Big lubes

[Isom Dart, SASS#8096]

Is anyone making the "BIG LUBE" bullets since the original big lube maker  stopped ??

Thanks,

Isom

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

Dallas McBoomBoom is working to start up a BigLube Boolit business.

https://forums.sassnet.com/index.php?/profile/88749-dallas-mcboomboom/

--Dawg

[Snakebite]

Who was the "Original" Big Lube maker?

[Sam Sackett]

Dick Dastardly……..

[Springfield Slim SASS #24733]

FWIW, Dick Dastardly never sold Big Lube bullets, only moulds. 12 or so years ago there were 4 bullet makers, but all are now out of the business. Here's hoping Dallas can work out the kinks and supply all the BP shooters out there, as he is needed.

[Snakebite]

That is correct. As the Originator of the "Snakebite" bullet I had Lee mfg the first molds. They would not make it for others without my permission, which I gave for Dick.  Same for the commercial mold via Magma. Geo Kid had the only approved commercial mold and the "Cherry". It disappeared after his passing.  I have no idea where it went! I've watched to see if the bullet has surfaced, but haven't notice it anywhere. 

[Sedalia Dave]

1 hour ago, Snakebite said:

That is correct. As the Originator of the "Snakebite" bullet I had Lee mfg the first molds. They would not make it for others without my permission, which I gave for Dick.  Same for the commercial mold via Magma. Geo Kid had the only approved commercial mold and the "Cherry". It disappeared after his passing.  I have no idea where it went! I've watched to see if the bullet has surfaced, but haven't notice it anywhere. 

 

Any chance you have the drawings laying around?  Would be nice if we could get them to a few of the current mold makers so that these excellent designs don't go the way of the Dodo Bird.

[Springfield Slim SASS #24733]

Since LEE made all of the original Big Lube bullets, including the PRS, MAV Dutchman, Snakebite, EPP-UG, 44Slim and 45Slim, DD-ROA, J/P 45 and pretty much everything DD ever sold, they could possibly re-cut them. But it will probably take a batch order to make it worth it.

[Snakebite]

2 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

Any chance you have the drawings laying around?  Would be nice if we could get them to a few of the current mold makers so that these excellent designs don't go the way of the Dodo Bird.

[Ol Number4]

Seriously folks....!?

"Big" lube grooves really are not a lot of help for BP purposes.  (now the fight starts)

 

If you think about it; consider the total amount of 'lube' that can even possibly squeeze out between the barrel bore and the bullet lands in the time and distance during a firing shot.

Really, the secret to all the lubes is content.    The bullet needs absolutely no "lube" to slick down the bore it will go nicely with none at all.  The consequence of no "lube" is leading and bore ejecta.  Proper elements in the lube will inhibit leading, additional elements will soften the powder/lead ejecta so as not to wear on the bore.  The good/better/best anti-leading element is Beeswax, simple pure beeswax used with at least a 30% mixture with anything else it will all but eliminate leading in a proper bore.  The rest of the formula can consist of any heat/cold non-sensitive,  easily attained and properly mixable element.  One of the better is lanoline then Crisco, STP, lithium grease,  or any smooth catalyst to get a batch.  Some folks even add a 'cutter' to serve as a de-grease element  Murphy's soap,  Dawn detergent, or hydrogen peroxide.  The combinations are limitless depending on your chemistry background  and material available.

 

In serious long range BP circumstances, where consistency and clean counts heavily, the more , but thinner groves work better, or did when I was involved.   The lube had to do, and did, the same job of anti-leading and ejecta softening.  The more lube on the bullet that wasn't used in the bore then came off intermittently going down range was both a waste and a major contributor to poor groups and definite loss of accuracy.  Same with Big Lube bullets, it mostly comes off on the way down range or all over the target.

 

That's my story and I hope it provides some chance for thought on your part.

Good shooting and good luck.

 

Ol'  #4

[Sedalia Dave]

Thanks.

