To Have a Cross or Not...

[Wes Durn, SASS#18998]

What gets me is the people, non-believers as it were, are so upset about something they don't believe in in the first place. If a cross upsets you, think of it as a decoration with no meaning, as some have said, and go about your life in a friendly, non-argumentative manner. For those of us that do believe, we will do the same. I will not try, I hope, to push my beliefs on you, if you will try not to PC your non-beliefs on me. Put it this way...At the end if I am wrong in my belief of God, it has cost you nothin to leave me alone to my time in church, prayer, chapel, etc. However, if I am right and you are wrong..........

 

It seems you are forgeting that it isn't strictly non-believers that may or may not have an issue. Indeed, the bigger concern would seem to be that those of other faiths may feel exlcuded or what have you. I am a hardcore nonbeliever myself, but personally wouldn't be the least offended by a cross and would, moreover, rather see the majority of folks happy than compromise made for what MIGHT offend the few.(That is to say..."What Geronimo Jim and Manatee said!!")

 

As for Pascal's Wager...well, that's a whole different discussion, isn't it?!?

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

Yes, it HAS been a cordial and energetic exchange of views. As a non-christian, though, I am amazed at the depth of feeling about what appears to me to be a trivial subject (beggin' everyone's pardon). I am reminded of the Lilliputians' wars between the Big Endians and the Little Endians.....

 

I am ducking the tomatoes, now.

 

eGG

 

Ah - that's why you don't understand amigo...

 

GG ~

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

Obama ,,,, Got in because ,,,,,, Most were afraid to offend anyone .....

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

[Henry McKenna #700L]

I still say that this is NOT about being PC, as many have interpretted, but about being welcoming and hospitable to all our pards. Since part of the intent of the project was to have a place to honor those who have moved on to the last range, and since some of them may have followed a different path than that of Jesus, then the cross is a bit inappropriate.

Also, as a Cristian, I have seen just this sort of superficial isssue cause bad feelings and distract congregations and others from the positive message that Cristianity has to offer. This is NOT important to the peaceful place to hold services (Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Masonic(perhaps?), etc) and remember those we rode with. Let it go.

 

Now, had the cross been planned from the start and this was clearly a Christian Chapel to be built by Christians for Christians and someone complained after the fact....well then we'd have to support the cross and keep it there. Such is not the case and I ask you all to consider this and support the chapel as planned. That's what I will do. Look forward to singing a hymn or two with some of y'all!

[Joey Jingles]

As children we folded our hands and fingers and played; "This is the Church, this is the Steeple; Open the doors and look at ALL the people". The Steeple is a visual message seen from afar designating a house of worship from the other buildings in its proximity. It represents a spot of love and peace and forgiveness during the days of our human Race !

[Geronimo Jim SASS # 21775]

Stop and ask yourself what is the motivation of someone who would write a letter and complain about this? Would 99% of Christians do the same if they were in another country? Think people.

[Dog Ears Wilson, SASS #77948]

As children we folded our hands and fingers and played; "This is the Church, this is the Steeple; Open the doors and look at ALL the people". The Steeple is a visual message seen from afar designating a house of worship from the other buildings in its proximity. It represents a spot of love and peace and forgiveness during the days of our human Race !

 

Well... "cross" don't rhyme with "people".

 

I, too, would like to commend the Wire folks for their civilized and respectful discussion of a very ticklish subject.

[Montana Slick, SASS #64415]

I don't hold the "Title Deed" on the building so it's none of my business what they do with it.

 

I just like to meet new and old frins and have a good time with my guns missing targets and guzzeling a lot of water.

I also like flippin burgers too...hold the hotdawgs.

 

Little Prayer here..."Lets Eat"

[Ellie Oakley, SASS #45229]

This is a SASS Memorial. It intended to memorialize those members of this sport who have gone on before us, regardless of their individual religion. As a Christian, I do not need a cross on the top of a building to have a conversation with God, I don't even need a building. Nor would I feel unable to have that same conversation in a Synagogue at the funeral for a friend.

