Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

To Have a Cross or Not...


J.P.Sloe , SASS # 23506

Recommended Posts

Every reference to this from this website has this thing listed as a Chapel.

Look at the SASS homepage at the bottom. Cowboy Chapel.

The link in manatee's post has part of its url as Chapel.

So it must be a chapel.

Or is it being misrepresented?

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 212
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Ya know, if Tex had not put the article in the CC and a cross was put on the "building" during construcion, I bet we would not be having this conversation and no one would have been the wiser....sheesh.

Link to post
Share on other sites

If the chapel doesn't get a religious symbol on the outside like a cross it might smell a lot like a bait and switch to many of those that donated. 20 years ago this would probably not have been a serious issue. With so many areas of the world (including the US) attacking religious symbols including crosses lately, the installation of religious symbols has become important to a lot of Americans/Cowboys.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875

I was doing some research. I may be missing it but it appeared to me that the Air Force, Army and Naval Academy chapels to not have an exterior cross large enough to be easily noticed on photgraphs.

 

Also saw that the oldest church in Manhattan does not have a cross. When it was built, such a thing was seen as idolatrous.

 

My how the pendulum swings from no cross because it violated Chrsitian belief to no cross because it may offend non-Christian belief.

 

I find the Jefferson quote posted earlier to be most appropriate.

 

Very Best Regards All,

BJT

 

 

Inside or out, in the military, the cross is a very present religious symbol. Even all of our officers who are Chaplains wear crosses to identify their position.

 

There are quite a few Chapels on Marine Corps Base Camp Pendleton for those wanting a place of worship.

 

Here's a picture Father Vincent R. Capodanno Memorial Chapel in San Mateo (62 area) at Camp Pendleton. The home of the 5th Marines.

 

http://www.kilo35usmc.org/commem/2000/photos/Pic00053.jpg

 

Heree's a link to the oldest still in use wooden Chapel in U.S. Army. Note the crosses in the front and back of the building.

 

http://www.monroe.army.mil/Monroe/sites/installation/religious.aspx

 

Here's the 1830s Saint Francis Chapel in Warner Springs (1994) after restoration of the west wall. One of many historic sites in San Diego County.

 

http://sohosandiego.org/reflections/2006-1/images/0-lisbethachristensen.jpg

 

We should remember that in the 1800's, for those entering a town whether they were pioneers passing through or ranchers and farmers and townsfolk, seeing a cross on a building in the distance was a sign of hope and reassurance that both civilization and like minded people were nearby.

 

My wife also brought up something to me in that Cowboys "are" very religious. And she has a point, "Cowboy Church" services always come before the start of most Rodeos on Sunday mornings.

 

So why not recognise this. The cross is a symbol of hope, and remember it is not just a regigious symbol. The cross was first painted on the sides of ambulance wagons for that reason, as a sign of hope and care.

 

Check out these Australians with their mule driven ambulance

 

http://www.melbournecupeducation.com.au/verve/_resources/Ambulance_635px.jpg

 

The red cross was used as a symbol of sign of hope and care.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I am not one to talk alot about things on the wire. Read most posts and consider the thoughts that are expressed. This one I find bothered me. I was one of those that contributed to a "Chapel" not a Community center. When I sent my funds, as meager as they were, I envisioned a white building with a bell and a cross. Guess I should have waited to see the final plans, not just the "artist's" concept. My bad...but won't happen again. I have never been in a chapel, church or other "religious" structure that wasn't open to everyone. But I am getting older and out of touch and this PC stuff has me baffled. (sarcasm to follow) So it is my sincere prayer that I have not offended anyone by suggesting that the chapel should have a cross. (sarcasm ended)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Artist rendering Larsen? Looks like a photograph to me. And....as it's at the bottom of the SASS Chapel page, it certainly leads me to believe that the final product is gonna look like the photograph. Or is that part of our fantasy sport too?

 

In any event, I don't think my confusion is delusion. I believe that the advertising supports the idea of a Christian chapel. Christian.....that's with A CROSS. For cryin out loud!

 

What my personal beliefs are really don't matter here. But

 

I stand with the cross crowd.

 

Promises should not be second guessed by an editor.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Do some research. U.S. Military officers who represent a certain faith wear the symbol of that faith. Christian, Jew, Budhist, and Islam. So even today's military recognizes freedom of choice. They all do not wear a cross.

 

Friend, just as a Christian chaplain would gladly associate with/pray for a Jew or Muslim, so are all welcome in a Christian chapel. Walking in to a chapel adorned with a cross does not mean you are having Christianity forced upon you. You are free to believe as you wish, whether you come inside or not.

