What's the call?

[Chief Rick]

On 4/4/2024 at 6:24 PM, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

No. 

The OP is delivering their subjective opinion of what happened.  The only person who KNOWS what they intended is the shooter and honestly - what they intended is immaterial to the call.

 

What WE actually know and can score on or potentially assign penalty on is the following.

The shooter had 10 pistol rounds to knockdown 5 pistol targets.

AND we know that misses on the PISTOL knockdowns do not count.

 

Shooter engaged pistol knockdowns - in the course of engaging pistol knockdowns; a PISTOL round struck and knocked down a RIFLE target.

Shooter completed the pistol knockdown string and placed remaining rounds on the pistol dump target.

 

Lets score this so far.

Misses on pistol knockdowns do not count.

All pistol knockdowns were down before transitioning to the dump.

Shooter had no misses on the dump plate.

So no miss penalty is present.

The pistol round that struck the RIFLE target is immaterial as for purposes of scoring - targets assigned to a specific type firearm DO NOT EXIST for any other type firearm.  The pistol round striking a rifle plate is not a hit, nor a procedural as that target is "not present" - it is considered "air".

 

So no misses - no P for pistols.

 

So now rifle - there exists 10 RIFLE knockdowns with 10 RIFLE rounds to engage.

One RIFLE knockdown has fallen - in this case because of an errant pistol round; but the reason is immaterial (under other circumstances, it could have been wind, rack vibration or a host of reasons).

So having 9 available targets (with NO assigned order) and 10 rounds for engagement - we KNOW one round will be designated for "air".

The shooter struck three targets - 4th went to air and then completed the knockdown string.

There is NO definition of "shoot where it was" - a round safely discharged downrange from the proper firearm at an appropriate time in the shooting string is sufficient.

As there was no shooting order - the rifle round designated for air could be expended at ANYTIME in the rifle string.

 

10 rifle rounds expended - 10 knockdowns down.

No rifle misses - no p.

 

Clean shooter.

 

In THIS instance - the pistol round that struck and knocked down the rifle target was (assumedly) an accident.

I "could" see other penalties (SoG) being applicable IF the shooter were deliberately attempting to take down rifle targets by pistol for some form of advantage knowing they was no other penalty for doing so.  But thats a different discussion.

Creeker,

 

Thank you for the explanation.  This is how our TO and spotters ruled - without asking the shooter of their "intentions".

 

Hope we were right.

 

 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

3 hours ago, Chief Rick said:

Hope we were right.

There are 100's of opportunities to question an action or a result during a match.

There is no shame or issue with doing so.

Ever.

 

The only thing that matters is that we take every one of these opportunities - every one of these questions and hold them up against the stage instructions, the rulebook and the objective result of the shooters actions and do our very best to arrive at the correct answer.

 

Sometimes these answers seem easy and other times difficult - and sometimes a single word added or omitted can change the outcome.

 

But as stage writers, match directors, timer operators, spotters and posse members - our duty above everything is to advocate for the shooter and record the correct outcome.

 

You were correct to decide as you did during the match.

You were correct to bring it to the wire to ensure you were on the right path.

 

You did good.

And I would be thrilled if I were ever to get the chance to shoot with you and your club.

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

9 hours ago, Chief Rick said:

Marshal, I'm quoting you only because you are the first (or is it last??) to make this comment.

 

Stage instructions:

With pistols, first engage the five bottles then place all remaining rounds on the dump plate.

 

With rifle, engage the 10 rifle knock-down targets.

 

Anyone stating that these are poor stage instructions, please explain how this could be written any more clearly.

I only wrote that, because of the different opinions that were posted. If the posters were spotters, their opinions would be their calls. So apparently there is not a consensus on the stage writing, or explanations for the spotters here.

[Texas Jack Black]

 After all these years and still all this confusion over the rules . I saw it at every match.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Sorri Pards, but I been without internet services for over a week.

 

BUT..... my money would bet that PWB is sitting back, reading with great interest, the

comments from the ROII's and Black Pins before he squares things up with ALL of us.

OR..... he may be out of blue ink.  

 

If the shooter argues that his 'missed rifle shot' was because he was engaging the

rifle target that had previously been knocked down with a pistol shot, then trying to

award any penalty would be moot..... in my opinion.

In that circumstance, shooter would be CLEAN.

