.38 Special in a short stroked 1866 Cimmaron.

[Old Irish Shooter]

Would you run this in a lever gun? They work well in it but it’s not a flat point. When I load my flat points the bolt will not close but it will close if I seat the flat nose bullet deeper than minimum overall length. I use start loads for powder so no where near maximum pressure but even with start loads seating deeper increases pressure. The tip of the bullet I have pictured will work but I don’t want to gamble with magazine tube explosion. Thoughts? 

[Tyrel Cody]

I personally would not.

[BenW]

Try a truncated cone bullet... seat it to your preferred overall length and crimp.  They run perfectly through my .357/.38 Special rifle.

[ORNERY OAF]

Wouldn't take a chance in a nice rifle

[Old Irish Shooter]

Glad I asked. I know it’s domed pretty well but just not willing to take a chance. I am though going to load a truncated bullet as suggested above. 

[Deuce Stevens SASS#55996]

10 hours ago, Old Irish Shooter said:

Would you run this in a lever gun? They work well in it but it’s not a flat point. When I load my flat points the bolt will not close but it will close if I seat the flat nose bullet deeper than minimum overall length. I use start loads for powder so no where near maximum pressure but even with start loads seating deeper increases pressure. The tip of the bullet I have pictured will work but I don’t want to gamble with magazine tube explosion. Thoughts? 

What flat point bullet are you loading and what OAL is it at? 

[BLACKFOOT SASS #11947]

No!

Blackfoot

[Kid Rich]

Take one of the bullets that won't allow you to close the bolt all the way coat it with magic marker and try to close the bolt until you feel resistance when you remove it you should be able to see where the problem is. I suspect the ogive of the bullet is the problem.

kR

[Snakebite]

At my first large annual match in the early 90's I had a round blow off in the magazine of a 45 Henry Rifle. It blew a large hole in my left hand. I wouldn't use that bullet style. There are a lot of Truncated cone bullets that would be better suited for a tubular magazine.    

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

13 hours ago, Old Irish Shooter said:

... but it will close if I seat the flat nose bullet deeper than minimum overall length. ...

3 hours ago, Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 said:

What flat point bullet are you loading and what OAL is it at? 

 

1 hour ago, Kid Rich said:

Take one of the bullets that won't allow you to close the bolt all the way coat it with magic marker and try to close the bolt until you feel resistance when you remove it you should be able to see where the problem is. I suspect the ogive of the bullet is the problem.

kR

These are important questions.  The required OAL to cycle in these rifles is fairly wide-ranging but if you get too short or too long, it jams.  1.6" is about the hard max (not a problem with .38's)  The minimum varies by rifle but is usually around 1.42 to 1.45 range.  If it is too short or too long, that prevents the carrier from rising, but the round should still chamber.   So maybe it's the ogive catching the edge of the chamber like Kid Rich says and by shortening it a smaller portion of the bullet is easier to get started in the chamber?  But here's another thing.  What type of short stroke?  I know some of them require you to bend the lifter arm up or down as necessary.  If your carrier is a tad too high or too low then the bullet is more likely to catch the edge of the chamber.

[Old Irish Shooter]

The short stroke and work was done by Jim Finch. I bought the rifle set up from a fellow member. When I get back from my doctors appointment I will post a picture of the bullet I am having problems with. It could very well be catching on the ogive and seating deeper may help. The bullet is a 158 grain RNFP by Scarlett. I only use starting point of 5.0 grains of True Blue so pressure should not be a problem. Having said this I also have 125 grain truncated bullets from Missouri Bullet Company I am going to load a few dummy rounds and cycle through the action, later today.

[Hellbender]

3 hours ago, Old Irish Shooter said:

 The bullet is a 158 grain RNFP by Scarlett. I only use starting point of 5.0 grains of True Blue so pressure should not be a problem. Having said this I also have 125 grain truncated bullets from Missouri Bullet Company I am going to load a few dummy rounds and cycle through the action, later today.

I also use 158 grain RNFP bullets by Scarlett in my 1866 and have never had problems with them.  I load them with either 3.2 or 3.4 grain Trail Boss (yes, I still have some) to an overall length of 1.50.  I've also used 125 grain truncated cone bullets by Scarlett and others in the same gun to an OAL of around 1.45" with the same Trail Boss load, again with no problems.

Edited February 6 by Hellbender

[Lead Monger]

I have run thousands of the 125g truncated cone bullets from Missouri and SnS bullet companies through a 66 and now a 73. Simply crimp in the groove and they just squirt through both rifles.

[Three Foot Johnson]

I wouldn't worry about it. We shot a lot of RN .30-30, .32 Winchester Special, .35 Remington, etc., for decades with no problems. Ya, I know, rifle primers vs pistol primers. I still don't worry about it. I've shot a lot of Lyman 358311's in tubular mags (158 grain RN).

