End of Trail Wild Bunch Match

[Rattlesnake Slim]

Howdy Cowboys and Cowgirls,

 

The following was emailed to all registered EOT 2024 Wild Bunch shooters. I'm also posting it here for the widest possible distribution.

 

As the entity that produces End of Trail, the SASS World Championship of Wild Bunch and Cowboy Action Shooting, The Arizona Territorial Company of Rough Riders has a contractual obligation to operate under the most current SASS rules and conventions. Misty Moonshine has confirmed to us that the World Championship Wild Bunch match at End of Trail 2024 will be governed by the “Wild Bunch Action Shooting Analysis and Action Plan” which was released November 1, 2023, and scheduled to go into effect January 1, 2024. The exception will be that Teddy Roosevelt and Doughboy will not be Main Match categories. Also, as specified in the Action Plan, there will be no “Open” category.

 

The Arizona Territorial Company of Rough Riders promises to continue our commitment to bring you the highest quality event and the “Best Cowboy and Wild Bunch Action Shooting Matches on the planet”. We thank you for, and greatly value, your continued support.

[wyliefoxEsquire]

I will be using my Wild Bunch Marlin 44 Mag.

Senior Tratitional

Power Factor 170

 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

15 minutes ago, wyliefoxEsquire said:

I will be using my Wild Bunch Marlin 44 Mag.

Senior Tratitional

Power Factor 170

 

oy...

 

Well...as long as YOU are having fun.

 

Phantom

[Badlands Bob #61228]

I'll be interested to see if the Wild Bunch rule changes will improve participation or has that well already been poisoned.  

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

3 minutes ago, Badlands Bob #61228 said:

I'll be interested to see if the Wild Bunch rule changes will improve participation or has that well already been poisoned.  

I would think that the attendance will not be too affected by the changes...just simply not enough time has passed to make any meaningful change. If you want to measure the affects, you have to allow for ample time to pass.

 

Phantom

[Tully Mars]

This will be my first time in not shooting WB at EOT or Winter Range. I suspect others will be making the same decision. The Arizona Territorial Company of Rough Riders do and outstanding job of putting on EOT and I wish them a successful shoot.

 

Tully 

 

 

[C.N. Double]

2 hours ago, Tully Mars said:

This will be my first time in not shooting WB at EOT or Winter Range. I suspect others will be making the same decision. The Arizona Territorial Company of Rough Riders do and outstanding job of putting on EOT and I wish them a successful shoot.

 

Tully 

 

 

Yep, I just cancelled my registration. The ATCoRR do fine work and have put on some of the finest matches I've attended since I started ~5 yrs ago. Good luck to all!

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Looks like the Don't Cowboy my Wild Bunch folks are taking their ball and going home.

 

Phantom 

[SHOOTIN FOX]

Is there a link to the action plan? 

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

15 minutes ago, SHOOTIN FOX said:

Is there a link to the action plan? 

 

Action Plan - sent by SASS in an e-mail time-stamped Wed 11/1/2023 3:01 PM.

[SHOOTIN FOX]

Thanks. I did not see the link .

[DeaconKC]

I'm glad to see SASS being open to make changes to [hopefully] grow the sport. Now we just need Lugers and Broomhandle Mausers allowed, as they are both Single Action guns available before WW1.

[Silvertip]

Red and I just cancelled , curious to see how it goes.

ST

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

51 minutes ago, Silvertip said:

Red and I just cancelled , curious to see how it goes.

ST

Why did you cancel?

 

Phantom

[Silvertip]

Well from reading the manual that Misty put out , and of course it is her business so she can do with it what she likes, but I’ve always have enjoyed the challenge.

I get the impression that the targets are going to get bigger and easier. Less shooting of the 1911, which is what I enjoy. I know she says it is selling entertainment,

which of course it is but it is shooting entertainment, again I like to  challenge myself. 

Maybe as things go along there could be big bore and small bore categories so as not to penalize the people who already have an investment in the equipment before the changes.

ST

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

35 minutes ago, Silvertip said:

Well from reading the manual that Misty put out , and of course it is her business so she can do with it what she likes, but I’ve always have enjoyed the challenge.

I get the impression that the targets are going to get bigger and easier. Less shooting of the 1911, which is what I enjoy. I know she says it is selling entertainment,

which of course it is but it is shooting entertainment, again I like to  challenge myself. 

Maybe as things go along there could be big bore and small bore categories so as not to penalize the people who already have an investment in the equipment before the changes.

ST

So if I'm reading this right, the competition will not present a challenge to you?

 

Phantom

[Badlands Bob #61228]

I would think that people who shot Wild Bunch in the past would want to at least try out the new rules and see how they work.  I wouldn't let a bunch of sour grapes keep me from making up my own mind.  I think the changes are for the better but I haven't shot any matches yet under the new rules.  

[Navy Davey]

54 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

So if I'm reading this right, the competition will not present a challenge to you?