 

Without US actually knowing the positions of those pistol and rifle targets, we have

no idea as to their settings nor do we know if a 'clear miss' was possible.

Probably wouldn't matter in this situation.

 

Originally, I thought it would be a miss.   But after thinking about it, I'm probably

wrong in going with....... CLEAN.

 

..........Widder

 

[Captain Bill Burt]

I haven't criticized the stage writing nor do I intend this post as a criticism, but since the question was asked I'll give some thoughts.

The way this stage was written leaves the door open to some creative approaches. 

 

For example, what if the shooter draws his pistol(s) and knocks down four pistol targets, then with the next four rounds knocks down several rifle targets (intentionally or not, only the shooter would know). Maybe a round or two go into the berm. The ninth pistol round knocks down the remaining pistol target and the tenth round hits the dump target. The shooter is now faced with less than 10 standing rifle targets and has 10 rounds to engage them.   At the end of the stage when questioned the shooter says that he was trying to hit that last pistol target and inadvertently hit several rifle targets. 

 

I appears to me that the stage writer's intent was for the shooter to have 10 rifle rounds to engage 10 rifle targets, but in this case the shooter has a margin of error to get through the stage clean.  I think most of us would conclude that the shooter willfully shot the stage in a manner other than intended and did it to gain an advantage, but could we call a SOG and make it stick?

 

I wouldn't write a stage this way for a variety of reasons, but if asked to 'correct' it such that a shooter couldn't do that I would insert a statement saying pistol rounds that hit a rifle target earn the shooter a P.  That would over ride SASS rules stating that such an occurrence is a miss and prevent cheating (hopefully).

[Concho Billy]

If this many members cannot agree, then benefit to the shooter, CLEAN.

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

3 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I wouldn't write a stage this way for a variety of reasons, but if asked to 'correct' it such that a shooter couldn't do that I would insert a statement saying pistol rounds that hit a rifle target earn the shooter a P.  That would over ride SASS rules stating that such an occurrence is a miss and prevent cheating (hopefully).

If written that way, you'd want to make absolutely certain the rifle targets COULDN'T be hit with an errant pistol round.

[Rafe Conager SASS #56958]

I am not trying to GIVE the shooter a miss or a P, However OP  states that 

"With rifle, engage the 10 rifle knock-down targets".

"The first three rounds knock down the first three targets. 

Shooter misses the fourth target with the fourth shot. 

Shooter re-engages the fourth target, knocks it down!"

Meaning that Shooter did not engage all 10 rifle targets with the rifle as instructed shooter only engaged 9 of the rifle targets, #4 was engaged twice.  

How could this not at least be a P for not engaging all rifle targets with the rifle. I shoot at several clubs and the unwritten rule for a target that falls or was not set before the stage is shot is that the shooter shoots where it would be. No misses. So u8nless the OP was posting the instructions different than written I stand by my call. And will gladly hand the spotting stick/timer to someone else if I am wrong!

Rafe

 

[Widder, SASS #59054]

26 minutes ago, Rafe Conager SASS #56958 said:

I am not trying to GIVE the shooter a miss or a P, However OP  states that 

"With rifle, engage the 10 rifle knock-down targets".

"The first three rounds knock down the first three targets. 

Shooter misses the fourth target with the fourth shot. 

Shooter re-engages the fourth target, knocks it down!"

Meaning that Shooter did not engage all 10 rifle targets with the rifle as instructed shooter only engaged 9 of the rifle targets, #4 was engaged twice.  

How could this not at least be a P for not engaging all rifle targets with the rifle. I shoot at several clubs and the unwritten rule for a target that falls or was not set before the stage is shot is that the shooter shoots where it would be. No misses. So u8nless the OP was posting the instructions different than written I stand by my call. And will gladly hand the spotting stick/timer to someone else if I am wrong!

Rafe

 

 

Rafe,

You make an excellent point.    BUT,  because the instructions were not to "SWEEP"

the rifle targets, the 4th shot could be intended for that target that was already down.

Therefore, engagement of all 10 could be within the scenario.

 

Does anyone know exactly what rifle target was hit with the errant pistol shot?

 

Did the shooter admit to the '4th & 5th shot" engagement on target #4?

 

Its hard to know exactly how this panned out unless we know the stage setup, what

rifle target was down, etc........