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Running Round Nose bullets thru a tubular magazine is a NO NO.  There are those who say they do it with "no problem" only because they have been lucky.  A round nose up against the primer is BAD JOSS.  105Gr Truncated Cone or 125Gr Truncated Cone are the "GO-TO" bullets for most shooters of 38 Special toggle Link Rifles.  Crimped in the crimp groove, they run like grain thru a Goose.

[Blue Eyed Drifter]

Minimum OAL is determined by the rifle set up. Did. Ask the person you got from what length they loaded at? While the wife and I shoot B Western we can not shoot a 66 or 73.  But our OAL run between 1.310  on one. 1.328 on another and anywhere between empty case and 1.500 on the Widder.  Set OAL to what you gun likes not what the book says

[Old Irish Shooter]

I still want to load some truncated rounds but wife and I have been busy with appointments, just getting over back surgery and getting back to normal. I was told by seller to load to 1.490 but I need to ask what bullet he was using. My bullets will not work at 1.490, too long. 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

I say forget going for a specific OAL.  If the bullet has a crimp groove, use that.  If it is a truncated cone bullet it will almost certainly be long enough to properly feed.  As I said earlier, anything between about 1.42 or so and 1.6 will be good.  Load up at least two (dummies would be good) and try them for function.  (even a round that is too short will feed fine if it is the only one you load into the loading gate.  You need to load at least two thru the gate to find out if they are too short or not).  Good luck, with loading and with your recovery!

[Three Foot Johnson]

Gives me a great idea for a new alias - Lucky Round Nose. 

[Dad Vernedbarmit]

I totally agree with Three Foot Johnson . Just an old Cattle Baron signing in. That being said I load RNFP in my .357 1873 and 38-40 1866.

[Rye Miles #13621]

I go along with the others who said no! I wouldn’t take the chance. I use nothing but RNFP. 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

15 hours ago, Old Irish Shooter said:

I was told by seller to load to 1.490 but I need to ask what bullet he was using. My bullets will not work at 1.490, too long. 

You can look down into the carrier and SEE if your load is too short for your toggle link gun.    The shortest length that will not jam the carrier with one round cleanly on the carrier and part of another also out on the carrier, is that the rim of the second cartridge has to be on (vertically above) the downward sloping ramp  on the front edge of the carrier.  If the rim is far enough rearward to be close to or on the FLAT inside the carrier's channel, it will not be able to be pushed back into the mag tube when the carrier rises. This results in a jam of the lever as you begin to bring the lever back toward your face.   

 

And the rounds are too long IF the nose of the only cartridge in the carrier is hanging up in the magazine or hitting the frame as you start to close the lever stroke.   The shaft of the carrier is 1.600" on modern made Uberti toggle links.  It was 1.500" on very early production .38 special only lever guns.

 

If your gun is jamming as you try to finish the chambering portion of the stroke, then it's not due to a short length of the cartridge.  It is commonly caused by trying to shoot a poor design of slug for a lever gun, such as a SemiWadCutter (SWC) design.

 

That number he supplied with the gun (1.490")  is a very short OAL for an Uberti toggle link gun, unless the carrier has been modified for a very "long" slope of the cartridge return ramp.  Or this is a gun that was made way back in the 1980s or so when a shorter carrier was the standard for a .38 special Uberti lever gun.  Measure your carrier shaft length (forward/back direction) in the frame.  It will give you the MAXIMUM working length  of your cartridges.

 

Your loads are "TOO LONG"?    At 1.490?   Think you mean they are too short, if you have a gun made this century. 

 

good luck, GJ

Edited February 8 by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

2 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

...That number he supplied with the gun (1.490")  is a very short OAL for an Uberti toggle link gun,...

That is not very short for 38 special.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 8 by Abilene, SASS # 27489
typo

[Old Irish Shooter]

It is long with a RNFP 158 grain. It will cycle a round nose, pictured above, at 1.485. 

[Sedalia Dave]

14 minutes ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

Not is not very short for 38 special.

 

Yep,

 

As far as I know Uberti never made an 1866 in .357. Only 38 Special.

 

 

 

[Sedalia Dave]

Your issue is that the ogive of the bullet is hitting the rifling. If you want to continue to use the 158 gr RNFP you need to shorten your OAL. 

 

Notice the significant difference in the ogive of these two bullets Both are 158 grain.

 

 

A little looking online shows that the COAL a 158 gr LRNFP in 38 special runs between 1.353" and about 1.450" Your COAL of 1.485 is more in line with what is recommended for LSWC and LTC bullet profiles.

 

I strongly suggest you get the Lyman Cast bullet Handbook and a couple other print reloading books and do your own research. Keep in mind that load data is not just about bullet weight but internal case volume as well. Using load data developed for a particular bullet profile can cause problems when applied to a different bullet profile.

