion must surely mean freedom to choose to be a Christian.

 

"Cowboy Memorial" No need to put anything on the end of that. As in Pearl Harbor Memorial, Lincoln Memorial, Jefferson Memorial.

 

And Matthew, the US isn't a Christian nation. Its a nation that allows each and everyone the freedom to choose, to speak what they must, and to believe in what they must. Otherwise why are we here?

 

Let this place represent all people and stop worrying about having to put up some Icon that lays claim to the place.

 

Ike

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