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To Have a Cross or Not...


J.P.Sloe , SASS # 23506

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Political correctness is a doctrine,fostered by a delusional,illogical minority,and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media,which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick-up a turd by the clean end...

R.J.Wiedemann Lt.Col.USMC Ret.

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

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1. On the SASS home page it is listed under "SASS Charities" as Cowboy Chapel.

 

2. A Chapel is a building used by Christians

 

3. SASS is about a sport based upon the old west of the United States of America

 

4. The United States of America was founded by a group of God fearing people who were mostly Christian.

I don't know if there were any Jews. I have seen no evidence that any of the founding fathers were Muslims, Buddhists, Shinto, etc.

 

5. The cross is a symbol of the Christian faith

 

Chapel should have a cross on the steeple !

 

But this will most likely be decided by the Wild Bunch. (In a PC way, it is a business.)

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YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

THAT plain enuff?

 

cheyenne

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Well, I got my CC today and read the article, the decision has already been made "...Consequently, the Cowboy Memorial Chapel will be devoid of religious symbols from any particular faith. ..."

 

That is not what I contributed money to nor what I have spent hours of my own time organizing fund raising efforts for. Might as well call it the "building for dead folks whose family have enough money to buy them a memorial plaque."

 

To quote a country song..."If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything"

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Well, I got my CC today and read the article, the decision has already been made "...Consequently, the Cowboy Memorial Chapel will be devoid of religious symbols from any particular faith. ..."

 

That is not what I contributed money to nor what I have spent hours of my own time organizing fund raising efforts for. Might as well call it the "building for dead folks whose family have enough money to buy them a memorial plaque."

 

To quote a country song..."If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything"

 

PLUS 1

 

Put tha cross on it!

 

 

RRR

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Have not read the cc yet so can't speak to the article.

 

That said of course it should have a cross on it. It is a chapel that will be open to all (as have been every church or chapel I have ever tried to enter) We are all Gods children regardless of our belief or non belief and are welcome and encouraged to enter into His house.

How many times must we dig out all the quotes from our founding fathers regarding the Christian foundations of this country? How many times are we going to bow down to the wailing and gnashing of teeth by those who say they are for "tolerance" or "diversity" for all, but are hell bent on wiping the very mention of our Creator from the face of this world? I for one would be thrilled to see the cross on the chapel and extend an invitation to all to come and visit.

 

Regards

 

:FlagAm:

 

Gateway Kid

 

By no means perfect only forgiven

 

 

AMEN Brother

CCBA

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FWIW

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapel

 

Boon Doggle, who thinks this country would not be in the mess it is today if we were not so politically correct.

 

 

I concur pard...

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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As a Mormon, descended from Mormons since 1849 (and among the first settlers in Logan and Cache Valley, Utah), I've never seen a cross on a Mormon church, but there really should be one on the Memorial Chapel. It marks a house of worship, not a denomination.

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Here is a chapel in California, built in 1811. It has been rebuilt twice, once in 1916 after it had collapsed during the 1906 earthquake. Here is a photo from before that rebuild:

 

http://trailhead.blogs.pressdemocrat.com/files/2009/09/fortross-150x150.jpg

 

This photo seems to have been taken in the 1950s or 1960s:

 

http://www.oca.org/Images/MissionVision/pg%2001-25/20.gif

 

Here is one, dated 1953. That "path" is US Hwy 1.

 

http://commons.orthodoxwiki.org/images/thumb/3/3e/Chapel-FortRoss_1953.jpg/300px-Chapel-FortRoss_1953.jpg

 

Then in 1970 it was destroyed in a fire, and has since been rebuilt.

 

http://pics.northbayhikes.com/intro_photos/home_page/1997/March%2009%3B%20Fort%20Ross%20Hike%3B%20Chapel%20Building.jpg

 

Just thought I would inject a different bit of history to this discussion.

 

ADDED:

 

To make the "wild west" connection even stronger, when the Russian-American Company was pulling out, it may or may not have been bought by one John Sutter:

 

The Russian-American Company consequently offered the settlement to various potential purchasers, and it was sold to John Sutter, a Mexican citizen of Swiss origin. Although the settlement was sold for a minuscule $30,000 to Sutter, Russian historians assert the sum was never paid; therefore, legal title of the settlement was never transferred to Sutter and still belongs to the Russian people.[16] A recent Sutter biography [17] however, asserts that Sutter's agent, Peter Burnett, paid the Russian-American Company agent William M.Steuart $19,788 in "notes and gold" on April 13th, 1849, thereby settling the outstanding debt for Fort Ross and Bodega.

 

Yes, THAT John Sutter. He acquired it for the lumber, had a lot of the buildings torn down and the wood shipped to his other place.