 

Just my opinion, of course.    I ain't slept at a Holiday Inn Express in a long time.

 

If we look at the stage drawing posted by the thread originator, you can see

that a miss on pistol target #4 could possibly be the round that hit rifle target

#5........... which makes it possible to engage #5 before #4.   We don't know what

rifle target was actually hit with the pistol.

Again, there is nothing in the information we have been given that mentions the

rifle targets were a 'sweep'.   Therefore, any order of engagement is permissible,

including the downed plate.

 

..........Widder

 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

10 minutes ago, Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 said:

If written that way, you'd want to make absolutely certain the rifle targets COULDN'T be hit with an errant pistol round.

I agree - not a big fan of (potentially) punishing the shooter for choices made during stage design.

 

Easy change would be setting targets with a complete offset - rifle array and pistol array not in line with each other.

Shoot pistols - move to 2nd position - shoot rifle.

 

OR

 

If the bays are not wide enough to provide for the offset array above and it HAS to be set rifle directly behind pistol.

Then an option is to provide a "just in case" target for the possibility of a rifle target falling.

If your rifle knockdowns are 6 inch rounds - set a static 6 inch round with the instruction - any rifle kd that is downed by anything other than rifle i.e. by wind, vibration or errant pistol round - those rounds are now designated to the static target.

This takes care of errant pistol round issues and the "shoot where it was" issues.

Requiring 10 shots/ 10 hits; regardless of whether kd or static target.

 

If you worry that they may game the situation anyways -

You can either warn them about the Spirit of the Game - and pull the trigger on it if it happens. 

Or

you can require a target order on rifle and require they hit the static target "in order" with the knockdowns - meaning if rifle kd 4 and rifle kd 6 were downed by pistol - shooter would still have to engage targets in "order" with the static target replacing the downed targets.

example:

kd1, kd2, kd3, static target, kd5, static target, kd7, kd8, kd9, kd10. 

 

But if you want MY stage thoughts?

 

Heres what I would do.

 

***** ΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩ 

                                        ©          

                ¤¤¤¤¤

 

* = Empty shotgun shells standing on a two by four board (5 to the side of the rifle knockdowns) if you screw a couple flat head screws into the board just shy of flush and just wide enough to push a shotgun shell between - this traps the rim   (like an extractor).  A round hitting the shell will knock it free but a hit on the board generally will not knock it off.

Ω = rifle knockdowns

© = static shotgun target/ plate, bell, etc.

¤ = pistol knockdowns.

 

 

At BEEP: 

With pistols - engage the 5 pistol knockdowns and then any 5 rifle knockdowns as desired.

 

With rifle - engage ALL rifle knockdowns still standing.

Then shooter is to engage the shotgun shell targets with their remaining rounds.

 

Shooter MAY then (it is not required) engage the static shotgun target 1x for each still standing target  to "erase" their misses (pistol kd, rifle kd or empty shotshell target) (a shooter with MORE than 6 standing targets only requires an engagement of 6 times to be considered clean)  a shooter choosing to not engage the static target is assigned a miss penalty for each standing target remaining.

 

Now we have eliminated Spirit of the Game calls.

Eliminated "errant" pistol round issues.

And made a fun, yet challenging stage that still has the allowance for the shooter to be clean.

 

 

 

 

 

[Rafe Conager SASS #56958]

Creekers stage would Absolutely eliminate any what ifs, Most  folks I have shot with would abide by any call made on the ops stage, however there are shooters that would argue with a fence post over a call. I have been know to make calls on myself. 

Rafe

[Shawnee Hills]

Just judging by the clubs that I shoot with, I would have earned a P and likely a miss on that stage.  Now, I'm not complaining about those clubs at all.  It's just the way it is and I enjoy shooting with them.  But I digress.

 

Want to make this even simpler? 

10 falling rifle plates with a dump plate to the side.

5 pistol plates with a dump to the side.

 

Pistols are shot first with all plates KD and any extra rounds put on the dump.

Rifle plates are KD with the rifle with any extra rounds put on that dump.  Any plates already down are . . . well . . . down.  Lucky shooter.

Only plates left standing or misses on the dump are counted as misses.

Finish with shotgun.

Next shooter.