 

 

My experience with real BP.

 

I have worked my way through most of 7000 rounds of commercial Black Dawg Cartridge Co. BP rounds. Both 38 and .357. It is my understanding they are lubed with SPG but do not use a Big Lube or similar style of bullet. I haven't pulled a bullet to verify this. Just going on what I have been told.

 

When fired from any pistol I can easily shoot 6 stages with ZERO issues.

 

When fired from a rifle with a 20" barrel I can shoot 6 stages with ZERO issues.

 

When fired from a rifle with a 24" barrel I have to run a wet patch through the barrel after each stage. Otherwise, I have issues with BP fouling becoming hard and causing accuracy issues. I can feel where the fouling gets hard while pulling a wet patch from breach to muzzle. It starts at about 21" from the breach end of the rifle.

 

As for your observations about Long range shooting and bullet lube, I have no personal experience, but it does make sense. 

 

The only purpose of bullet lube when using smokeless bullets is to prevent gas cutting. It does this by sealing off the little imperfections between the bore and the bullet.

When shooting real BP the lube has the additional task of keeping the fouling from causing accuracy issues. If you run a wet patch down the barrel between shots or are using a blow tube, you are doing the same function a different way.

 

When it comes to barrel leading it has been my personal experience that it is mostly caused by bullets that are too small and too hard for a given barrel. This allows gas cutting which will cause barrel leading. The other cause is pushing lead bullets a velocities greater than what the bullet was designed for. Too high a velocity is seldom a problem in CAS.

 

A good lube that is properly selected based on the bullets velocity can make up for undersized bullets to some extent as can a bullet that is soft enough to obturate properly. However most cast lead lubed bullets that are sold to CAS shooters are way too hard for the velocities CAS shooters use and the lube is way too hard to make up for this shortcoming. 

 

The reason for the bullets being hard is that they cast easier and do not pick up imperfections when sized using commercial equipment. 

 

The reason for the lube being too hard is that it stands up better to bulk shipping especially in hot weather.

 

YMMV

Edited April 8 by Sedalia Dave

[Tequila Shooter]

Both @Ol Number4 and @Sedalia Dave reasons why if you’re doing BPCR for accuracy at range you need to cast your own.  That’s not saying that commercial suppliers are making an inferior bullet, but as Dave pointed out it’s a cost vs quantity issue.  Even casting my own with a one cavity mold and pouring with a ladle I still get weight variances which is why I have @La Sombra weigh each and every round.  And as Ol Number 4 said any lube that comes out of the barrel is wasted and has the potential to effect accuracy.  

 

IMHO and YMMV

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

The big lube bullets probably do hold more lube then neccessary for shooting black powder in SASS. But they were a solution to shooters trying to put BP lube in the miniscule lube grooves in many common bullets that did not hold enough lube for a rifle.  I tried loading with lube cookies. It worked but was a hassle. Then I tried shooting every other round with a lube cookie to only have to load half as many that way. That also worked but it was BOOM, boom, BOOM, boom, disconcerting.  Plus this was at the time when they were coming up with the smoke standard because some shooters hardly seemed to be shooting BP or substitutes in frontier cartridge categories. 

 

Real long range is a completely different story but I shot the pistol caliber long range events with good results using the big lubes. 100yds to 125yds at the farthest though.

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

I can verify that Black Dawg BP bullets are lubed with SPG.
I have shot hundreds of them that I loaded myself with my own BP.

They were also soft cast, which worked out well too.

 

As far as BigLube bullets, in my experience, I can shoot a 6-stage match out of a 24" barrel, and never have to swab the barrel, and get no fouling out.  I shot a 44-40 30" '73 for many years with Mav Dutchman bullets from Springfield Slim, and never fouled it out either.
I personally hate to have to "clean" my guns several times a match, so I am a BigLube fan.

