How weird are you

[Alpo]

Or maybe a better question would be are you as weird as I am?

 

Father Kit, in his thread about silenced pistols, is asking for real life experience with the Smith & Wesson victory.

 

If I was looking for a 22 automatic pistol - which I am not - I would not buy a Smith & Wesson victory. Why? Because a Smith and Wesson Victory is a 38 K frame double action revolver that was made between 1940 and 1945. It is not a 22 automatic.

 

If I was looking for a plastic automatic pistol, or an AR-15 clone - neither of which I am looking for - I would not buy a Smith & Wesson M&P. Why? Because a Smith & Wesson M&P is a 38 special K frame double action revolver. It is not a plastic fantastic automatic pistol in 9mm or 40 Smith or 45. It also is not an AR-15 wannabe.

 

If I was looking for a chief special - which I actually am but not one of these - I would not buy a new Chief Special, because a chief special is a five shot j-frame 38 Special revolver. It is not a plastic fantastic small frame 9 mm automatic.

 

Back in the sixties Ruger made a single shot pistol based on their Blackhawk revolver. It was chambered in 256 Winchester magnum and it was called the Hawkeye. Some years back Ruger brought out a variation of their bolt action rifle, which they called the Hawkeye. If I was looking for a lightweight bolt action rifle, I would not buy one of these, even if it met every one of my criteria for purchase. Because that's not a Hawkeye.

 

I know. I'm weird.

 

[Subdeacon Joe]

46 minutes ago, Alpo said:

Because a Smith and Wesson Victory is a 38 K frame double action revolver that was made between 1940 and 1945. It is not a 22 automatic

 

 

 

yep.... that's a revolver 

 

https://www.smith-wesson.com/product/sw22-victory-

 

 

 

 

[Alpo]

12 minutes ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

yep.... that's a revolver 

Yes, yes it is.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/v-is-for-victory-the-smith-wesson-victory-model-revolver/

 

[Captain Bill Burt]

Extremely.

[Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770]

Alpo, you're being hard headed and cantankerous. I like it. Slapping an old, recognized name on a new product is borderline deceitful. 

The way Ford did it with the new Maverick is the same thing. The Maverick was a midsize car, an economy model for the time. The new one is a truck. 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

So by this logic - we should feed the poster to our dogs.

Because Alpo is a canned wet dog food - not an internet poster with interesting views.

 

Sometimes, multiple things can have the same name.

Honda lawnmower - Honda Civic - Honda Gold Wing.

I certainly wouldn't refuse to buy a Honda generator because its not a step thru scooter.

 

Sometimes, generations of products evolve  while the name remains consistent.

The 1953 Corvette is certainly not the same car as a 2024 model and even more removed from the electric E Ray.

 

The Military & Police firearm of yesterday (38 spl. revolver) has evolved to encompass the equipment used today by Military & Police (full size semi auto pistols and AR platform rifles).   

 

Sometimes the name is to evoke and carry on the mission from the original.

The original Maverick was a cheap, entry level car.  But no one buys cars anymore.  So the current Maverick is a cheap, entry level pickup truck. 

 

The Chief Special name evokes a small carry gun for concealment and carry by a plainclothes "Chief".

Whether a 5 shot revolver or small polymer 9mm semi auto - they serve the same mission and carry the same name.

 

So yes - you're weird.

[Rye Miles #13621]

15 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

So by this logic - we should feed the poster to our dogs.

Because Alpo is a canned wet dog food - not an internet poster with interesting views.

 

Sometimes, multiple things can have the same name.

Honda lawnmower - Honda Civic - Honda Gold Wing.

I certainly wouldn't refuse to buy a Honda generator because its not a step thru scooter.

 

Sometimes, generations of products evolve  while the name remains consistent.

The 1953 Corvette is certainly not the same car as a 2024 model and even more removed from the electric E Ray.

 

The Military & Police firearm of yesterday (38 spl. revolver) has evolved to encompass the equipment used today by Military & Police (full size semi auto pistols and AR platform rifles).   

 

Sometimes the name is to evoke and carry on the mission from the original.

The original Maverick was a cheap, entry level car.  But no one buys cars anymore.  So the current Maverick is a cheap, entry level pickup truck. 

 

The Chief Special name evokes a small carry gun for concealment and carry by a plainclothes "Chief".

Whether a 5 shot revolver or small polymer 9mm semi auto - they serve the same mission and carry the same name.

 

So yes - you're weird.

Well said  Creeker! 

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Alpo, Alpo, Alpo!