[John Kloehr]

4 hours ago, Rafe Conager SASS #56958 said:

...I shoot at several clubs and the unwritten rule for a target that falls or was not set before the stage is shot is that the shooter shoots where it would be.

The SASS Handbook has a written rule. The shooter "should" shoot where it was.

 

The handbook does not link this to any penalty, not a miss, not a P, and not a SoG. There is only a "should."

 

Now the next shooter sees what went down above, and fully comprehends the stage instructions.

 

This shooter comes to the line and shoots 4 of the pistol targets, then knocks down 5 of the rifle targets before shooting the 5th pistol target(not going for the dump plate at all) before switching to rifle...

 

Then engaging the remaining 5 rifle targets before dumping 5 rounds into the berm...

 

Well, still no misses, not a P either. What I tried to create with this scenario is a SoG. On the assumption the rifle targets where easily engaged by pistol. Did I succeed?

 

On edit: Shooter intent is a factor discussed earlier. Hard to not see intent for my hypothetical next shooter.

[Chief Rick]

5 hours ago, Rafe Conager SASS #56958 said:

I am not trying to GIVE the shooter a miss or a P, However OP  states that 

"With rifle, engage the 10 rifle knock-down targets".

"The first three rounds knock down the first three targets. 

Shooter misses the fourth target with the fourth shot. 

Shooter re-engages the fourth target, knocks it down!"

Meaning that Shooter did not engage all 10 rifle targets with the rifle as instructed shooter only engaged 9 of the rifle targets, #4 was engaged twice.  

How could this not at least be a P for not engaging all rifle targets with the rifle. I shoot at several clubs and the unwritten rule for a target that falls or was not set before the stage is shot is that the shooter shoots where it would be. No misses. So u8nless the OP was posting the instructions different than written I stand by my call. And will gladly hand the spotting stick/timer to someone else if I am wrong!

Rafe

 

Rafe,

 

Since I'm the one that wrote the original, allow me to modify it by stating:

 

The first three rifle rounds knocked down the first three rifle targets. 

Shooter missed with the fourth shot. 

Shooter then knocked down the remaining standing rifle targets.

 

Without questioning the shooter or assuming the shooter's intentions - what's the call?

Not assuming where the shooter was aiming or their intentions.  There were nine standing rifle targets when the shooter started with the rifle.  There were 10 shots fired and no standing rifle targets when the shooter completed the rifle string.

[Chief Rick]

55 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

 

This shooter comes to the line and shoots 4 of the pistol targets, then knocks down 5 of the rifle targets before shooting the 5th pistol target(not going for the dump plate at all) before switching to rifle...

 

Then engaging the remaining 5 rifle targets before dumping 5 rounds into the berm...

 

Well, still no misses, not a P either. What I tried to create with this scenario is a SoG. On the assumption the rifle targets where easily engaged by pistol. Did I succeed?

 

On edit: Shooter intent is a factor discussed earlier. Hard to not see intent for my hypothetical next shooter.

I'm glad I don't knowingly shoot with this type of shooter.

[DeaconKC]

Found a snapshot of PWB on threads like these.

[Rafe Conager SASS #56958]

Chief Rick,  I hope you don't think I am questioning how you wrote the post.  There was no order of how a shooter engages the targets just which weapon and how many targets that needed to be engaged. Not being there I can only comment on how I would call it.  

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

2 hours ago, John Kloehr said:

The SASS Handbook has a written rule. The shooter "should" shoot where it was.

 

The handbook does not link this to any penalty, not a miss, not a P, and not a SoG. There is only a "should."

 

Now the next shooter sees what went down above, and fully comprehends the stage instructions.

 

This shooter comes to the line and shoots 4 of the pistol targets, then knocks down 5 of the rifle targets before shooting the 5th pistol target(not going for the dump plate at all) before switching to rifle...

 

Then engaging the remaining 5 rifle targets before dumping 5 rounds into the berm...

 

Well, still no misses, not a P either. What I tried to create with this scenario is a SoG. On the assumption the rifle targets where easily engaged by pistol. Did I succeed?

 

On edit: Shooter intent is a factor discussed earlier. Hard to not see intent for my hypothetical next shooter.

Intent is clear - they intended to shoot rifle targets with their pistol.

 

But IF you really want to follow this down our hypothetical rabbit hole...

Spirit of the Game penalties ONLY apply to actions done intentionally /deliberately to gain an advantage.