 

Just something to think about.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Artist rendering Larsen? Looks like a photograph to me. And....as it's at the bottom of the SASS Chapel page, it certainly leads me to believe that the final product is gonna look like the photograph. Or is that part of our fantasy sport too?

 

In any event, I don't think my confusion is delusion. I believe that the advertising supports the idea of a Christian chapel. Christian.....that's with A CROSS. For cryin out loud!

 

What my personal beliefs are really don't matter here. But

 

I stand with the cross crowd.

 

Promises should not be second guessed by an editor.

 

Sounds like all that has been done so far is some grading. The final drawings weren't even done in time for anything to be put in the most recent Chronicle. CGI is a wonderful thing, makes dinosaurs come alive. As noted, however, this has clearly been sold as a Chapel.

 

http://www.coyotedroppings.com/

Link to post
Share on other sites

Seems ta me that it has been put across as a Chapel Complete with a CROSS ....

 

And It seems that's what folks were showing suport for, when they gave of their resourses ....

 

To pull a switch now Ain't Cowboy ....

 

Put the cross on the top, like the idea that was sold to the folks ....

 

 

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

Link to post
Share on other sites

Like most of us do in times of concern - write your legislator...well, the Wild Bunch I guess in this case.

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

 

Yes, I would Agree GG, that's about the only thing anyone could do ?

I do want to point out, that unless this has changed, at the Entryway ( where the public walks through )

at Founders Ranch, there was a Cross on the top of that facade.

Now I haven't been down there in a couple a years and

things, well they do change, so maybe I'm wrong on this. But seems ta' me,

IF, No Cross is going ta' be on the Memorial Chapel,

Maybe that one has been taken down ????

Wimpy

Link to post
Share on other sites

Wimpy is right. Scroll down to the stagecoach picture here and look in the background.

 

Does that mean all of Founder's ranch is for Christians only? Somebody better tell Tex a Druid has snuck in there and shot a few times. Gotta tighten security!

 

Thanks Wimpy,

BJT

 

 

Yes, I would Agree GG, that's about the only thing anyone could do ?

I do want to point out, that unless this has changed, at the Entryway ( where the public walks through )

at Founders Ranch, there was a Cross on the top of that facade.

Now I haven't been down there in a couple a years and

things, well they do change, so maybe I'm wrong on this. But seems ta' me,

IF, No Cross is going ta' be on the Memorial Chapel,

Maybe that one has been taken down ????

Wimpy

Link to post
Share on other sites

First, I think the chapel should definitely be open to all. Anything else would not be supporting freedom of religion.

 

But I also stand with the cross crowd.

Nothing wrong with a symbol that represents the vast majority of people of that time - and even now. To deny the majority in favor of the minority is actually against freedom of religion.

 

Also, for many generations in all of the America's and Europe, the cross has been a symbol of memorial to those who went before us.

 

So it is a bit too much PC for me.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Let’s talk architecture.

 

If you’re looking to be offended then research the origins and history of the steeple or tower commonly seen on “meeting houses”. There should be enough there to get your knickers knotted up.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875

Do some research. U.S. Military officers who represent a certain faith wear the symbol of that faith. Christian, Jew, Budhist, and Islam. So even today's military recognizes freedom of choice. They all do not wear a cross.

 

 

I don't have to "do research". Fact is that 80 - 90% (or more) of the Chaplains wear a cross because 80 -90% of our Military Chaplains are Christian. Why? Well because 90% or more of our troops are Christian.

 

http://www.gofbw.com/userimages/photo/3944.p6-chaplain.jpg

 

Are their Jewish and Muslim Chaplains today? Yes. Do they wear a cross on their uniforms? No. Can they conduct a Christian service? The Jewish Chaplain will conduct a Christian Service, but Muslim Chaplains will not because of their faith. Here's a pic of a Muslim Chaplain in Gitmo, note the cressant moon.

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/34/US_Navy_020125-N-6967M-501_U.S._Navy_Muslim_Chaplain_Camp_X-Ray.jpg

 

Can Christian Chaplains conduct administer religious rights and ceremonies to other faiths? Yes. Why, because Christian Chaplains are Chaplains to all even if they are not of the Christian faith.

 

I have seen a Chaplain finish a Protesant Service and then reach into a box and pull out of the needed accoutrement of a Catholic Priest and hold Mass. And yes, I have seen the same Chaplain conduct a Jewish ceremony for the Jews in our unit.

 

Here's a picture of an Air Force Chaplain's Field Kit.

 

http://www.atterburybakalarairmuseum.org/Chaplains_Field_Kit.jpg

 

Here's a picture of a U.S.Army Chaplain in Iraq, please note the cross.