 

Let me just say....."Ruff, ruff, ruff.......... 'growl with a few barks'.

 

 

..........Widder

 

[Old Man Graybeard]

As far as the new Smith and Wesson Victory…a friend of mine has one. And it is a Performance Center. What a genuine piece of crap

[Michigan Slim]

As to your original question: Yes, you are the crazy cat lady of SASS. Weird as can be. 

As to your reasoning, I get it. Your logic is twisted, but still logic. 

In my opinion, the Ruger Hawkeye rifle is a fine gun and a better use of the name than the original. 

The Maverick is just a different shape of turd. 

[Pat Riot]

Who freakin’ cares what they call their products? You don’t have to buy them if you don’t like them. 
One of the reasons companies use names over and over is trademarks and copyrights. They already own the names Victory, M&P, Maverick or whatever. It costs them nothing to use those names.
If they wanted to call their product something else a lot of research goes into it to make sure they aren’t taking someone else’s name that could cost them a lot in lawsuits and litigation.  It costs a great deal of money to have legal teams looking for possible name infringement for products. 
Using names they already own saves them money and time and they already have name recognition that goes with their brand. 
 

 

 

[Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619]

I'm with Alpo.

 

Henry rifles continue the great tradition of Winchester, right?

 

Then there's my Browning BAR, a hunting rifle in 300 win mag. It's a nice gun, but Browning seems to say that it's the continuation of the real Browing BAR....

 

Bah humbug to this marketing BS.....

[watab kid]

well im at least half as weird as you are i guess -

 

i do have an original WWI S&W M1917 in 45ACP ,  its a shouldered cylinder and does not require the disc that the colts did and i have the sig M1917 in 9mm , i love both of them , it was the military that put the name on them , 

 

i do have that original WWII S&W victory in 38 spcl , but i also have that S&W victory 22 , this one the military fingerprint is missing on but i do like both of them very much , 

 

i dont have an M&P and probably wont have either of those , dont have the chiefs special or the hawkeye , doubt i ever will , but ya got me thinkin ..........................

 

came back to say - i did enjoy this thought provoking thread , at first i was offended by the renaming but later i decided it was supposed to be complimentary [even if it wasnt] like naming sports teams after indians and such , too much thin skin in the world these days , being a catholic in a protestant area gave me a view of what the whole thing was about in this world , and growing up in a race divided area added to it , 

the polish jokes , the jew haters , none of it made sense but there it was , so i just accepted the fact that we were going to deal with it throughout life , then theres the recent trend of erasing history , censoring words and redefining things , it all just adds up to BS , 

 

so , renaming a gun after another gun that was well respected - think thats just todays trend with a good twist , i guess long as they dont pretend that somethings not what it is or that what was is less than what it was , im OK with it for now 

[watab kid]

31 minutes ago, Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619 said:

I'm with Alpo.

 

Henry rifles continue the great tradition of Winchester, right?

i guess i thought winchester carried on that henry design but then did they really ? 

 

and todays henry is not yesterdays henry is it ? 

[Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619]

2 minutes ago, watab kid said:

i guess i thought winchester carried on that henry design but then did they really ? 

 

and todays henry is not yesterdays henry is it ? 

 

That being the point. They have deliberately tried to create confusion as a marketing strategy: they have nothing to do with the original Henry or Winchester, its creator. They use weasel words to make it seem so, without actually saying it.

 

Too bad, because I hear they make good rifles, but it's always turned me off.

[Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770]

20 minutes ago, watab kid said:

i guess i thought winchester carried on that henry design but then did they really ? 

 

and todays henry is not yesterdays henry is it ? 

 

15 minutes ago, Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619 said:

 

That being the point. They have deliberately tried to create confusion as a marketing strategy: they have nothing to do with the original Henry or Winchester, its creator. They use weasel words to make it seem so, without actually saying it.

 

Too bad, because I hear they make good rifles, but it's always turned me off.

It's my understanding that the company bought the rights to the name "Henry Repeating Arms Co". That doesn't make them part of Winchester.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

20 minutes ago, Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619 said:

they have nothing to do with the original Henry or Winchester, its creator. They use weasel words to make it seem so, without actually saying it.

So I assume you would NEVER purchase a Chrysler product - which have NOTHING to do with the original manufacturer.

Or a Jeep.

Or Craftsman tools.

Never drive thru a McDonalds.

 

And you certainly would never buy a Uberti rifle that has no relation to the Winchester.

Or a Pietta revolver.

 

Or for that matter - standing on that principle - you would NEVER EVER EVER buy a Winchester product.

