Action open in cart

[Presidio]

Okay.  Okay.  I know the rule.  And mind you, I abide by this rule whole-heartedly.

 

But say if there's inclement weather and you have your long guns covered in a sheath of some sort or another, or you have your spares secured in the cart. 

 

Can the actions be closed on a lever rifle or double barrel (or even a '87 or '97) if the cover can't facilitate an open action position while they are secured in the cart only.  

 

Walking to and from tables is strictly action open irregardless.

 

Just something that manages to creep into my mind in the wee hours of the morning.

[Flying W Ramrod]

Call up the Shooters Handbook and ROI Manual.

Do a .pdf search on "action open", "transport", "cart".

You'll find there is NO SASS rule regarding actions open in your cart, only on the line.

If someone jumps you for having action closed and the long gun covered, ask them to show you the rule.

 

Just pointed out to me, Page 17 of the SHB states "Long guns shall have their actions open with chambers and magazines empty and muzzles pointed in a safe direction when transported at a match."

I didn't search with "actions" only "action open". Adobe have a syntax problem? maybe.

[Kid Rich]

That may be a local or club rule. I have seen it in several clubs.

kR

[Presidio]

Kinda what I figured too.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

I have never seen a "Rule" that states the Actions must be "Open" when rolling around inna Kart.  Now, when you take the gun out of the Kart and carry it to the Loading Table, Actions open and Empty be Du Rigger.  Most folks open the actions in the Kart anyway just as a matter of "habit" me thinks

[Flying W Ramrod]

21 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

I have never seen a "Rule" that states the Actions must be "Open" when rolling around inna Kart.  Now, when you take the gun out of the Kart and carry it to the Loading Table, Actions open and Empty be Du Rigger.  Most folks open the actions in the Kart anyway just as a matter of "habit" me thinks

As I did, look on Page 17 of the Shooters Handbook. Under 170 Rule, bullet point 2.

[Eyesa Horg]

I tend to close my SxS in the cart from my camper to the range and again for the trip back. Keeps it from swinging like a rag doll wearing the blue off. I keep it open during the stages. Marlin is always open. If raining or bad dust, I will close the SxS to put a cover over it however.

[John Kloehr]

15 minutes ago, Flying W Ramrod said:

As I did, look on Page 17 of the Shooters Handbook. Under 170 Rule, bullet point 2.

I did too,...

 

No definition of "transport" anywhere in the rule book.

 

But this is bullet 2 in the 170 rule, and the rule is always in effect. So plain English seems to apply. Common sense still suggests a bagged gun is safe for transport (in a cart).

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Sorry.  Don't see where the reference to the 170 rule addresses it.  At least not specifically.  Normally, anyway, I usually put my long guns back inna kart the same way they come offa the unloading table.  Actions open and the gun empty.  

 

Iffin you wanna go a little crazy, just watch any International Skeet Competition.  

[Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667]

It was my understanding that a long gun in a MOVING cart was being “transported” within the meaning of the rule.

 

I have also read that it was left to local clubs whether to recognize an exception for long guns that are sleeved, cased or in a closed compartment in a cart.

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

18 hours ago, Flying W Ramrod said:

As I did, look on Page 17 of the Shooters Handbook. Under 170 Rule, bullet point 2.

And before it says transported, there is "and muzzles pointed in a safe direction..." How many times do you think we (me included) do NOT have muzzles pointed in a safe direction as we tip our carts back and move from stage to stage, sweeping ourselves and who knows who else? Just a thought on "transporting".

[Presidio]

Thinking I done pulled the tigers tail once too often here.

 

But, just one more tug here...

 

"Presidio playing at being Crocodile Hunter."

[Flying W Ramrod]

5 hours ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

And before it says transported, there is "and muzzles pointed in a safe direction..." How many times do you think we (me included) do NOT have muzzles pointed in a safe direction as we tip our carts back and move from stage to stage, sweeping ourselves and who knows who else? Just a thought on "transporting".

You can't sweep yourself.

[Beartrap SASS#57175]

1 hour ago, Flying W Ramrod said:

You can't sweep yourself.

So, what should we call the act when that shotgun in the cart gets pointed at our face as we tip the cart back?

[John Kloehr]

25 minutes ago, Beartrap SASS#57175 said:

So, what should we call the act when that shotgun in the cart gets pointed at our face as we tip the cart back?

Natural selection.

[Flying W Ramrod]

51 minutes ago, Beartrap SASS#57175 said:

So, what should we call the act when that shotgun in the cart gets pointed at our face as we tip the cart back?

You can not sweep yourself. Otherwise everyone who has an upright style cart would be MDQ'd at the second stage.
Search the SHB for Sweep, it refers to "another" not "yourself".

Also, vertical staging of long guns automatically induce self sweeping.

 

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

You are sweeping yourself. You are just not penalized for it.