 

http://www.stripes.com/polopoly_fs/1.102747.1274121286!/image/4007476698.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_490/4007476698.jpg

 

This Admiral is the top Chaplain in the U.S.Navy, please note the cross on his sleeve.

 

http://www.sonshineministries.org/gallery/leaders/images/RDML%20Darold%20F.%20Bigger%20US%20Navy%20%20Deputy%20Chief%20of%20Chaplains.jpg

 

As a Platoon Sergeant, I was very aware of what my men needed spiritually. And as a Company Gunny, I assure you that I made sure my men had a Chaplain avalable when they needed one.

 

A cross on a Chapel is fitting. It is not a Community Center. It is not a Mosgue or a Synagogue. A Chapel denotes a Christian place of worship.

 

If Tex and some others on here want their own Community Center, like the "Y" which has now stopped using "MCA" as to not offend others and draw in more business, then do it. But just don't be hypocrites about it by calling it a Chapel when you don't want a Chapel.

 

Heck, if he doesn't want a Christian Chapel then maybe Tex should see if he can sell his memorial plagues to people who want to nail them to an oak tree so that all of the Druids in SASS can go dance under it when the moon is at it's

proper phase.

 

:FlagAm:

Link to post
Share on other sites

Where two or more are gathered together there He is also. The cross is optional. I dare say Jesus Himself may regard the cross as if not idolatrous but non-essential.

 

Let it go, pards. If we can be more inclusive without a symbolic object that's the way we should go. We do not NEED a cross up on top of the steeple. What we need is to be more loving and accepting of each other.

 

Symbols and other stuff can be brought in for certain ceremonies. They don't need to be permanent fixtures on high. The building should be for memorializing our pards who have rode over the ridge to scout out the other side for the rest of us, not a bone of contention amongst ourselves.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I dare say Jesus Himself may regard the cross as if not idolatrous but non-essential.

 

Given the scene in the Garden of Gethsemene, I'd bet Jesus has had as much of "The Cross" as he can stomach.

 

Too bad he doesn't get a vote, here.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Calling this project a bait and switch and saying people have been snookered is a bit unfair. This cross controversy just came up. The project has been under way for some time.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Given the scene in the Garden of Gethsemene, I'd bet Jesus has had as much of "The Cross" as he can stomach.

 

Too bad he doesn't get a vote, here.

 

Actually - knowing what I know from the Bible (and my faith) about Jesus and how much love He has for us...he would do it all over again ;)

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

Link to post
Share on other sites

Jesus ,,, Repetedly reminded his followers of the cross !!!

 

And we were told to pick-up our cross and follow him ....

 

THE LORD JESUS does not shun the cross ,,,,,,,,,,, rather the cross points the way to god ...

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

Link to post
Share on other sites

I am just dumbfounded anyone would be "offended" by a Cowboy Chapel with a Cross on top????

 

A chapel is open to all, why is the cross offensive??

 

Give me a break.

 

What is this country coming to with this extreme Political Correctness??

Link to post
Share on other sites

THE LORD JESUS does not shun the cross ,,,,,,,,,,, rather the cross points the way to god ...

 

 

Up, left, or right?

Link to post
Share on other sites

I am just dumbfounded anyone would be "offended" by a Cowboy Chapel with a Cross on top????

 

A chapel is open to all, why is the cross offensive??

 

Give me a break.

 

What is this country coming to with this extreme Political Correctness??

 

Its not being politically correct its being respectful to the beliefs of all. By your rational if a religious symbol (the Cross) in not offensive then why not a Star of David or a Menorah, or even a Buddhist prayer wheel.

It is a non denominational chapel not a church and all should be welcome there

Link to post
Share on other sites

Let’s talk architecture.

 

If you’re looking to be offended then research the origins and history of the steeple or tower commonly seen on “meeting houses”. There should be enough there to get your knickers knotted up.

 

True, however like many things in the history of the church, things that once were offensive is turned toward a heavenward slant. Some old hymns were once old english drinking songs. The steeples now seem to point a person heavenward toward God.

 

Myself, I favor a cross but I would rather see the steeple. If it would satisfy the powers that be, put something that looks like a cross and call it a lightning rod. That would work for the PC crowd.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I've got an idea that should make the majority happy

 

On top put a dome and call it a mosque!

 

 

Sarcastic mode on

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

(1) "A chapel is a building used by Christians, members of other religions, and sometimes interfaith communities, as a place of fellowship and worship. A church, college, hospital, palace, prison or funeral home, located on board a military or commercial ship, or it may be an entirely free-standing building, sometimes with its own grounds."

 

(2) For Tex to suggest that the Memorial Chapel not have some sort of religous symbol means that it is NOT a Chapel, ie: place of worship.