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As a Mormon, descended from Mormons since 1849 (and among the first settlers in Logan and Cache Valley, Utah), I've never seen a cross on a Mormon church, but there really should be one on the Memorial Chapel. It marks a house of worship, not a denomination.

 

 

Nice sentiment there Forty Rod but, I think it's a wasted effort. Apparently common sense need not apply. :blink:

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The Cowboy Memorial Taco Bell, kinda has a ring to it!

 

Of course not meaning any disrespect to any faith, just talking about the building here...

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I believe that a chapel needs a cross. The cross is the symbol of the resurrection and the atonement. It means that our Lord freely gave his life that ALL men may have have a shot at eternal life. Someone said earlier that we are not all Christians and that is true, but we all have freedom of religion because we are a Christian country. Like others here, I am a Mormon, we do not have have crosses on our churches but we do believe in the atonement of Christ. The cross is not the symbol of our religion because we celebrate the life of Christ. not the death. While the cross is usually thought of a Christian symbol, it is also a world wide sign of welcome to all.

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It's not our choice since we will not be the owners of the building whether a cross is put on it or not. It's the owners decision.

 

 

Very true. And, it is my choice to financially support or not support the owners decision.

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It's not our choice since we will not be the owners of the building whether a cross is put on it or not. It's the owners decision.

 

 

I consider those of us that donated our hard earned $$$ to this project to be owners.

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While the people who created the Declaration of Independence, Constitution, and the Bill of Rights were white, Christian Males using the logic expressed here we would need to go back to slavery, and take the right to vote away from women!!!!!

 

It says 'freedom of religion', 'all men are created equal','freedom from persecution', 'race creed or color'.

 

SASS welcomes all ages, sexes and abilities, why do we now need to exclude someone because they are not part of the Christian club?

 

I design chapels for hospitals. They all are designed to create a place for meditation, contimplation without any religious bias. When a service is held the Priest, Rabbi, Monk or whatever brings with them the icon which represents their religion.

Jumping to conclusions about the majority of the contributors being Christians is once again rationalization for your position. It has no foundation.

 

Since when did we become NCOWS or a historicaally correct organization. Just because churches had crosses on them doesn't mean we need to do it today. Of course if we want to go back to being historically correct about the chapel then we can reinstitute hatered for Jews, Protestants, Native Americans, etc. because thats what good Christians did back then.

 

I hate being politically correct as much as anyone, but this should be a place that welcomes all people, of all religions, beliefs and faiths. It's as simple as leaving Icons off of the building and letting those who enter worship in their way.

 

Otherwise BJT and I will be running around outside looking for a place that we can be welcomed.

 

Ike

 

Well it's just like our country being founded by Christian men and God being mentioned in numerous founding documents. Should all of those be thrown out with the bath water because of the atheists that may/may not exist in the country? Same with our chapel. Most of any pic's that you might see have a cross so by golly ours should definitely have one too! Just do a head count on this thread and you'll see that many more favor a cross than oppose one. Smithy.

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I ain't up on all the details of running a chapel but I was under the impression that non-believers was welcome. Ifn I came in to sit a spell and listen to the music and speechafying, you all wouldn't kick my hairy Druid backside out would ya?

 

Come to think on it a little, I expect Tex, for the proper ranch donation, would let me plant an oak tree somewhere on the range as long as my midnight dancing under the moon with mead did not drown out the Doolies on the hill.

 

The Chapel was the work of some dedicated people. I would think if there was enough support, there could also be a China Town with the appropriate temple.

 

Tex worries too much.

 

Shalom,

BJT

 

BJT, as long as your keep yore clothes on during the dance... :rolleyes:

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It's not our choice since we will not be the owners of the building whether a cross is put on it or not. It's the owners decision.

 

Was it made clear when the fund raising started that there would be no cross on it? As I asked earlier, how many people, when they see the word "chapel" get an image of the little white building with a steeple and a cross? And especially "memorial chapel."

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I'm going to take a risk here and chime in. I ain't SASS yet, and I don't consider myself a Christian. With that being said, for me it rather strains the limits of credibility to call it a Cowboy Memorial Chapel without a cross on top.

 

I had recently contemplated giving to the fund, because I recognized the importance of it to several people I have come to like and respect here in the cyber west, Grizzly Dave being most notable. Now, I think I will respectfully spend my money elsewhere.

 

We have indeed become a nation that is far too concerned with unintentionally saying something or doing something that might harm the sensitivities of others. This is very true when it comes to issues of religion, yes, particularly those other than Christianity. I believe we could all do with a healthy dose of Jeffersonian thought. "But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." If it bothers someone so much for a Chapel to have a cross on top, my opinion is that person should look inward to determine the reason it bothers them, rather than outward trying to destroy it.