[High Spade Mikey Wilson]

My cart was purchased from a pard who used an 1897, and doesn't accomodate my SxS shotgun with the action open. Just not enough room. I got two pieces of dow rod, put one in each barrel, and marked them at the muzzle. Then I put snap caps in and repeated the marking. Between the marks I painted it red. As long as red doesn't show it's unloaded. Been using that method for about 10 years now and no one has ever complained to me about the action being closed on my SxS shotgun.

[Mister Badly]

My cart has 4 wheels. No self sweeping.

[Captain Bill Burt]

On 9/6/2023 at 6:28 PM, John Kloehr said:

I did too,...

 

No definition of "transport" anywhere in the rule book.

 

But this is bullet 2 in the 170 rule, and the rule is always in effect. So plain English seems to apply. Common sense still suggests a bagged gun is safe for transport (in a cart).

The 170 isn't always in effect, so I don't think that's a strong example to support the contention that the 'transport' rule is always in effect.

 

Before you quote the book, think for a moment.  You're at the loading table, the loading table is perpendicular to the firing line.  You place your guns on the loading table pointed at the side berm.  This is the case in virtually every local match I attend and no one gets called for a 170 violation.

[John Kloehr]

5 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

The 170 isn't always in effect, so I don't think that's a strong example to support the contention that the 'transport' rule is always in effect.

 

Before you quote the book, think for a moment.  You're at the loading table, the loading table is perpendicular to the firing line.  You place your guns on the loading table pointed at the side berm.  This is the case in virtually every local match I attend and no one gets called for a 170 violation.

I did make a mental note of this at my first match as a guest, the LTO and ULTO were definitely in the 170. And placing long guns vertically in the cart is also puts everyone at a match in the 170.

 

While none of these are documented as exceptions, I also note one obvious example exception in the rules right after the 170 section.

 

None of these exceptions change the rule always being in effect.

 

One question which seems to be bubbling up is if alternatives to an open actions might be acceptable. I like the sticks down the barrel idea. Simple. Obvious. Clearly safe. At least as long as they are the right sticks for that barrel length. I also would not object to chamber flags as an alternative to open actions where they would work, it just is not documented. I would not object, but I am also not requesting any official change. As a set, the safety rules do work for this sport. Even further, some of the rules need to be unique to this sport due to the nature of our firearms.

[Griff]

As a former skeet league shooter, I find most SASS shooters to be rather "nervous nellies".  The oft repeated "have you ever been to a skeet match?"  Like doing so is taking your life in your hands, saddens me.  If you have, you know they are cold ranges also, the oft cited examples of how you've seen shotguns cavalierly carried smacks of a certain level of misunderstanding.  I've carried my double gun broken open over my shoulder, over my forearm, even resting the muzzles of my open shotgun on the toe of my shoe/boot.  In fact, they even sell a "tab" that laces into your lace up shoe to provide extra protection to your foot for so resting.  What is generally omitted, (an omission is danged near the same as a lie)... is the fact that one can actually SEE into the chambers of said shotguns, confirming for oneself that ones fellow shooters are carried an EMPTY shotgun.   If you are concerned about the muzzles of an obviously open & empty double gun pointed in your direction... simply move to one side or the other... if I may be so blunt.   And, if you're on a squad of skeet shooters making their way around the field, it's pretty easy to keep yourself out of the apparent scary zone around the muzzles.  Similar rules concerning muzzle control and limits are also observed during the actual firing of guns.  The basic concept of self responsibility applies... I am responsible for being safe, responsible for my own safety, and that of folks around me... just as they are likewise responsible for their own safety and that of others in their presence.  Think it's any different at a SASS match?  Just because the rules differ, doesn't make one safer at either event.  We're all relying on the responsibility of everyone present to demonstrate safe gun handling... however that may be defined.  

 

At smaller ranges where I use my upright guncart, my shotgun can also easily close when tilted and moved over uneven, bumpy ground.  If my closed shotgun, tilted in my cart, pointed at my chest causes you to pucker up in fear... I wonder how you deal with the very real hazards on the highway to and from the match.   A FAR MORE LIKELY scene of bodily injury.  