Afterall; Winchester was purchsed by Olin - then purchased by US Repeating Arms and licensed off to Miroku.

 

So the current "company" has nothing to do with - no relationship with the original company.

But they certainly imply they do.

[Injun Ryder, SASS #36201L]

Regarding the topic title, I will have to defer the answer to that to the wife. 

 

Please stand by for a loooong answer! 

[Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619]

16 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

 

And you certainly would never buy a Uberti rifle that has no relation to the Winchester.

 

My Uberti 1873 rifle was never passed off as a Winchester, but as a replica of one. 

 

Henry is in no sense the corporate successor of Winchester. Unlike your other examples.

 

One could go on. There's a difference between a frank statement and an attempt to confuse the purchaser.

 

My own personal example  is my Browning BAR Mk. III. It's a great rifle. But it's not a BAR. In the first place, it's not automatic, it's semiauto, so why call it automatic? Especially today, when the public confuses semi-automatics with automatics.

 

It has nothing to do with the real BAR.  But I like it and bought it. But the hype is still pure BS.

[Alpo]

25 minutes ago, Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770 said:

 

It's my understanding that the company bought the rights to the name "Henry Repeating Arms Co". That doesn't make them part of Winchester.

I don't know who they could have bought the rights to the name Henry Repeating Arms from, because until they started up their business there was no Henry Repeating Arms.

 

When shirt maker Oliver Winchester decided to start making rifles, back in 1860, he didn't want to put his name on them. In case it was a flop he did not want to drag down the Winchester Shirt Company.

 

So the 1860 Henry rifle, all six years of its existence, was made by the New Haven Arms Company. When the improved Henry - the 1866 - came out it was made by the Winchester Arms Company. There never was a Henry Repeating Arms Company. Until those folks in New York started one.

 

And they have claimed, from the very beginning, that they are the original people that made the Henry rifle. When they finally started making the 1860 Henry, a few years back, they claimed it was a re-release. That they had brought it back.

 

But they could not bring it back because they never made it in the first place.

 

There's a company making M1 carbines. Calling themselves Inland. They have nothing to do with the Inland guide lamp division of General Motors, who made thousands of M1 carbines during the war. But they're using the name, because people know that Inland was a good carbine.

 

 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

13 minutes ago, Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619 said:

My own personal example  is my Browning BAR Mk. III. It's a great rifle. But it's not a BAR. In the first place, it's not automatic, it's semiauto, so why call it automatic? Especially today, when the public confuses semi-automatics with automatics.

You mean your Browning Bolt Action Rifle?

[Alpo]

I believe I will weigh in on this one.

 

The BAR - the civilian hunting rifle - is indeed an automatic. When semi-automatic firearms first became a thing, back in the very late 1800s, they were called automatic. Because they would automatically eject the empty shell and reload the chamber. Now the guns that would fire as long as you held the trigger down - they were machine guns.

 

Then for some reason don'tKNOWN only to himself, when Mr Browning brought out his portable machine gun in 1917, he called it a Browning Automatic Rifle. But still, nobody else referred to a machine gun as an automatic. An automatic was a 1911 Colt or a 351 Winchester self loader or the 32 FN that they started World War I with. The term semi-automatic was never used. You had automatic, and you had full auto. A 45 was an automatic, and a Thompson was full Auto.

 

Then maybe 30 years ago, for some stupid damn reason, they decided that machine guns would now be called automatic, and what had here-to-fore been known as an automatic would now have to be called SEMI-automatic, and the term full auto would disappear from the firearm enthusiast's lexicon.

 

This is about the same time that THEY (the all knowing they) decided that silencers were no longer silencers, clips were no longer clips, and revolvers were no longer pistols.

[DeaconKC]

Ya know, sometimes I want to unscrew Alpo's head to see what makes it work...but I can't fault his logic either...

[Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770]

1 minute ago, DeaconKC said:

Ya know, sometimes I want to unscrew Alpo's head to see what makes it work.

I'd be afraid of what's in there that he DOESN'T let us see.

[Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770]

28 minutes ago, Alpo said:

I don't know who they could have bought the rights to the name Henry Repeating Arms from, because until they started up their business there was no Henry Repeating Arms.

I thought that I read that somewhere when they released their first lever action .22. I stand corrected.

[watab kid]

1 hour ago, Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619 said:

 

That being the point. They have deliberately tried to create confusion as a marketing strategy: they have nothing to do with the original Henry or Winchester, its creator. They use weasel words to make it seem so, without actually saying it.