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If it's a chapel, then it gets a cross.

And everyone is welcome to come to the cross.

 

If it's not a chapel, but some kind of memorial to dead members, then whatever; put up a cowboy target or a SASS badge or a giant cactus. Maybe crossed sixguns.

 

Just don't call it a chapel and raise funds for a chapel if it's not going to be a chapel.

 

That would be dishonest.

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Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875

IF the United States of America is still a Christian nation then a cross belongs up there.

 

If the USA ain't no longer a Christian nation then put a whatever...

 

+1

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You know, I am kind of surprised at this. Expected I would have strong feelings on this one, but after reading the previous posts, a number of thoughts came to mind.

 

Over the years, a lot of churches, big and small, synagogues, temples and mosques have crossed my bows. Raised a good Catholic, I have been welcomed into many different places of worship and attended different worship traditions in some different places: an 11th century stone church in Hertfordshire, UK, a bamboo mosque in Zambales, Philippines, Mormon churches in California and New Mexico (thanks Scouting pards), a Synagogue in Dublin, a crew's lounge on a 1943 fleet oiler (tanker) and the forecastles of two different aircraft carriers, as well as open air services in state, county, and national parks, a Russian Orthodox Church in Votkinsk, Urdmurt Republic of Russia, and St. Peter's Square Rome. A number of US Navy chapels visited have been used for Catholic, Protestant, and Jewish services, all on the same weekend.

 

I well remember being perplexed and yeah, even offended to learn the Presbyterian Whalers Church in Sag Harbor, NY (steeple lost in the 1938 hurricane) lacked a proper cross and had a spire instead. And the first time I saw the Roman Catholic cross turned over to present its figure-less side to the incoming Protestant crowd in a Navy base chapel, it was a small shock.

 

Guess I would personally prefer for the steeple of the Cowboy Chapel to have a simple Roman Cross, but my viewing of historical photos tells me Cross or Not, either way would be historically correct. And I do know that the history of New Mexico was made by Spanish Catholic Conquistadors (whether their behavior was Christian or not is a discussion for another time and place), native animists and pagans, Jewish settlers and merchants, Protestant transients and settlers of all denominational varieties, Mormons and many others I sadly omit out of my own ignorance. Sure and wasn't the greatest friend and financier of Archbishop Lamy of Santa Fe a Jewish man?

 

Seems to me, shat would be most important is the intent and the purpose rather than the language, rituals or ethnicity of the participants who planned to use the building to commune with God as they know Him.

 

Your mileage may vary. Void where prohibited, taxed, restricted or subject to pat-down searches. Dang, I hate Political Correctness, too. So sign me "Perplexed in Albuquerque"

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I haven't read the article yet, but this seems ridiculous. OF COURSE there should be a cross. I've belonged to a "non-denominational" church...and it had a big cross. Didn't prevent anyone from attending.

 

As one who has supported the CHAPEL construction financially and just proposed a club fundraiser for the project, I'm deeply disappointed. Will be rethinking that fundraiser!

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I don't have a dog in this fight, if only because I have no plans to travel to the area and will probably never see the building. So, from an Outsider's perspective:

 

I can buy the argument that a cross is historically correct, no problem. If *that* is why you want a cross on top, then fine.

 

If, however, you want a cross on top because "this is a Christian nation," "Christ is the God of All," yada yada, as has been said above, then it will be a Christian building. You might say that the building is open to all, and Thank You for the invite, but the implication is that non-Christians are going to be nothing more than guests in someone else's house and, as someone also said above, guests are welcome "as long as they obey the rules." The owners can chuck them out at will. At the very least, the non-Christians will know they're not "home."

 

Minor point: The historical photos that have been mentioned, I bet, are of churches, not chapels. There are and, I bet again, were plenty of chapels without crosses.

 

Come to think of it, there are and were plenty of churches with simple spires, without crosses.

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Perhaps we're answering a question that hasn't been asked yet? Why wouldn't SASS want to erect a cross, have they said officially?

 

BSD

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BJT, as long as your keep yore clothes on during the dance... :rolleyes:

 

 

I suppose I can make that accomodation. Could be dangerous on the range with all them folks shooting after gouging their eyes out!

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...

 

To quote a country song..."If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything"

 

Too funny, I read a bit more of the CC last night, in Tex's Column on ethics and morals right before the Chapel cross one... He quotes the exact same country song in his reasoning for publishing Col. Dan's political column even though he receives complaints about it.

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I suppose I can make that accomodation. Could be dangerous on the range with all them folks shooting after gouging their eyes out!

 

Will you be providing the ice picks or will it be a BYOIP?

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