Are there any INVIOLATE rules?

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Not to derail another thread, so I'll ask it here...

 

We know that...

A Match Director can write match instructions that invalidate or contradict stage conventions.

We know that...

Upon lodged protest, a Match Director can overturn or over rule miss calls, procedurals or even Spirit of the Game.

 

The only significant rules category remaining (and the questions at hand) are safety related...

 

So?

Does the Match Director have discretion regarding the application of safety rules (or if after the fact - the administration of penalty?)

 

Always?

Every situation is individual and requires its specific examination?

Spirit of the rule may outweigh letter of the rule?

 

Not always; but sometimes - some rules?

If that's the case; which rules and under what circumstances?

 

Never?

Safety is cut and dried - THIS is the rule and THIS is the penalty.

Edited September 25 by Creeker, SASS #43022

[Idaho Gunslinger]

I'm too new to effectively answer this but I would say at Monthly matches the MD can do whatever he/she wants so long as they are trying to keep everyone happy and safe. This is the entertainment business after all and most of the regulars seem to be aging out. The monthlies I go too aren't very competitive at all and some clubs rarely even hand out earned P's and barely post scores. But when each person is in their own category there doesn't seem to be a lot of point. 

 

At bigger matches I think things need to be kept as fair as possible and the more Posses and TOs there are in a single match the less you better deviate from the letter of the law (ie the handbook) because people may become of the opinion that others are being favored when exceptions are made at these larger extra competitive events. 

 

Waiting for Phantom now. Where's my popcorn?!

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

SHB pg 20 would says that there are instances where they can:

 

The Match Director has the authority to override an “RO assisted” MSV penalty for a reshoot. 

 

If this is true, does the Match Director have the authority to override an “RO assisted” SDQ penalty? Say the RO told a shooter to move and their pistol was already cocked for instance....

Edited September 25 by Branchwater Jack SASS #88854

[Cholla]

9 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

If this is true, does the Match Director have the authority to override an “RO assisted” SDQ penalty? Say the RO told a shooter to move and their pistol was already cocked for instance....

This sounds oddly specific, like it happened to Dudly Do Wrong or one of his pals.

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

17 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

SHB pg 20 would says that there are instances where they can:

 

The Match Director has the authority to override an “RO assisted” MSV penalty for a reshoot. 

 

If this is true, does the Match Director have the authority to override an “RO assisted” SDQ penalty? Say the RO told a shooter to move and their pistol was already cocked for instance....

I may well be wrong but I’m going to say no. The shooter should know they can’t move with a cocked pistol.

 

Randy

[Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life]

Just my .02 cents worth

I know that some feel that pretty much all rules violations are individually specific and and each set of circumstances should be scrutinized endlessly and in a vacuum. These folks feel that EVERY possible situation has to be in writing in order to be satisfied. As a result we no longer have a pocket rule book, rather a 46 page shooters handbook, a 35 page ROI student book followed by a 25 page ROII student book. And STILL we debate what the meaning of "is" is!

I am a bit (okay a lot) OCD and like the idea of the rules just being the rules. The individual shooter is responsible for knowing, understanding and playing by the rules IMHO. If someone is looking for loopholes for their behavior then that is their right but it doesn't seem very cowboy.

If they believe that dropping a loaded gun is not a MDQ because lady luck didn't smile down on them at that particular moment well I doubt anyone could change their mind. But I would call the MDQ on them, on myself or anyone else who doesn't care to exercise a little control over their firearms.

If the MD wants to over rule me.... that is his/her perogative and mine would be to shoot somewhere else that the rules (and penalties) are enforced as written.

We do our shooters no benefit to bend the rules on a continuing basis, especially big penalty rules, particularly if the shooters at your club travel to bigger matches or even to smaller monthlies at a different location. Sooner or later they will come to a club that doesn't interpret the rules as anything but what a literal reading of the book says and that will probably surprise some.

I have been fortunate to have had relatively few "controversial" calls over the last 17 or so years. I have been fortunate to see mostly black and white rules violations where a law degree was unnecessary. Most of the "lawyering" about a call seems to come into play on the Wire rather than the line and while entertaining to read has really become quite boring and simultaneously painful, to me, to tell the truth.