 

From the perspective of being an old west chapel, a cross would be appropriate, but it is certainly not necessary. If I ever get the opportunity to go to Founders Ranch and visit the Chapel, I will not be there for the purpose of staring up to see if there is a cross. I will be there to spend time in thought and remembrance of those whom I had known and have passed on. I doubt that I will ever know what most of them believed, nor would I care. That was their choice, not mine.

 

In my opinion, this building should be constructed to be inviting to all, just as this sport is open to all. Keep it as Non-Denominational as possible so that All Are Welcome! I would hate to think that any of my Jewish (or other religion) friends who participated in this sport did not feel welcome to have his/her name memorialized on the wall of the chapel. That is not the "Cowboy Way" as I understand it!

 

 

Dogmeat Dad

 

 

+1 Thank you.

[Ellie Oakley, SASS #45229]

Whew - we've made it to page 6. I'm proud that this has gone so well. Thought I would just throw my $.02 in.

 

As a SASS member, I support Founders Ranch. If we get together to set up a memorial for someone I know in the chapel, I would always honor the fallen cowboy by helping raise the money for the memorial. I would understand if the chapel is centered on a particular faith - I live in the U.S. and that's the way things are. I don't get offended when someone wishes me a Merry Christmas, as long as they don't get offended when I wish them a Happy Hanukkah.

 

As a member of the Jewish faith - if there is a cross on the chapel, I would consider it a church, and would ask that I not be memorialized there. It just wouldn't feel right - I hadn't led my life that way and I wouldn't want my family to see it.

[Montana Slick, SASS #64415]

Whew - we've made it to page 6. I'm proud that this has gone so well. Thought I would just throw my $.02 in.

 

As a SASS member, I support Founders Ranch. If we get together to set up a memorial for someone I know in the chapel, I would always honor the fallen cowboy by helping raise the money for the memorial. I would understand if the chapel is centered on a particular faith - I live in the U.S. and that's the way things are. I don't get offended when someone wishes me a Merry Christmas, as long as they don't get offended when I wish them a Happy Hanukkah.

 

As a member of the Jewish faith - if there is a cross on the chapel, I would consider it a church, and would ask that I not be memorialized there. It just wouldn't feel right - I hadn't led my life that way and I wouldn't want my family to see it.

 

Same here, thanks for posting.

MS

MOT

[Conejo Kid #51342]

If the cross is in your heart -- do you really need one on the chapel????

 

CK

[Sixgun Shorty, SASS #35717 Life]

Received my Chronicle yesterday and as usual read the article by Tex right off. Then I turned the page and read the next article he wrote about the Cowboy Memorial Chapel. Needless to say I am deeply disapointed and P*****. He mentioned a "member recently asked a poignant question, "is the SASS Chapel just for Christians?'" I don't know of to many Chapels that were not erected by Christians, and in so doing put a cross on the steeple. The only Christian religion I know of that does not have a cross on its houses of worship are the Mormon or Latter Day Saints. Since when do we as SASS members bow to the whims of a few, or are we just being politically correct? As he stated in this article, this country was founded by Christian men, not Buddists or Muslim or Shinto. I respect these religions, but I have to ask how many non-Christian men and women helped put this Chapel on the road to get it erected? Are we being politically correct so that the ACLU will stay out of or lives? I don't know about anyone else, but that Chapel should have a cross on its steeple.

After all it is not a Catholic Chapel or a Methodist or Baptist or Lutheran Chapel, it is in my view a Christian Chapel and should have a cross even if it is a Greek Orthodox cross.

I'll get off my soap box here.

 

 

Interesting..this country was founded ONLY by Christians? Man, are you in the dark..This country was founded on Judaeo Christian Principles...Not Christians or Christian principles only.....Jews played a huge role in the founding of our country including financing the American Revolution! The Rothschild Bank in France lent the ContinentaL Congress funds to separate from British tyranny and indeed finacned the Revolution

 

But to answer your queston about the SASS Church..In my view, It must be muti denomentaional..if you have a Cross, you must also have a Star of David

Best thing is have no religious icon at all on the structure thereby showing SASS's impartiality.