 

I question how many would accept the premise that engaging rifle targets with pistol creates an advantage over shooters engaging rifle targets with the rifle?

And without that very specific component - SoG is not a valid penalty.

 

Just because "we" think someone should not do something; because "we" think it is wrong or because it doesn't look right does NOT make it illegal.

 

Our rules are not fluid or malleable.

In the absence of an appliciable rule - we cannot just apply a "just because" penalty or bend current rules to fit.

 

As stage writers - WE have to consider the opportunities we create by our instructions and target arrays and either modify our setups or create one time stage specific, situational rules to address these possibilities.

If WE fail to do so - that is on us; not the shooter who out thinks us.

 

 

 

[Barry Sloe]

2 hours ago, Chief Rick said:

The first three rifle rounds knocked down the first three rifle targets. 

Shooter missed with the fourth shot. 

Shooter then knocked down the remaining standing rifle targets.

 

Chief  - shooter had 10 rounds to knock down 10 targets.  Per the OP he missed the 4th target, re-engaged the 4th target knocking it down, then knocked down the other standing targets.  At that point he had no rounds left to "engage, shoot where it was" for the target that was knocked down by a pistol round.  

The fact that all the rifle targets are down does not negate the fact that one rifle target was never engaged/shot at with the rifle. 

One miss on target #4 and one miss for the target that wasn't engaged.

 

BS

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

5 hours ago, Barry Sloe said:

One miss on target #4 and one miss for the target that wasn't engaged.

 

BS

How?

If there is NO target to engage - how can you punish them for not engaging?

 

There were only NINE targets available for engagement.  

 

The shooter has TEN rounds to place down range.

 

The shooters ONLY requirement is to place NINE rounds on the NINE available targets and ONE round safely down range NOT striking any target and in the absence of a required sequence they may do so in any order.

 

At the end of the shooting string - 

10 rounds discharged - 10 targets down.

You cannot call a miss.

 

At the end of the shooting string -

ALL targets were engaged.

The standing (available) targets were each obviously engaged by being struck by a rifle round. 

 

The fallen (unavailable) target was engaged by the downrange cycling and discharge of the round that did not strike a target.

If you are going to counter with "I don't think he shot 'where it was' at the downed target - so thats not engaged"

Well...

"Engagement" per the handbooks, does not have an accuracy component.

Engagement does not even require a round to discharge.

Engagement is clearly defined and the shooters actions satisfy those conditions.

 

You cannot call a failure to engage.

[Barry Sloe]

So, with your logic - if I am shooting a plate rack, 6 knock downs, my first shot hits the frame and all the targets go down. I'm done with the plate rack and just dump the other loads?  Not where I've been shooting.  You shoot where the target(s) were at, then dump the extra rounds.

 

BS

[Captain Bill Burt]

15 minutes ago, Barry Sloe said:

So, with your logic - if I am shooting a plate rack, 6 knock downs, my first shot hits the frame and all the targets go down. I'm done with the plate rack and just dump the other loads?  Not where I've been shooting.  You shoot where the target(s) were at, then dump the extra rounds.

 

BS

If it's a plate rack, and all targets are down, shouldn't you be putting the remaining rounds on a static (dump) target?  I've never seen a single shot drop six targets on a plate rack.  I have seen someone hit the rack and drop two or three targets.  In that case, remaining rounds go on the dump target, shooting where the plates were will give you misses. 

 

I did once shoot the smallest plate on a tombstone rack, knock it down only to have it immediately bounce back up, shoot it again downing it only to have it bounce back up, at which point I said 'that target is down!' and moved to the dump target with the remaining rounds.  I think everyone on the posse enjoyed that more than I did.

[SGT. ELI 35882 GUNFIGHTER]

17 minutes ago, Barry Sloe said:

So, with your logic - if I am shooting a plate rack, 6 knock downs, my first shot hits the frame and all the targets go down. I'm done with the plate rack and just dump the other loads?  Not where I've been shooting.  You shoot where the target(s) were at, then dump the extra rounds.

 

BS

You have 10 shots to take down 6 plates, all plates are down after first shot, remaining 9 go to the dump target.