--Dawg

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

16 hours ago, Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329 said:

 

As far as BigLube bullets, in my experience, I can shoot a 6-stage match out of a 24" barrel, and never have to swab the barrel, and get no fouling out.  I shot a 44-40 30" '73 for many years with Mav Dutchman bullets from Springfield Slim, and never fouled it out either.
I personally hate to have to "clean" my guns several times a match, so I am a BigLube fan.

--Dawg

This^ When Heather and I shoot BP we share the guns so I only have to clean one set of guns. Never had a problem shooting 6  stages X 2. I am a Big Lube fan too, 2, also. 

 

JefroRelax-Enjoy

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

Someone posted in the past that included diagrams of many bullet moulds. May have been Accurate not sure. There were several designs that looked like they would work well with BP and hold enough lube in two good sized lube grooves. Can't remember if any had one large one like the Big Lubes. But many of the popular smokeless rnfp bullets will hold a very small amount of BP lube if you try to relube them. 

[Dallas McBoomboom]

On 4/7/2024 at 11:44 AM, Springfield Slim SASS #24733 said:

Since LEE made all of the original Big Lube bullets, including the PRS, MAV Dutchman, Snakebite, EPP-UG, 44Slim and 45Slim, DD-ROA, J/P 45 and pretty much everything DD ever sold, they could possibly re-cut them. But it will probably take a batch order to make it worth it.

I have talked to Lee, they claim they don't have the patterns, and pretty much told me they have no interest in trying to remake them, and damn near verbatim told me to get lost when I asked if they'd work with me on re making them.  I've been working with Tom at Accurate to re create some, but he's not always comfortable making the lube grooves as big as I want them.  We're getting there. In the meantime, I have most of the standards, (some from Slim, some from Dawg, and wherever I can find or design them), and am working with other cowboys via email. Dallas@theboombrothers.com 

[Warden Callaway]

I wonder if someone could develop a collet type die that could squeeze a deeper lube groove in an otherwise standard bullet?  Kind of like a Lee Factory crimp die but way more aggressive.  

[Isom Dart, SASS#8096]

Thanks for all the info guys.

Isom

[Snakebite]

Well all I can say is that the bullet I used worked well enough for me to bring home a few rewards. Barrels tend to gall up a few inches from the end, and the 2 grams of lube carried in the bullet kept the end of the barrel wet. If some was wasted it was/is no big deal. The bullet also did a great job in the Pistol Caliber Long Range category when they had one. It was designed with two goals in mind. One was to carry a lot of lube, and the other was to load in a 38 case and come out to the OAL of a 357. It did both and has worked well. For any shooting a 38/357, it works very well.  And THAT'S my story!

Edited April 9 by Snakebite

[Springfield Slim SASS #24733]

Funny how we didn't "need" Big Lube bullets to get the job done, and yet 4 different people came up with the same idea independently, and they became a very sought after product. Snakebite 38, PRS 45, 44 MAV and the J/P 45, although truth be told that was altered by DD from the original design.

   I don't "need" 4 different sets of guns to shoot SASS. I don't "need" who knows how many different outfits to shoot in. I don't "need" 8 different motorcycles. But it works for me, and this is America, where I have the right to do so, as long as it doesn't interfere with others rights. So, don't tell me what "we" don't need. Just come up with a better product and/or idea and I'm sure you will dominate the market.  If not, then maybe there is a "need" for Big Lubes, and I hope Dallas manages to fill this need.  I know I will continue to cast them for myself and my daughter, as I have no "need" to look elsewhere for something that works well for us.

[Lead Monger]

I have the mold for the 250g 45 cal Big Lube and have fed thousands of that bullet to to a 66 carbine, 73 brush popper and a 92 rifle with 24” barrel. They are accurate and will run in all three rifles for at least six stages. Given a 35g charge of double F it shoots great in a revolver also but is a bit heavier than needed. My favorite bullet is the MAV 44. Again thousands of them thrown from  a 66 carbine in 44 special without a hitch and that 200g pill stuffed in a 44 Russian case is awesome in an open top. I should have purchased the 38 cal mold when they were available.