As in most things YMMV

Regards

    

Gateway Kid

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Good question, JEDI Creeker.

 

I don't have a clue.  SASS has given MD's a lot of authority and of the few big matches I have attended, those MD's

always seem to use wise discretion in their decision making where a protest has been made.

 

..........Widder

 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

If the match director is doing some overriding of SASS rules, then it's highly likely some shooters are getting a benefit from that and the rest are not.  

 

I find there seems to be VERY little reason for a match director to override what the TO and posse marshal have done during the stage, and most things that seem to need attention are when the posse did NOT interpret the SASS rules as written, but put a different spin on them.  And for that, careful selection of posse marshals next time often solves the problem.

 

As well, the "re-litigating" of rules at matches costs valuable time and decision making.  Slowing matches and adding chaos and possibly causing hard feelings..  

 

Avoid overrides! GJ

Edited September 25 by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708

[Captain Bill Burt]

I’m with Gateway Kid and Garrison Joe. Rules are rules. I came to shoot, not to take part in a legal proceeding.

[Eyesa Horg]

9 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

SHB pg 20 would says that there are instances where they can:

 

The Match Director has the authority to override an “RO assisted” MSV penalty for a reshoot. 

 

If this is true, does the Match Director have the authority to override an “RO assisted” SDQ penalty? Say the RO told a shooter to move and their pistol was already cocked for instance....

This happened to me many years ago!! I shot 5 with first pistol,but lost count. Cocked it again, but before I pulled the trigger the TO told me I was "done,holster it". I did and the instant I took my hand off it "SDQ". Had he said nothing, I would have pulled the trigger,click, oh yeh, done with that one holster. Short debate, I lost!!

[Captain Bill Burt]

39 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

This happened to me many years ago!! I shot 5 with first pistol,but lost count. Cocked it again, but before I pulled the trigger the TO told me I was "done,holster it". I did and the instant I took my hand off it "SDQ". Had he said nothing, I would have pulled the trigger,click, oh yeh, done with that one holster. Short debate, I lost!!

Southeast Regional years ago I was TOing for a Gunfighter who lost track of his pistol count and was clicking away even though he had already fired 10 rounds.  I said 'You're done' at which point he holstered a cocked revolver.  I gave him his DQ, for which he blamed me for saying 'the wrong thing'. I'm pretty sure he appealed that and lost.

[Eyesa Horg]

1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Southeast Regional years ago I was TOing for a Gunfighter who lost track of his pistol count and was clicking away even though he had already fired 10 rounds.  I said 'You're done' at which point he holstered a cocked revolver.  I gave him his DQ, for which he blamed me for saying 'the wrong thing'. I'm pretty sure he appealed that and lost.

I didn't appeal as ultimately it was my fault! Just caught me off guard and I immediately did what I was told! Oh well, the rules are the rules and they're there to keep us all safe. I just wished he'd yelled hammer, hammer. Likely wouldn't happen now, but when I was new, I never questioned a TO's orders!

[Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667]

Consistent application of the rules is key.  For every shooter that protests a call, you may have ten more in the match who did not question a similar call.  If “the squeaky wheel gets the grease” and wins an appeal that they should not, the similarly situated shooters who accepted calls are effectively penalized.

 

I am not suggesting that a shooter should never appeal a call that they believe in good faith to be wrong.

[Griff]

34 minutes ago, Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667 said:

Consistent application of the rules is key.  For every shooter that protests a call, you may have ten more in the match who did not question a similar call.  If “the squeaky wheel gets the grease” and wins an appeal that they should not, the similarly situated shooters who accepted calls are effectively DOUBLY penalized.

 

I am not suggesting that a shooter should never appeal a call that they believe in good faith to be wrong.

+1.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

2 hours ago, Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667 said:

I am not suggesting that a shooter should never appeal a call that they believe in good faith to be wrong.

And therein lies the rub.

My question is not about incorrect calls - obviously a "Good" match director is always going to attempt to get things "right" if a call is wrong or rules being improperly applied.

 

I'm asking if there is EVER ANY extenuating circumstance where a Match Director could or should overturn a properly called and applied "by the rules" safety penalty?