[Ranger Dan]

47 minutes ago, Barry Sloe said:

So, with your logic - if I am shooting a plate rack, 6 knock downs, my first shot hits the frame and all the targets go down. I'm done with the plate rack and just dump the other loads?  Not where I've been shooting.  You shoot where the target(s) were at, then dump the extra rounds.

 

BS

Yes, that is exactly how it works. Knockdowns are scored as hits when down, doesn't matter how. Wind could blow them down or an errant pistol shot could hit them. Without a "dump target" to place the remaining rounds on, the shooter is left with "safely down range".

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

1 hour ago, Barry Sloe said:

So, with your logic - if I am shooting a plate rack, 6 knock downs, my first shot hits the frame and all the targets go down. I'm done with the plate rack and just dump the other loads?  Not where I've been shooting.  You shoot where the target(s) were at, then dump the extra rounds.

 

BS

 

When there are no knockdowns to engage with - the remaining rounds have to go somewhere.

 

In your example:

You fire ONE round - all the plates fall.

Attribute it to rack vibration, wind, earthquake or ghosts - the reason "why" does not matter.

If there is a dump plate.

EVERY single remaining round that fails to strike steel is a MISS.

 

If there is no dump plate - all the remaining rounds go into the back berm.

And NO one has any expectation that your going to aim, fire, then move your gun barrel laterally two inches to the next shot, aim and fire, again and again to simulate firing at each individual target.

 

The "shoot where it was" direction was actually created for shotgun targets:

1.  To avoid shooters firing directly at an already downed target - thereby not damaging targets and creating misdirected splatter.

2.  To provide for the safe directional discharge of loaded shotguns that satisfies round counts.

3.  There is no guidance or requirement for how near the shell must pass "where it was"

 

It is also used in the event of fallen static targets to provide direction for safe discharge of rifle or pistol when rounds DO have a required sequence with specific rounds corresponding with specific targets.

But again, there is NO guidance for how closely the round must go to where the target once was.  

 

The plate rack is downrange.

Firing safely downrange is satisfying the requirement of firing where the target once were.

Trying to assign misses is impossible if there is no target available to miss.

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

Hypotheticals aside... is the horse dead yet???

[Captain Bill Burt]

1 minute ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

Hypotheticals aside... is the horse dead yet???

Probably not.  There certainly isn't a consensus with some calling misses, some calling Ps, some calling both and some calling clean.

[Black Angus McPherson]

On 4/7/2024 at 1:29 PM, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

 

 

But if you want MY stage thoughts?

 

Heres what I would do.

 

***** ΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩ 

                                        ©          

                ¤¤¤¤¤

 

* = Empty shotgun shells standing on a two by four board (5 to the side of the rifle knockdowns) if you screw a couple flat head screws into the board just shy of flush and just wide enough to push a shotgun shell between - this traps the rim   (like an extractor).  A round hitting the shell will knock it free but a hit on the board generally will not knock it off.

Ω = rifle knockdowns

© = static shotgun target/ plate, bell, etc.

¤ = pistol knockdowns.

 

 

At BEEP: 

With pistols - engage the 5 pistol knockdowns and then any 5 rifle knockdowns as desired.

 

With rifle - engage ALL rifle knockdowns still standing.

Then shooter is to engage the shotgun shell targets with their remaining rounds.

 

Shooter MAY then (it is not required) engage the static shotgun target 1x for each still standing target  to "erase" their misses (pistol kd, rifle kd or empty shotshell target) (a shooter with MORE than 6 standing targets only requires an engagement of 6 times to be considered clean)  a shooter choosing to not engage the static target is assigned a miss penalty for each standing target remaining.

 

Now we have eliminated Spirit of the Game calls.

Eliminated "errant" pistol round issues.

And made a fun, yet challenging stage that still has the allowance for the shooter to be clean.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm guessing (hoping?) you're joking.  You replace a stage with 15 KD's (5 Pistol + 10 Rifle) with a stage that has 20 KD's 5 of which are shotgun shells?  It may be fun (for some) but, if you start replacing normal KD's with shotgun shells I think you're gonna get lynched.  BTW, whatcha gonna do if someone hits the shotgun shells with the pistol.  Another "What's the call"?  

 

Angus

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Since this has gone off track with hypothetical "What if...?"s and stage rewrites...

 

The correct call (i.e. CLEAN!) was made for the reasons explained (in detail) by @Creeker, SASS #43022 et al.
 

 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]