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

Interesting..this country was founded ONLY by Christians? Man, are you in the dark..This country was founded on Judaeo Christian Principles...Not Christians or Christian principles only.....Jews played a huge role in the founding of our country including financing the American Revolution! The Rothschild Bank in France lent the ContinentaL Congress funds to separate from British tyranny and indeed finacned the Revolution

 

But to answer your queston about the SASS Church..In my view, It must be muti denomentaional..if you have a Cross, you must also have a Star of David

Best thing is have no religious icon at all on the structure thereby showing SASS's impartiality.

 

not as SASS Church - it's the Cowboy Memorial Chapel.

 

If it was a SASS Church we would be worshipping cowboys, guns, and maybe good ole baked beans

 

....many Christians do show impartiality - it's a 'love your neighbor' thing

 

Anyway, this reminds me of my pastor's book - Judiac Christianity

 

http://www.buy.com/prod/judaic-christianity-the-one-true-religion/q/loc/106/31299941.html

 

and yes, our country truly was founded on Judeo-Christian values - that is fact indeed.

 

GG ~

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Frankly...too bad SASS didn't just fund the thing themselves...make it a Memorial Hall and Chapel. Build the building with an hugh rotunda for the memorial aspect, and then a chapel...something like you'd find in a hospital or something.

 

But...guess it's just cheaper to have other pay for it...others that have a wide ranging view of how it should be done.

 

Good thing I don't own SASS...and yeayeayea...I know you're glad I don't too.

 

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

 

Good thing I don't own SASS...and yeayeayea...I know you're glad I don't too.

 

 

 

GG ~

[Sixgun Shorty, SASS #35717 Life]

simply a matter of respect..nothing blatantly religious about it, but SASS, as America , is a melting pot....

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

simply a matter of respect..nothing blatantly religious about it, but SASS, as America , is a melting pot....

 

Sounds good to me...

 

GG ~

[Bramble Mountain Buzzard]

The original symbol used by the first Christians was the fish. I won't go into the full history, you can google it yourself. But the symbol of the cross was not used in Christianity until about the 5th century.

 

With that said, I think that Joey Jingles' simple post makes the most sense, along with the others who mentioned bringing a cross with them if that make them feel better.

[Subdeacon Joe]

The original symbol used by the first Christians was the fish. I won't go into the full history, you can google it yourself. But the symbol of the cross was not used in Christianity until about the 5th century.

 

Um...a slight correction. It was the Crucifix, with the depiction of the Corpus, that came into use in the 5th century. The Cross has been used since the early 2nd century, which was about the same time as the fish. By about A.D. 200 Tertuillian was able to,without any ambiguity, call Christians "devotees of the Cross" and noted a habit of them signing themselves on the forehead with the Cross. The use of the chi-rho may date to the late 1st century. Early Christian tombs were decorated with images of palms, peacocks, the Cross, the chi-rho, even Christ as the Good Shepard.

 

There is also in 1 Cor. "But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews indeed a stumblingblock, and unto the Gentiles foolishness:" which puts the Cross central to Christian teaching.

[BJT]

Ahhhh, Phantom, if you owned SASS, just think of how much nastier we could be to you, and how much more we could whine at you. If I had the disposable income, I would buy it for you just for the entertainment!

 

I hope you are doing well back there in Texas. Miss ya.

 

BJT

 

Frankly...too bad SASS didn't just fund the thing themselves...make it a Memorial Hall and Chapel. Build the building with an hugh rotunda for the memorial aspect, and then a chapel...something like you'd find in a hospital or something.

 

But...guess it's just cheaper to have other pay for it...others that have a wide ranging view of how it should be done.

 

Good thing I don't own SASS...and yeayeayea...I know you're glad I don't too.