 

Or are the SAFETY rules inviolate and never ever subject to review of their application? 

[Vail Vigilante]

The thing about any ruleset, CAS, or otherwise, is that it can cover a majority of the issues, but not all of them.

You can "What if" yourself half nutty trying to write a set that does. 

This is why calls can be questioned, why there is a appeals process.

The person(s) evaluating those calls should judge them according to the ruleset, common sense, and good sportsmanship.

It will never be perfect.

[John Kloehr]

46 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

I'm asking if there is EVER ANY extenuating circumstance where a Match Director could or should overturn a properly called and applied "by the rules" safety penalty?

I can think of lots of examples worthy of overturning without those qualifiers, but drawing a blank with them.

[Hoss]

1 hour ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

And therein lies the rub.

My question is not about incorrect calls - obviously a "Good" match director is always going to attempt to get things "right" if a call is wrong or rules being improperly applied.

 

I'm asking if there is EVER ANY extenuating circumstance where a Match Director could or should overturn a properly called and applied "by the rules" safety penalty?

 

Or are the SAFETY rules inviolate and never ever subject to review of their application? 

I’m not saying this is an exception to the rule, but a place where I could see some “uncommon” sense coming in. 
 

Scenario: it’s a ways from where shooter shoots rifle to last gun. TO asks someone to act as expediter for rifle to save a bit of time.  Expediter, being as careful as possible, does have a mishap (trips, hit by splatter, jostled by brass picker whatever) drops rifle. 
 

Expediter was doing the right thing, just had a bad happening when he could have said I’m not handling another’s guns on the line. 
as a TO/MD it would hurt to give that penalty.  If I were the shooter and a penalty had to be issued I would tell them to put it on me as the expediter was acting as my locum. 
 

this would be a case where I could see an exception being made. 

[Tennessee williams]

My opinion is this.

   If the question is whether or not a match director or TO or whomever, has the ability to overturn a CORRECTLY CALLED violation, other than what they are allowed to by the handbook? Sure they can.

 

  They can also make up their own new rules such as the plant and poke rule where you can't load the sg on the move. Im sure there are many range and or region specific rules. I've never seen anybody hold the Match director down while someone else pulls their fingernails out with pliers unless they follow the SASS handbook. But! I have heard people say, "I'm not going to such and suches to shoot. They don't follow SASS rules." 

   Should  the Match Director or TO overturn a CORRECTLY CALLED violation, other than what is allowed in the handbook? IMO no. This to me introduces "feelings" and judgement into the call that is wholly dependent on the person making the call and can and will vary by that person. Do I feel bad for making a call on my Grandmaw? Sure I do, but rules are rules. The handbook doesn't say don't drop a gun unless you get hit with a ricochet. It says don't drop a gun. 

 

You'll have some TOs who will not make the call. Other ones will make the required hard call. The one who doesn't make the call has penalized everybody except the person they did not make the correct call on.

Again. Just my opinion.

[Captain Bill Burt]

1 hour ago, Hoss said:

I’m not saying this is an exception to the rule, but a place where I could see some “uncommon” sense coming in. 
 

Scenario: it’s a ways from where shooter shoots rifle to last gun. TO asks someone to act as expediter for rifle to save a bit of time.  Expediter, being as careful as possible, does have a mishap (trips, hit by splatter, jostled by brass picker whatever) drops rifle. 
 

Expediter was doing the right thing, just had a bad happening when he could have said I’m not handling another’s guns on the line. 
as a TO/MD it would hurt to give that penalty.  If I were the shooter and a penalty had to be issued I would tell them to put it on me as the expediter was acting as my locum. 
 

this would be a case where I could see an exception being made. 

I respectfully disagree.  Just because the gun isn't yours doesn't mean you aren't responsible for what you do with it.

 

I'll add that getting accidentally shot probably hurts just as much as being shot on purpose and I suspect is just as difficult to remedy.

Edited September 25 by Captain Bill Burt

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

10 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

And therein lies the rub.

My question is not about incorrect calls - obviously a "Good" match director is always going to attempt to get things "right" if a call is wrong or rules being improperly applied.

 

I'm asking if there is EVER ANY extenuating circumstance where a Match Director could or should overturn a properly called and applied "by the rules" safety penalty?