 

Corrected cartridge OAL

Edited February 8 by Sedalia Dave

[Three Foot Johnson]

40 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

Yep,

 

As far as I know Uberti never made an 1866 in .357. Only 38 Special.

 

 

 

Yes and no. I've never seen one marked .357, but I've seen a few (three/four maybe) with .357 chambers. Maybe they ran short of barrels and used '73 barrels instead, who knows.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

13 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

...A little looking online shows that the COAL a 158 gr LRNFP in 38 special runs between 1.135" and about 1.145" Ypour COAL of 1.149 is more in line with what is recommended for LSWC and LTC bullet profiles....

Dave, I think you typo'd those numbers.

Edited February 8 by Abilene, SASS # 27489
typo!

[Sedalia Dave]

1 minute ago, Three Foot Johnson said:

Yes and no. I've never seen one marked .357, but I've seen a few (three/four maybe) with .357 chambers. Maybe they ran short of barrels and used '73 barrels instead, who knows.

 

What I wonder is do the 66's in 38 special have a shorter carrier. 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

4 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

What I wonder is do the 66's in 38 special have a shorter carrier. 

No.  You can look at parts lists and there is only one large caliber and one small caliber carrier (excluding .22)

 

edit to add: the ramp on the carrier has been extended over time.

and obviously we are not talking about the original Navy Arms guns with the short carrier.

Edited February 8 by Abilene, SASS # 27489

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

4 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

I wonder ...  do the 66's in 38 special have a shorter carrier. 

YES!   Slapping forehead.   SOME Uberti 1866 were made very early on (1980s) with a short carrier length and chambered for .38 Special ONLY.    I know this for certain, as I used to have one in the family and did have to load short rounds to fit that 1.500" carrier block and shaft.  Many were imported by Navy Arms.  As the story goes, the Italians claimed they designed their 1866 clone early on to take the ammo that the US military issued and that was a very short-nose FMJ slug in a .38 special case.  Only after importing them that way for a few years, the US customers demanded a .45 Colt version, and Uberti wised up and stretched the frame design to hold a 1.600" carrier (lifter) block.

 

But, if this IS TRULY a more-modern made gun (this century), it will have a carrier shaft of 1.600", like Uberti builds all their toggle lever guns now.

 

So, it would be VERY unlikely that a 1.490" Overall Length of cartridge is TOO LONG to feed it.

 

So, the OP seems very confused.   He stated a 1.490" cartridge would not feed because it is too long.   I've already asked that he VERIFY the carrier block or shaft length measurement.  I've already asked the OP to verify that he really means that cartridge "won't feed" because it is too long.    I've already asked the OP if the gun fails to feed during the beginning of the rearward stroke of the lever (which would likely be a failure to return the second cartridge on the carrier due to TOO SHORT an OAL) or if the gun jams with the cartridge already partially in the chamber near the end of the lever stroke, which could be a VERY poor bullet design that he chose or a fat slug or a dirty/tight chamber or even a ring of brass left in chamber from a separated case.   We can't get a clear picture of what the REAL problem is, UNTIL THE OP REPLIES with more information!

 

good luck, GJ

Edited February 8 by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708

[Old Irish Shooter]

Ok so this is only a 38 Special chamber only. Sorry I am just getting back on my feet from open back surgery but I will measure the carrier. I have had many appointments the last few days. So the dummy round acts too long in the chamber and the lever will not close. My reloading books, one specific I use for this round, has a minimum overall length for the 158 Grain LRFP bullet with 5.0 grains of True Blue, a start load. Let me get some measurements and I will report back.

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

1 hour ago, Old Irish Shooter said:

Ok so this is only a 38 Special chamber only. Sorry I am just getting back on my feet from open back surgery but I will measure the carrier. I have had many appointments the last few days. So the dummy round acts too long in the chamber and the lever will not close. My reloading books, one specific I use for this round, has a minimum overall length for the 158 Grain LRFP bullet with 5.0 grains of True Blue, a start load. Let me get some measurements and I will report back.

Wish you the best with recovering from your back surgery.

[Kid Rich]

13 hours ago, Old Irish Shooter said:

Ok so this is only a 38 Special chamber only. Sorry I am just getting back on my feet from open back surgery but I will measure the carrier. I have had many appointments the last few days. So the dummy round acts too long in the chamber and the lever will not close. My reloading books, one specific I use for this round, has a minimum overall length for the 158 Grain LRFP bullet with 5.0 grains of True Blue, a start load. Let me get some measurements and I will report back.

Try marking your round with magic marker and then inserting it. You don't need to measure anything you will know where the problem is. no need to fiddle around. you will have the answer faster than you could read any of these replies or answer them.

kR

[Too Tall Bob]

Can you post a picture of a ctg loaded with the 158 gn flat point bullet that jams for you?  Just curious 

thanx