 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Ahhhh, Phantom, if you owned SASS, just think of how much nastier we could be to you, and how much more we could whine at you. If I had the disposable income, I would buy it for you just for the entertainment!

 

I hope you are doing well back there in Texas. Miss ya.

 

BJT

 

It would be entertaining...and what's life without festive entertainment!

 

Hope to see ya...someday. Had a great time at EOT last year with your garage experiment. Howz about you going too this year?

 

[BJT]

I am planning on being there with the garage experiment. I could not miss FCGF. Hope to see you there.

 

BJT

 

It would be entertaining...and what's life without festive entertainment!

 

Hope to see ya...someday. Had a great time at EOT last year with your garage experiment. Howz about you going too this year?

 

[Wyatt Earp SASS#1628L]

So where's Long Jim Hancock? He started this whole thing, it was his idea. Long Jim, what was your initial impression of the chapel? What was it that you sold the Wild Bunch on? Sounds like it was a chapel with a cross. If not, then why all the controversy over the cross.

 

Wyatt

[Contingent Fee McGee, #71885]

Obama ,,,, Got in because ,,,,,, Most were afraid to offend anyone .....

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

Belated congratulations on the 59th anniversary of your Queen's reign.

[Wyatt Earp SASS#1628L]

Some more food for thought, this copied from the May 2010 Chronicle as listed under the SASS Charities, Cowboy Chapel section of the SASSWire homepage: something about a CHURCH.....

 

May 2010 Chronicle

 

Footnote: A man and his idea ...

Conceive it, believe it, achieve it, receive

it ... Author, Dr. John F. DiStefano,

AKA: Dr. I. Yankum, SASS #22529.

(The Wild Bunch was delighted when

this idea first surfaced, and Palaver

Pete is correct, it took all of 30 seconds

to muster an approval vote! As can be

imagined, this project is in its very

early stages. All of the fine details

have yet to be worked out—they all

depend upon the amount of money the

team has with which to work. By

END of TRAIL the site for the church

will be solidified. Periodic Cowboy

Chronicle reports will make the evolving

plan and success of the fund-raising

efforts visible to everyone. The

church, as well as the rest of the

“town,” are all part of the SASS

Museum, a 501©3 corporation, making

all contributions tax free donations.

All money received will be set

aside in a special building fund.

Checks can be sent to:

SASS Museum

Attn: Memorial Chapel

215 Cowboy Way

Edgewood, NM 87015

And. by the way, if anyone can acquire

pews for the sanctuary, please do! …

Editor in Chief)

[Wyatt Earp SASS#1628L]

It won't let me copy the picture, but please go to the SASSWire homepage and scroll down to the bottom of the page. Under SASS Charities, click on Cowboy Chapel. On the right side of the page, find the link to the August 2010 Chronicle titled "Picking up speed". Look at the photo of the Wild Bunch breakng ground for the chapel. I see Tex, the Judge, General Grant, Hipshot and Coyote Calhoun in front of a false front church, and what is that on top of the church?

Now tell me what was sold to the membership?

 

Wyatt

 

ETA: Link to the page:

http://www.sassnet.com/chapel/10augchron%208.pdf

[Concho Billy]

Wow! all over a cross.........? I can't believe anyone would be offended.......

[Wyatt Earp SASS#1628L]

This IS NOT ALL OVER A CROSS. This is about what was proposed, what was approved, and what was advertised and sold to the membership in order to gain contributions to build a chapel that would be wholly owned and controlled by the entity asking for the membership to pay for it.

 

Wyatt

[Aunt Jen]

Cross or not on the chapel? Who was it built for? What did they have in the old west?

 

No one costume in SASS, no one gun, no one stage shot can capture every variation of itself from the old west.

 

Lets say it's a Christian chapel. Fine. To commemorate something that was common in the old west. Ok.

 

But I'm Jewish, so how do I feel about that?