[Texas Maverick]

9 hours ago, Griff said:

As a former skeet league shooter, I find most SASS shooters to be rather "nervous nellies".  The oft repeated "have you ever been to a skeet match?"  Like doing so is taking your life in your hands, saddens me.  If you have, you know they are cold ranges also, the oft cited examples of how you've seen shotguns cavalierly carried smacks of a certain level of misunderstanding.  I've carried my double gun broken open over my shoulder, over my forearm, even resting the muzzles of my open shotgun on the toe of my shoe/boot.  In fact, they even sell a "tab" that laces into your lace up shoe to provide extra protection to your foot for so resting.  What is generally omitted, (an omission is danged near the same as a lie)... is the fact that one can actually SEE into the chambers of said shotguns, confirming for oneself that ones fellow shooters are carried an EMPTY shotgun.   If you are concerned about the muzzles of an obviously open & empty double gun pointed in your direction... simply move to one side or the other... if I may be so blunt.   And, if you're on a squad of skeet shooters making their way around the field, it's pretty easy to keep yourself out of the apparent scary zone around the muzzles.  Similar rules concerning muzzle control and limits are also observed during the actual firing of guns.  The basic concept of self responsibility applies... I am responsible for being safe, responsible for my own safety, and that of folks around me... just as they are likewise responsible for their own safety and that of others in their presence.  Think it's any different at a SASS match?  Just because the rules differ, doesn't make one safer at either event.  We're all relying on the responsibility of everyone present to demonstrate safe gun handling... however that may be defined.  

 

At smaller ranges where I use my upright guncart, my shotgun can also easily close when tilted and moved over uneven, bumpy ground.  If my closed shotgun, tilted in my cart, pointed at my chest causes you to pucker up in fear... I wonder how you deal with the very real hazards on the highway to and from the match.   A FAR MORE LIKELY scene of bodily injury.  

Very well said, I too shot Trap, Skeet and Sporting Clays as well as Field Trials and bird hunting and this is how we carried our shotguns as well. It wasn't until I came into the SASS game that I was told I had to carry my guns with the muzzle pointing up instead of down. Even when at the police department matches I attended we didn't have muzzles up. I have adjusted to this practice and am trying to make sure my muzzle is never pointed at anyone at any time since I have seen how paranoid some shooters are about the muzzle direction. Different strokes for different folks at different venues. 

 

TM

[Ya Big Tree]

I was always told that any long gun in a cart not in a case or dust cover must have the action open.

Also any long gun with the action closed that's in a case or in a dust cover is considered safe.

 

Maybe PWB can shed some light on the subject.

[Griff]

7 hours ago, Ya Big Tree said:

Maybe PWB can shed some light on the subject.

Maybe not as it's not in the rule book except for the "transport" comment.  Whether that includes the gun cart on just transport by hand from cart to loading table/unloading table to cart is subject to interpretation.  Many clubs have a local rule covering this.  Hence we haven't seen PWB's input to date.  He'll probably weigh in sooner or later.  Like High Spade, my hand powered cart was made by a '97 user and gifted to me over 20 years ago (3rd owner), and my shotgun (who wants to shoot a '97 anyway... not legal in Frontiersman), often will close as it's wheeled around the range... Never been remarked on.  In my powered cart, I have two spots where a double can sit open... 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

If one wants to keep their SxS open, you can take a piece of heavy insulated wire or cable, RG8 Coax cable for example, or anything really thick like 1/2".  A six inch piece, folded and the ends inserted into the chambers, will stay in place and not allow the action to close.  I used to do this when I had the shotgun muzzle down in a scabbard, kept it from closing.

[John Kloehr]

20 hours ago, Griff said:

... if I may be so blunt. 

You may. Well, you are. And I cancelled this post twice, so here I am a 3rd time.

 

Skeet has a long and venerable history and established traditions. By comparison, modern safety standards do not have either of these. At least not to the same scope and scale.

 

I completely understand that shotgun broken open over your shoulder is not loaded. Even if there were shells in the chambers, they are not going to fire. So when we are having a casual conversation and you sweep my chest, you are not going to blow my lungs out. It won't happen, it can't happen. I am not one of the nervous nellies you refer to, at least I do not think I am.

 

I do recognize the best standard today is to "Always treat every firearm as if it is loaded.

 

To be just as blunt as you are, you allow for a standard to "treat a firearm as if it is not loaded."

 

And then you put the onus on me to move aside?... No, don't point it at me in the first place!

 

Now this is for arms held in hand, let's get back to the cart. Is the standard when transporting (does the definition of transporting even include when in the cart?) to always treat the firearm as if it is loaded or is the standard to treat it as if it is not loaded? It just came from the ULT. Well, unless it is the first stage of the day, then it did not come from the ULT.

 

I recall reading a ruling if rounds are found in firearms at the first stage of the day, it is a "no call," (this may have been revolver-specific). There is a penalty attached to rounds found in a firearm at the LT after the first stage. I can not find the ruling at the moment. But the existence of any such rule for any firearm recognizes the possibility of a loaded firearm not in the course of fire.

 

So if your gun has the acton closed in the cart, and you lift to out to go to the LT, and you open it to comply with the rules, please treat it as if it is loaded. Don't treat it as if it is not loaded. It does not matter if it is or is not loaded, it only matters how you treat it. Always.

 

And while you said skeet, I enjoy clays. And I see the same practices in this update sport. I'd still shoot with you, I'm really not a nervous nellie.