 

I added the numbering.

 

You've lost me. How do you get from (1) to (2)? I didn't see anything in what you quoted that states chapels have crosses. In fact, the passage you quote states specifically that other religions use chapels, too. It seems to me that a "chapel," (not a "church") could mount a Star of David, a crescent, or even a Hindu swastika.

 

Seems to me that most of the arguing is caused by thinking that "chapel" and "church" are two words for the same thing. They're not, necessarily. A chapel is one thing, a church (synogogue, mosque, temple) is something else.

 

Actually, the more I see of religious wrangling, the more I think John Lennon was right.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't have to "do research". Fact is that 80 - 90% (or more) of the Chaplains wear a cross because 80 -90% of our Military Chaplains are Christian. Why? Well because 90% or more of our troops are Christian.

 

http://www.gofbw.com/userimages/photo/3944.p6-chaplain.jpg

 

Are their Jewish and Muslim Chaplains today? Yes. Do they wear a cross on their uniforms? No. Can they conduct a Christian service? The Jewish Chaplain will conduct a Christian Service, but Muslim Chaplains will not because of their faith. Here's a pic of a Muslim Chaplain in Gitmo, note the cressant moon.

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/34/US_Navy_020125-N-6967M-501_U.S._Navy_Muslim_Chaplain_Camp_X-Ray.jpg

 

Can Christian Chaplains conduct administer religious rights and ceremonies to other faiths? Yes. Why, because Christian Chaplains are Chaplains to all even if they are not of the Christian faith.

 

I have seen a Chaplain finish a Protesant Service and then reach into a box and pull out of the needed accoutrement of a Catholic Priest and hold Mass. And yes, I have seen the same Chaplain conduct a Jewish ceremony for the Jews in our unit.

 

Here's a picture of an Air Force Chaplain's Field Kit.

 

http://www.atterburybakalarairmuseum.org/Chaplains_Field_Kit.jpg

 

Here's a picture of a U.S.Army Chaplain in Iraq, please note the cross.

 

http://www.stripes.com/polopoly_fs/1.102747.1274121286!/image/4007476698.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_490/4007476698.jpg

 

This Admiral is the top Chaplain in the U.S.Navy, please note the cross on his sleeve.

 

http://www.sonshineministries.org/gallery/leaders/images/RDML%20Darold%20F.%20Bigger%20US%20Navy%20%20Deputy%20Chief%20of%20Chaplains.jpg

 

As a Platoon Sergeant, I was very aware of what my men needed spiritually. And as a Company Gunny, I assure you that I made sure my men had a Chaplain avalable when they needed one.

 

A cross on a Chapel is fitting. It is not a Community Center. It is not a Mosgue or a Synagogue. A Chapel denotes a Christian place of worship.

 

If Tex and some others on here want their own Community Center, like the "Y" which has now stopped using "MCA" as to not offend others and draw in more business, then do it. But just don't be hypocrites about it by calling it a Chapel when you don't want a Chapel.

 

Heck, if he doesn't want a Christian Chapel then maybe Tex should see if he can sell his memorial plagues to people who want to nail them to an oak tree so that all of the Druids in SASS can go dance under it when the moon is at it's

proper phase.

 

:FlagAm:

 

Howdy, Pards,

I believe most U.S. military chaplains (possibly excepting the Muslims???)are cross-trained to minister to all faiths, so they can render aid and comfort to whoever needs it, under whatever circumstances occur. This is necessary because of the disparity of numbers of chaplains of various faiths. For example, there were only nine (9) Jewish chaplains in the entire U.S. Armed Forces, Army, Navy and Air Force. (I would imaging the number of Budhists in the military are even smaller.)

 

During WWII, when I was born, my late father was stationed in Puerto Rico, (before being transferred to the 42nd ID Rainbow Div). My mother was having problems, but Dad couldn't get leave to get back to see her. Dispite not being Catholic, he was good friends with the Catholic chaplain, who was able to get him a short emergency leave about 10 days after I was born.

 

Legend has it that at Pearl Harbor someone shouted to the chaplain, "Say a prayer for us, Padre!" Replied the chaplain, "Praise the Lord, And pass the ammunition!" (Probably an apocryphal story, but they made a song about it!)

 

Do what you want with the chapel, but let's NOT "balkainize" the SASS Wire!

 

Godspeed to those still in harm's way in the defense of Freedom EVERYWHERE! God Bless America! :FlagAm:

Link to post
Share on other sites

WOW! What a tempest in this teapot. Simply amazing what some folks will argue about.

 

 

Buena suerte,

eGG

 

(who always DID prefer Maryanne) :lol:

Link to post
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.