 

Same as I might in the old west:

 

Likely, there were some chapels that didn't want Jews around; but also likely there were some who were accepting, not only of Jews but also of Muslims or whomever---very likely even some who were accepting, with admirably wise pastors, of people from any walk of life, or any faith, and who felt the light of God (or however it might have been phrased) was in someone with love in his heart, regardless of the details.

 

To that end, I'd say that the chapel takes on the character of its leaders, its pastor, its members.

 

Me?

 

If I see it, and if I go in---and I might---I'd feel free to pray or love or hug rather as I might have in the old west: A Jew in another of a thousand, Christian chapels, wondering if I'm accepted, wondering if anyone will assume I'm Christian because I'm in there, and feeling a deep thanks when, sometimes, someone shows me some love or compassion, regardless.

 

I don't have a problem with their being a chapel with a cross on it, though it does leave me feeling, yet again, estranged, a little left out, perhaps with the assumption my faith isn't really there. As always, if Jews want a synagogue there, then I guess we'll have to raise some money, also.

 

Heck, the place might turn into a town, some day, if that kind of thing keeps up. Then we'll have to raise some money for an ice cream parlor.

 

Aunt Jen

[lefty pete]

This whole mess is simple to fix.Build what was advertised.

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

This whole mess is simple to fix. Build what was advertised.

 

I agree. I just saw this thread. This topic came up at yesterday's shooters meeting at Mule Camp. A lot of this may have been covered. I wasn't about to dig through 6 pages of posts, but here's what I concluded:

 

A great many folk feel misled about this whole project. I sympathize with that notion. For a while, I gathered much of this feeling of being misled may have been built on folks own assumptions of the project. I ultimately concluded that stance proved to be invalid once examining the marketing of this project.

Cowboy Chronicle articles pertaining to the chapel project are contained in a link on this website.

http://www.sassnet.com/chapel/index.php

I will reference these articles below.

 

June 2010 Cowboy Chronicle goes into the intent of a memorial chapel, who it memorializes and the general idea of "an icon used in virtually every western film made in the past century was missing"....... "the white steepled iconic western town church." They even have a church bell being donated from Badlands Bar 3.

A stereotypical picture of a Christian church has been painted. The editor's note reads, "By END of TRAIL the site for the church will be solidified."

 

July 2010 Cowboy Chronicle: We see an advertisement with a picture of a Christian church with a cross atop and a Bible verse caption.

 

August 2010 Cowboy Chronicle: We see a ground breaking photo op of the site with a mock up Christian church front with a cross atop.

 

September 2010 Cowboy Chronicle: Yet another advertisement with a picture of a Christian church with bible verse included.

 

Based on this advertising history, no other faiths factor in.

 

If ultimately we find misrepresentation in advertising, donors should be given a refund should they choose.

 

It was a poor decision to raise funds without a concrete set of plans and rendition of the final structure. This is called "seat of the pants" project management and simply cannot expect it to work when funded by donations and supported by volunteers.

 

Draw your own conclusions.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Folks,

 

After reading posts by a few of our Jewish pards and an email from one of the fund raisers, I've decided that not having a cross is the best decision.

 

Sure, some folks may feel mislead. However, I think it is more important to make all of our pards feel included in a house of worship and remembrance.

 

Sincerely,

 

Allie Mo

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

Hi Folks,

 

After reading posts by a few of our Jewish pards and an email from one of the fund raisers, I've decided that not having a cross is the best decision.

 

Sure, some folks may feel mislead. However, I think it is more important to make all of our pards feel included in a house of worship and remembrance.

 

Sincerely,

 

Allie Mo

 

I too sympathize with that as well. I could see pards of different faiths being put off by this whole endeavor from the start.

[Hal A. Looyah #83098]

I was optimistic when this chapel plan started. I didn't see these problems coming, but they are to be expected. The cross and Gospel of Christ can only create any degree of unity within a group of CHRISTIANS. Faith in Jesus Christ, can and will, divide families and friends. Jesus warned of this. Either this will be a place where Christ is exalted, or it won't. This is just a building, so build it already, and call it whatever you like. I'm sorry if people feel misled or misrepresented.