[Rooster Ron Wayne]

If you use APP .

You can even use regular bullets. 

It don't matter what bullet you use because APP makes its own lubrication. 

Just Sayin. 

Rooster 

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

I’ve recently tried some other’s black powder lubed bullets.  They have a regular lube groove, but BP friendly lube.  I have to run a wet patch through my rifle after every stage.  When I use Big-lube bullets, I don’t have this issue.  Do I NEED big-lube bullets?  Maybe not, but they work perfectly for my purposes!

 

And I don’t WANT to shoot APP!  It is a fine substitute, but isn’t the same as real BP.

 

Possum

[Sedalia Dave]

1 hour ago, Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 said:

I’ve recently tried some other’s black powder lubed bullets.  They have a regular lube groove, but BP friendly lube.  I have to run a wet patch through my rifle after every stage.  When I use Big-lube bullets, I don’t have this issue.  Do I NEED big-lube bullets?  Maybe not, but they work perfectly for my purposes!

 

And I don’t WANT to shoot APP!  It is a fine substitute, but isn’t the same as real BP.

 

Possum

 

How long is your rifle barrel?  With non-Big Lube bullets lubed with SPG and a 20" barrel I don't have any issues.

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

2 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

How long is your rifle barrel?  With non-Big Lube bullets lubed with SPG and a 20" barrel I don't have any issues.

 

It depends on exactly what bullet you are using that's not a Big Lube. Some do hold enough BP lube. But I've seen outfits that offered the same bullet with standard lube or BP lube that had a tiny lube groove that didn't  work. Some shooters use smokeless lubed bullets with real BP "without issue" but they run a boresnake after each stage. But there are other bullets that can work besides the Big Lubes.

[Dallas McBoomboom]

On 4/10/2024 at 5:35 PM, Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 said:

I’ve recently tried some other’s black powder lubed bullets.  They have a regular lube groove, but BP friendly lube.  I have to run a wet patch through my rifle after every stage.  When I use Big-lube bullets, I don’t have this issue.  Do I NEED big-lube bullets?  Maybe not, but they work perfectly for my purposes!

 

And I don’t WANT to shoot APP!  It is a fine substitute, but isn’t the same as real BP.

 

Possum

Ditto across the board. Especially on APP; definitely the best sub currently made, but it don't boom right, and it don't taste right. 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

1 hour ago, Dallas McBoomboom said:

Ditto across the board. Especially on APP; definitely the best sub currently made, but it don't boom right, and it don't taste right. 

And it doesn't flame right. 

I never tasted APP but it doesn't smell right, either.

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

I started with APP, called Cleanshot at the time, but did not have good results with regular lubed bullets. Started loading real BP and got it figured out after a while. Once you have the right bullet/lube loading and shooting BP is easy.

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

On 4/10/2024 at 5:39 PM, Sedalia Dave said:

 

How long is your rifle barrel?  With non-Big Lube bullets lubed with SPG and a 20" barrel I don't have any issues.

20"  38Sp

[Ethan Cord]

On 4/9/2024 at 11:52 AM, Dallas McBoomboom said:

I have talked to Lee, they claim they don't have the patterns, and pretty much told me they have no interest in trying to remake them, and damn near verbatim told me to get lost when I asked if they'd work with me on re making them.  I've been working with Tom at Accurate to re create some, but he's not always comfortable making the lube grooves as big as I want them.  We're getting there. In the meantime, I have most of the standards, (some from Slim, some from Dawg, and wherever I can find or design them), and am working with other cowboys via email. Dallas@theboombrothers.com 

Dallas, have you made any progress with Accurate Molds? 

 

If you start making the Snakebite Greasewagon bullets with black powder lube I will be interested in buying some. Shoot me a PM if you do. Good luck with your adventure!

Edited May 5 by Ethan Cord
clarification