 

Phantom

You would not want to compete against someone shooting .22s

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

3 minutes ago, Navy Davey said:

You would not want to compete against someone shooting .22s

Hmmmm...interesting response.

 

Who is shooting 22's?

 

Phantom

[Navy Davey]

I see a few of my competitors changing their minds on the EOT match. I would like them too reconsider let's shoot it and show them how it should be done. I will be there shooting full power 1911 and my full power 45 colt rifle. 

[Navy Davey]

Phantom one of the complaints is the use of a 38 rifle.  If next year SASS allows 22s in all categories, that might give them an advantage over someone shooting a larger caliber.

[Silvertip]

No Phantom competition is always a challenge, it’s just not the one I look for in Wild Bunch.

ST

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

27 minutes ago, Navy Davey said:

I see a few of my competitors changing their minds on the EOT match. I would like them too reconsider let's shoot it and show them how it should be done. I will be there shooting full power 1911 and my full power 45 colt rifle. 

You do know that the way you like WB is not working...right?

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

22 minutes ago, Navy Davey said:

Phantom one of the complaints is the use of a 38 rifle.  If next year SASS allows 22s in all categories, that might give them an advantage over someone shooting a larger caliber.

Actually, it won't. 

 

But shooting 22's will not happen (for categories that are in contention for overall), because scoring (spotting), is very difficult.

 

Phantom

 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

16 minutes ago, Silvertip said:

No Phantom competition is always a challenge, it’s just not the one I look for in Wild Bunch.

ST

But your vision of what WB should be is not working...it's a dead game as is.

 

Would you rather have it die then give up some of what you look for in WB?

 

Phantom

[Griff]

9 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

You do know that the way you like WB is not working...right?

Wild Bunch never worked for everyone... and it never will, just as CAS isn't for everyone, and never will.  IMO, trigger time is always fun.  Fast trigger time is challenging as is accurate triggering.  The balance is where the difference between winning and being an "also ran" lies.  But... if you're not willing to be an also ran, you'll never be a Winner.  Just about any shooting game is about compromise... All the ones I've participated have had an element I'm not thrilled about... but, taken as a whole... They're not worth quibbling over.  Bring back Rank Points.  

[Navy Davey]

13 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

But your vision of what WB should be is not working...it's a dead game as is.

 

Would you rather have it die then give up some of what you look for in WB?

 

Phantom

Than make a open category 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

1 minute ago, Navy Davey said:

Than make a open category 

So it's the 45 vs 38 that's your issue?

 

And you think that a 45 vs a 38 would be equivalent to a 38 shooting against a 22?

 

Phantom

[Tully Mars]

8 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

But your vision of what WB should be is not working...it's a dead game as is.

 

Would you rather have it die then give up some of what you look for in WB?

 

Phantom

 

Phantom, 

The proposed rules aren't what folks shooting WB in the past are looking for. You say it's a dead game, I disagree, it's just not a game for everyone. So what? Cowboy isn't a game for everyone either. 

 

I've traveled Arizona, Oregon, Nevada,  Idaho and here in California to shoot WB. Guess what? Folks like they way it is. Matches are attended well, maybe not to Cowboy levels, but decent levels. 

 

Those telling you it's dead, don't shoot or attend matches. The last two years of WB at EOT were the largest ever. However the original shooters numbers were capped, then increased as the match approached. Had they not have been capped, could attendance have been higher?

 

Will you now shoot WB? Support the game like your supporting it here on the wire? I doubt it, you'll just continue stirring the pot. 

 

Tully

 

 

 

[Crusty Knees]

I'm on the outside looking in.   So I don't have a dog in this fight.  I've only shot Wild Bunch locally a couple of times.  Since I don't have a .45 rifle, they kindly let me use what I have, which is a .38 Marlin.   I load to published data mid-point.  That seems to work well in all my cowboy guns.   I'm not understanding what the fuss is about.   My .38 certainly didn't give me any advantage.  Heck, the guys shooting their "big bore" rifles were just as blazing fast as they are in cowboy matches.

I have a '97 that I rarely shoot, but it was fun to stoke it fully.  However, I found out that the edges underneath, where you load the shells, are sharp enough to draw blood.  I'll need to stone those edges!

I shot Senior Modern and had fun.  I guess I'm not experienced enough to see what the problem is.   Does a .38 automatically give someone an advantage over someone shooting a larger caliber?  I don't see those other shooters having to deal with much recoil.  It's a pistol-caliber cartridge they're shooting after all.   I saw that video of Smokestack, (I've never met him), shooting .44-40s, 10 in less time than I can get off 3.   

 

Aurgh!  I've written more words here than I usually speak before my 2nd cup of coffee.   I'm just not seeing what the hubbub is about.  Shouldn't folks be seeing how the match goes before casting judgment?   Are that many people going to show up at the World Championship, with their .38, thinking that will give them the edge to outrun the masters who normally blow the doors off the rest of the field? 