[Griff]

Thank you John for such a well-stated and reasoned response.  While my post was pretty much from my point of view, I also recognize that I also have the responsibility that my bbls don't sweep anyone, not necessarily that you (universal you, not specific), have to move, however, if you walk up to me, I would expect that a reasonable person would stay out of line with my bbls. 

 

As for the 1st stage exemption...  I'm fairly sure that the only "no call" on the first stage is in relation to empties found in a revolver.  I.e.:  usually happens after the first day of a multi-day match.  If you've made it to the loading table with live rounds, you've also broken the "cold range" rule in place. 

Quote

- All firearms will remain unloaded except while under direct observation of a designated person on the firing line or in the designated loading and unloading areas.

This may also be more emphasized in Range specific rules.  

[Dilli GaHoot Galoot]

23 hours ago, Griff said:

I find most SASS shooters to be rather "nervous nellies". 

 

My personal observation is limited to 3 or 4 ranges in AZ and a couple in OR, but in my experience the bigger issue is that skeet shooters (and at many ranges the IDPA & USPSA shooters) are treated differently than SASS shooters.   Again, "this was just me" but I was DQ'd from a  match after having a bolt action rifle jam because with the magazine out, the bolt held back and the rifle pointed straight down I turned to advise the RO that I wanted to step off the line and I broke the 180* line and pointed a firearm at a body part (my own foot)  I stuck around for bit to pull targets and BS with friends, but on the way out I drove past the skeet range where most if not all of the folks there were violating the very rules I was DQ'd for

 

To be clear, my issue isn't with skeet shooters "violating" basic safety rules, my issue is that some shooters are held to a different standard for reasons I have opinions on, but no proof of. 

[Captain Bill Burt]

17 hours ago, VinnieBoomBah said:

 

My personal observation is limited to 3 or 4 ranges in AZ and a couple in OR, but in my experience the bigger issue is that skeet shooters (and at many ranges the IDPA & USPSA shooters) are treated differently than SASS shooters.   Again, "this was just me" but I was DQ'd from a  match after having a bolt action rifle jam because with the magazine out, the bolt held back and the rifle pointed straight down I turned to advise the RO that I wanted to step off the line and I broke the 180* line and pointed a firearm at a body part (my own foot)  I stuck around for bit to pull targets and BS with friends, but on the way out I drove past the skeet range where most if not all of the folks there were violating the very rules I was DQ'd for

 

To be clear, my issue isn't with skeet shooters "violating" basic safety rules, my issue is that some shooters are held to a different standard for reasons I have opinions on, but no proof of. 

What kind of bolt action rifle were you shooting at a SASS match?

[Dilli GaHoot Galoot]

1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

What kind of bolt action rifle were you shooting at a SASS match?

Sorry for the confusion, it wasn't a SASS match, it was a Lee Enfield at a  Classic Battle Rifle match.  

And to reiterate, I have no (major) issue with how the trap and skeet shooters handle their shotguns, it was just an example of how SASS shooters aren't necessarily "nervous nellies" more how rules very across ranges 

[John Kloehr]

I don't think the shooters are treated differently, it is a different game.

 

The rules in each sport are different.

 

In each sport, one can not consider any rule in isolation; the safety rules in each sport function together as a set (or system).

 

The sport I shot in yesterday had shooting while moving (live ammo under cocked hammer). In two of the stages, failure to move while shooting earned a P. In SASS, moving while shooting is a DQ. And I did get a P on my first stage for not moving while shooting dammit! It has been at least 6 months, if not over a year since I shot in that sport.

 

The majority of the rules in that sport are the same as in SASS, some are different. They function as a set. And that set serves as a safety wrapper. Some of the rules in that sport are not present in SASS. Instead, we have a "Basketball" traveling rule.

 

Almost all sports have some form of a 180 rule, in SASS it is a 170 rule.

 

And it sounds like you broke the 180 rule in the sport you shot in. Their game, their rules. Does not matter what happens on the Skeet range or the SASS range, You were at a Classic Battle Rifle match. And I have no idea what the rules for that actually are.

 

If you otherwise enjoyed the competition and the people, I suggest learning the rules and go have fun. Same for SASS, do your best to learn the rules, be safe, enjoy the people, and the sport. And don't let a penalty without damage or actual harm ruin your day.

 

What we are discussing here is SASS requirements for keeping actions on long guns open if they are in a cart. And if we can close the action if we cover (bag) the gun. Also if flags (or even sticks) might compensate for possible safety questions as a result of doing so, assuming any compensation is needed. I think I have accurately captured the question and discussion so far.

 

While Skeet/Clays sports also have an action open rule, we can not simply compare it to SASS, there are other rules and protocols beyond this one rule in both sports. For the SASS cart long gun open action question when covering/bagging, we need to consider it in the context of all the other SASS rules.

 

That said, I am on record above with no objection to flags.