 

Too bad, because I hear they make good rifles, but it's always turned me off.

i gotta agree with you here , im also a bit put off with that "american made" label that is false , but then maybe italian stocks are if the wood was grown from american walnut seeds as the cuban cigars are these days , 

 

BTW , i like my cigars , and no i could care less where the seeds came from as long as its a nice smoke 

[watab kid]

1 hour ago, Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770 said:

 

It's my understanding that the company bought the rights to the name "Henry Repeating Arms Co". That doesn't make them part of Winchester.

that much is true , as all of our old american companies have now been bought up and no longer are what they once were - winchester , colt , henry , and so it goes , either bought up or run to the ground like remington , most of what te shoot these days are not made by the originals .....and if you do you might be ruining an original collectible , 

 

ive told a few friend that wanted into this game to buy something they thought of as a great TOOL  as your going to beat it to death or die tryin , i exaggerated but not by much , its why i now shoot rugers  mostly and convinced my friend to do so instead of using his great colts from before colt was a foreign company , 

[Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619]

2 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

You mean your Browning Bolt Action Rifle?

 

No, it's a semi-auto:

 

browning bar mk3 - Search Images (bing.com)

 

I own one. It's a fine rifle. It's not a big deal, maybe, but it's not a forthright way of describing it. That's all. I get that these famous names are re-used for marketing purposes. But it strikes me the wrong way somehow.

[Subdeacon Joe]

10 hours ago, Michigan Slim said:

As to your original question: Yes, you are the crazy cat lady of SASS. Weird as can be. 

As to your reasoning, I get it. Your logic is twisted, but still logic. 

 

That in translation, "Yes, you fit right in here!"

[Michigan Slim]

35 minutes ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

That in translation, "Yes, you fit right in here!"

Yep, that's what I said! 

[Capt. R. Hugh Kidnme]

10 hours ago, DeaconKC said:

Ya know, sometimes I want to unscrew Alpo's head to see what makes it work...but I can't fault his logic either...

Like my Dad always said "you take it apart to see how it works, you better be able to put it back together"

[J.D. Daily]

The owner of the Winchester brand is Olin Corp which only makes chemicals.  The Winchester brand name for firearms is licensed to subsidiaries to FN Herstal.   The FN subsidiary Browning USA.  Browning USA contracts with Miroku to manufacture Winchester brand 1873 & 1894 rifles.

[watab kid]

On 1/24/2024 at 10:31 PM, DeaconKC said:

Ya know, sometimes I want to unscrew Alpo's head to see what makes it work...but I can't fault his logic either...

so what we got here is CATCH 22 ? ill go with that , 

[Pat Riot]

And the new “Winchester” Ranger .22 lever gun is made in Turkey.

 

 

On 1/25/2024 at 12:16 AM, watab kid said:

i gotta agree with you here , im also a bit put off with that "american made" label that is false , but then maybe italian stocks are if the wood was grown from american walnut seeds as the cuban cigars are these days , 

 

BTW , i like my cigars , and no i could care less where the seeds came from as long as its a nice smoke 

Where did you hear their stocks are from Italy?

I wish I could find the email they sent me when I asked them “Are your stocks made in Italy or from Italian wood?” And they said “No, our stocks are harvested and made here in the USA”.

 

It’s just like the other BS that’s making its way through the brain trusts we call online forums that are claiming the Henry Big Boy revolvers have zinc frames.

Well, I asked them about this too and this was their response:

 

Thank you for your interest in Henry firearms.

Big Boy revolver frames consist of a blued-steel upper and polished brass lower.


Thank you for letting me help you today

Regards,

Jeffrey Post
Technical Customer Service
Customer Service: (866)200-2354

[watab kid]

20 hours ago, Pat Riot said:

And the new “Winchester” Ranger .22 lever gun is made in Turkey.

 

 

Where did you hear their stocks are from Italy?

I wish I could find the email they sent me when I asked them “Are your stocks made in Italy or from Italian wood?” And they said “No, our stocks are harvested and made here in the USA”.

 

It’s just like the other BS that’s making its way through the brain trusts we call online forums that are claiming the Henry Big Boy revolvers have zinc frames.

Well, I asked them about this too and this was their response:

 

Thank you for your interest in Henry firearms.

Big Boy revolver frames consist of a blued-steel upper and polished brass lower.


Thank you for letting me help you today

Regards,

Jeffrey Post
Technical Customer Service
Customer Service: (866)200-2354

 

 

 

i know someone that had inside info on that , it could have changed in the last year or so but it was factual before that , sometimes these things are false - i know  their frames are steel and brass , ive seen them , so i understand your comment and agree that is internet garbage ,