 

Or are the SAFETY rules inviolate and never ever subject to review of their application? 

Here’s an example that happened to me several years ago: 

 

Shotgun sequence was to shoot two targets from the left of a post, then two shots from the right. The required distance to move was one step or less to the right, as long as shooting was from the right of the post. 
 

With my ‘87, I shot two from the left, forgot to move right, loaded two more and just as I closed the lever, the TO yelled “MOVE!!” - which I obediently did - with a loaded gun. SDQ. Not that it matters, but proper muzzle direction was maintained.

 

SDQ is the correct call for movement with the action closed on a loaded gun, provided muzzle control is maintained. The “MOVE!” command was the only word the TO spoke to me for the string.
 

Had he said nothing, I’d have shot the second two rounds from left of the post and earned a procedural. Had I not been startled by the command, I also could’ve jacked out the rounds and then moved without penalty. 
 

Could this have been appealed for TO interference, thus qualifying for a reshoot? Or is it, “that’s too bad, but no, the call stands.”

 

 

 

[Griff]

22 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

Here’s an example that happened to me several years ago: 

 

Shotgun sequence was to shoot two targets from the left of a post, then two shots from the right. The required distance to move was one step or less to the right, as long as shooting was from the right of the post. 
 

With my ‘87, I shot two from the left, forgot to move right, loaded two more and just as I closed the lever, the TO yelled “MOVE!!” - which I obediently did - with a loaded gun. SDQ. Not that it matters, but proper muzzle direction was maintained.

 

SDQ is the correct call for movement with the action closed on a loaded gun, provided muzzle control is maintained. The “MOVE!” command was the only word the TO spoke to me for the string.
 

Had he said nothing, I’d have shot the second two rounds from left of the post and earned a procedural. Had I not been startled by the command, I also could’ve jacked out the rounds and then moved without penalty. 
 

Could this have been appealed for TO interference, thus qualifying for a reshoot? Or is it, “that’s too bad, but no, the call stands.”

That's not actually an uncommon occurrence.  Especially with newer shooters.  The answer has always been, "...it's the shooter's responsibility to know the rules, and progress thru the stage in accordance with all rules..."  So, yes, too bad, soo sad.  Many a TO has, in an attempt to keep a shooter on track, directed them into a penalty.  While I don't necessarily dislike coaching, sometimes it's out of place.  One of my pet peeves is the TO that tells me a shotgun target is down.  I don't need that information... I need to know if it's still UP.  So I've just started responding, "... well, duh, I shot at it!"  While I might dawdle shooting the revolvers and rifle... I don't do the same with the shotgun...   Some folks feel "coaching" has no place in competition... I feel it has its time and place... it really depends on the shooter.  When I still TO'd there'd be the occasional shooter that would simply tell me to keep my trap shut...  Fine, that's really not all that hard.  But... other's sometimes get lost in the sequence, or miscount shots in something like a progressive sweep that includes both handgun and rifle rounds, and have to ask the TO "...which target is next?"

[Idaho Gunslinger]

17 hours ago, Hoss said:

I’m not saying this is an exception to the rule, but a place where I could see some “uncommon” sense coming in. 
 

Scenario: it’s a ways from where shooter shoots rifle to last gun. TO asks someone to act as expediter for rifle to save a bit of time.  Expediter, being as careful as possible, does have a mishap (trips, hit by splatter, jostled by brass picker whatever) drops rifle. 
 

Expediter was doing the right thing, just had a bad happening when he could have said I’m not handling another’s guns on the line. 
as a TO/MD it would hurt to give that penalty.  If I were the shooter and a penalty had to be issued I would tell them to put it on me as the expediter was acting as my locum. 
 

this would be a case where I could see an exception being made. 

I am really cautious about expediting long guns for people and I probably won't ever do it at larger matches. You have to be careful to check for a case/round still being in the rifle before even handling it on top of the risk of dropping someone else's gun if an accident happens. 