 

My last thoughts are that dedicated WB shooters ought to be doing everything they can to participate and urge others to come along, showing SASS that it is worthwhile continuing to support WBAS.  Turning your back on it boycotting the game because there has been a rule change, and lowering participation numbers, might indeed show SASS that there is no point in continuing to support WBAS. 

 

Goom!  I need more coffee.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

10 hours ago, Tully Mars said:

 

Phantom, 

The proposed rules aren't what folks shooting WB in the past are looking for. You say it's a dead game, I disagree, it's just not a game for everyone. So what? Cowboy isn't a game for everyone either. 

 

I've traveled Arizona, Oregon, Nevada,  Idaho and here in California to shoot WB. Guess what? Folks like they way it is. Matches are attended well, maybe not to Cowboy levels, but decent levels. 

 

Those telling you it's dead, don't shoot or attend matches. The last two years of WB at EOT were the largest ever. However the original shooters numbers were capped, then increased as the match approached. Had they not have been capped, could attendance have been higher?

 

Will you now shoot WB? Support the game like your supporting it here on the wire? I doubt it, you'll just continue stirring the pot. 

 

Tully

 

 

 

Please...tell us by who's measure that WB has been a success. Remember, this isn't your little game to play with your buddies. It's owned by SASS and SASS invests THEIR dollars into it. I'm going to hopefully state the obvious here; SASS need a return on their investment that exceeds putting their money in a low yield bank account.

 

Look at the numbers...if changes don't happen, it's dead. You can still shoot your little buddy matches once WBAS is 6' under...that's you right. But WBAS will be dead without adjusting the product.

 

The last little dig from you is childish. I've shot WB...with a loaner rifle. I plan on shooting the Texas State Match. And it not that I "stir the pot", it's that I rock your little boat that you just can't seem to handle...can't respond in a productive manner...very non-productive...therefore...childish.

 

Phantom

[Ranger Dan]

I have skin in this game. I shoot WB monthly even though I could shoot CAS at the same mid-month match at our club. I also sign up for the WB side match at every big match we attend. With the new rules, has anything changed for me and my better half, no we will continue to shoot WB with our 44-40 rifles. We do welcome more shooters regardless of what caliber rifle they use. Those opposing these changes wanted WB to go in the opposite direction. Condition 1 carry and movement with loaded guns. More IPSIC IDPA style shooting. Although I could go either direction as a shooter, most WB shooters I have shot with would not do well in that environment. Going in that direction would have attracted some of those shooters to try WB, but I don't see them really sticking with it. They shoot factory ammo. They are not reloaders and would balk at the requirement of lead only bullets. Which would have the advocates for this style of shooting eventually wanting plated or jacketed ammo allowed. I just don't see that direction being good for the game of WBAS. I fully support the direction SASS is going with these changes. Gents, if you want to quit in protest, more power to ya, I don't see it as productive.

[Medicine Creek Johnny]

I fail to understand why the rifle caliber is such a big issue.  If you want you can still shoot your 45.  I’ve seen shooter hat can run a 45 much faster than a 38.  It still comes down to stage design.  If you set your match so that even he best shooters can’t shoot it clean the bottom half of your shooters will be frustrated.  It seems as though there’s always been a battle for control in WB.  I don’t think taking your toys and going home will change that

just he view from my saddle

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

 "They shoot factory ammo. They are not reloaders and would balk at the requirement of lead only bullets." 

 

USPSA has in recent years added divisions where 9mm shooters (minor scoring only) compete at no disadvantage to major shooters. A lot of newer shooters like usually being able to  buy factory ammo at a decent price. But the 40 and 45 shooters are a high percentage of reloaders. Most of them now use the hitek coated bullets except in Open where they use compensators. They use jacketed bullets.

[Frederick Jackson Turner]

I understand the desire to open the game up to as many as possible.  Like many others, I ran matches for years with an "open" class, allowing any SASS legal rifle and shotgun.  A few ultimately made the move to WB, but I don't recall more than 3 taking advantage of the category.

 

In addition to the record turnout at EoT last year, at the European Championships this year, there were 130 WB shooters out of a capped 360 total participants.  That's almost 40% participation, in an environment where securing the needed additional firearms is REALLY difficult.  So, when it is watered, WB ain't dead.

 

It is disingenuous to say you can run a power factored .45 rifle the same speed as a cowboy loaded .38.  There may be a few freaks who can, but I surely can't.  I've tried it.

 

Shooters who have purchased firearms at significant cost, procured components, developed loads, and invested in the game have a right to feel a bit stiffed, don't you think?  Imagine the outrage if Classic Cowboy, or B Western became "Run What Ya Brung."  I don't think either of those have the numbers combined at Winter Trail or End of Range, or whatever they're calling it, now, that WB demonstrated.

 

I get that it is a game, and it belongs to SASS.  Whether or not the changes will swell the ranks is yet to be seen. But don't belittle those who sweated and invested to make it what is is, so far.

 

Cheers,

FJT