That being said I do it occasionally at monthly matches for the folks who don't move around so well. I'm not sure how I would feel as the TO having to hand out an SDQ to the expediter (dropping an empty gun is an SDQ right?) but if they hadn't already shot the stage I would probably still let them shoot it and move on. I view monthly matches as just having some fun and practice. As long as I get to shoot I don't care all that much. I like to know my score just to see if I am improving or not, but overall it doesn't really matter. Having to hand out an MDQ, especially early on in the match is going to be a lot more painful to do though. 

8 hours ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

Here’s an example that happened to me several years ago: 

 

Shotgun sequence was to shoot two targets from the left of a post, then two shots from the right. The required distance to move was one step or less to the right, as long as shooting was from the right of the post. 
 

With my ‘87, I shot two from the left, forgot to move right, loaded two more and just as I closed the lever, the TO yelled “MOVE!!” - which I obediently did - with a loaded gun. SDQ. Not that it matters, but proper muzzle direction was maintained.

 

SDQ is the correct call for movement with the action closed on a loaded gun, provided muzzle control is maintained. The “MOVE!” command was the only word the TO spoke to me for the string.
 

Had he said nothing, I’d have shot the second two rounds from left of the post and earned a procedural. Had I not been startled by the command, I also could’ve jacked out the rounds and then moved without penalty. 
 

Could this have been appealed for TO interference, thus qualifying for a reshoot? Or is it, “that’s too bad, but no, the call stands.”

 

 

 

For this example I too wouldn't appeal the call. You still got to shoot all the rounds on the stage and have fun. If it were a monthly I'd feel like I still accomplished my goal. At a larger match it would hurt because I got knocked off the score list, but I'd be mad at myself for trying to shoot in the wrong position in the first place. 

 

We had a stage that had an 11th rifle reload shot at a bonus target. I shot my 10 shots and forgot about the bonus shot. About the time the TO realized I wasn't grabbing an extra round for my rifle I had already dropped shells into my shotgun so he just stayed quiet and let me keep shooting. Had he said something it likely would have discombobulated me and turned into a train wreck.  All that to say TOs aren't perfect and it can be really hard as a TO to decide when you should and shouldn't say something because sometimes you can help and sometimes you can hurt. 

 

[Captain Bill Burt]

8 minutes ago, Idaho Gunslinger said:

I am really cautious about expediting long guns for people and I probably won't ever do it at larger matches. You have to be careful to check for a case/round still being in the rifle before even handling it on top of the risk of dropping someone else's gun if an accident happens. 

That being said I do it occasionally at monthly matches for the folks who don't move around so well. I'm not sure how I would feel as the TO having to hand out an SDQ to the expediter (dropping an empty gun is an SDQ right?) but if they hadn't already shot the stage I would probably still let them shoot it and move on. I view monthly matches as just having some fun and practice. As long as I get to shoot I don't care all that much. I like to know my score just to see if I am improving or not, but overall it doesn't really matter. Having to hand out an MDQ, especially early on in the match is going to be a lot more painful to do though. 

For this example I too wouldn't appeal the call. You still got to shoot all the rounds on the stage and have fun. If it were a monthly I'd feel like I still accomplished my goal. At a larger match it would hurt because I got knocked off the score list, but I'd be mad at myself for trying to shoot in the wrong position in the first place. 

 

We had a stage that had an 11th rifle reload shot at a bonus target. I shot my 10 shots and forgot about the bonus shot. About the time the TO realized I wasn't grabbing an extra round for my rifle I had already dropped shells into my shotgun so he just stayed quiet and let me keep shooting. Had he said something it likely would have discombobulated me and turned into a train wreck.  All that to say TOs aren't perfect and it can be really hard as a TO to decide when you should and shouldn't say something because sometimes you can help and sometimes you can hurt. 

 

Respectfully, if you're not willing to enforce the rules you shouldn't pick up the timer.

[Idaho Gunslinger]

35 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Respectfully, if you're not willing to enforce the rules you shouldn't pick up the timer.

I've only ever done it once so no problem there. Since I'm younger I'm probably more useful as a brass picker and target resetter than getting tied up with the timer. 

[Shooting Bull]

On 9/24/2024 at 9:44 PM, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

If the match director is doing some overriding of SASS rules, then it's highly likely some shooters are getting a benefit from that and the rest are not.  

Came here to post this. ^