Frontiersman / Why Just 209 Primers?

[Chili Pepper Pete 11917]

I was following a thread on here about the legalization of 209 primers for pistols in Frontiersman,  I disagree completely that by using 209s your basically turning a cap gun into a cartridge revolver.  With tuned percussion pistols you don't have any more FTF than a cartridge gun.  In the last 8 years I've maybe had 4 or 5 in a 100 plus matches.  The problem isn't the caps,  its people are lackadaisical about their setup.  Every competitive frontiersman spend hours making sure their pistols work consistently,  Its the most important part of the category and if you don't do it correctly,  well, you get what you get.  In my mind I am not sure how 209s are going to dramatically tilt the frontiersman world off its axis. They are harder to set off than Pistol primers and they are too hot for our intended use.  do they work, sure, are they ultra competitive,  I don't think so.   Next, I question the availability of good caps in the future.  Is Remington going to make caps in any quantity going forward,  who knows,  its been years since they have been available at any reasonable cost,  CCIs tend to be hit or miss on quality and RWS don't fit well on most nipples.  So,   what's the future look like for Frontiersman and Plainsman?

This 209 conversion should be able to be modified for other pistols other than ROAs,  There may need to be some rule changes required for this to happen but why wouldn't it be worth it to save an original category?   I also think that it is short sighted to limit it to just 209 shotgun primers,  It should be all primers,  Just because a product already exists for 209s maybe there is a better alternative if someone would make one that worked with regular pistol primers.  Just some thoughts from someone who actually shoots the category and has a little bit of experience in doing so.  

 

Best regards

 

Chili

[Blackwater 53393]

Maybe we should just, “Leave Frontiersman Alone!!”!!

[Chili Pepper Pete 11917]

Sure,  But I'd really like to hear why you say that.  Could you please explain why or how this is going to change the integrity of the category?  

[Barry Sloe]

When I read the other post I thought that the bottom line was that 209s might be allowed in the UK because caps were not available. 

And I believe it was another post that PWB quoted the Frontiersman requirement of caps/capping vs primers. 209s are primers and therefore not allowed in Frontiersman (at least on this side of the pond).

No changes to the Frontiersman category that I can see. 

 

BS

 

[Blackwater 53393]

I don’t have any problem with the modification itself!  If you want to have this done to your gun, by all means, go for it!

 

BUT, Frontiersman is a CAP AND BALL category, set aside for those that wish to compete with guns from that period when they were prevalent or replicas of those guns.

 

While the Old Army revolver is allowed, (even if many participants in the category take exception to them) the cap and ball versions of the 1873 Colt and 1875 Remington are not allowed, (and probably shouldn’t be) because they don’t truly fit the category.

 

For much the same reason, these modified revolvers should be excluded from the Frontiersman category.  
 

And that’s NOT just my personal opinion!!

[Chili Pepper Pete 11917]

Barry,  I guess I'm just looking down the road at where this category ends up.  I have shot Frontiersman almost exclusively since 2003 so I'm very loyal and dedicated to the cause here.  The problem I see is that the cap shortage is very real.  For component manufacturers caps are a niche market at best.  I have no inside information on this but it is logical that the market for percussion caps production is not a priority for these companies so our wait may be long and they may never come back.  Thats it.

It just seems that maybe we should be looking for an alternative.  

 

Best regards,

 

Chili

 

[Tyrel Cody]

I don't have a horse in this race, yet, having only done it a handful of matches; but I very well may do it full time next year. I agree with the sentiment of "Leave Frontiersman Alone!"; but feel we should stop and think about that.

 

Would it really be a lot different by using large pistol primers at the loading table? Those may or may not stay in a primer pocket any better than a cap does on a nipple; there wouldn't be a recoil shield for them to bounce off of.  Heck, most of us have modded our guns enough anyway that caps falling off isn't a huge deal. 

[Captain Bill Burt]

I've only shot Frontiersman twice now. It was fun.  I read the descriptions of the modification to take 209s.  Seemed like it could take quite a bit of work on your pistols, and if done incorrectly you could have a problem.  Having said that CPP correctly pointed out that caps may go away and something like this modification could become the only option.

[Tequila Shooter]

My thought: using a primer (any size) and still being considered as the spirit of Frontiersman would have to depend on more than just the use of primers.  I think if the primer has to be placed on a modified nipple and the gun still has to be charged then the spirit of the category would be preserved.  Cap shortages aren’t going away anytime soon, as CPP said it’s a niche market.  If a cap can come off a nipple then a primer can too.  The method of ignition is just that and not be all and end all of the Frontiersman spirit. 

Now let’s load some warthog loads and make some smoke. 

 

P.S. @Griff on a locked post you said you go slow and have a clean match, C’Mon man, you know BP shooters never have a “clean” match we have matches with no misses or P’s 

[Stump Water]

1 hour ago, Chili Pepper Pete 11917 said:

I have no inside information on this but it is logical that the market for percussion caps production is not a priority for these companies so our wait may be long and they may never come back.  Thats it.

 

A very real concern.  Outside of CAS there is pretty much ZERO demand for percussion caps.  

 

Except maybe that one guy still hunting with a TC Hawken.

[Chickasaw Bill SASS #70001]

well I reckon , I be that one guy 

 

  CB 

[Barry Sloe]

2 hours ago, Chili Pepper Pete 11917 said:

It just seems that maybe we should be looking for an alternative.  

 

Best regards,

 

Chili

 

I have heard that RWS is supposed to start production, but the cost will be close to double.  I'm able to use either Remington or CCI #11s. I pick them up whenever I find them. 

If costs go too high or cap supply dries up, I guess I'll be going back to FC Duelist. 

Right now I'm having fun with my ROAs and I have a pair of Pietta '58 Remingtons that I haven't shot yet. 

Primers started showing up again, so I'll cross my fingers that caps will be on the shelves also. 

 

BS

[Cholla]

53 minutes ago, Stump Water said:

 

A very real concern.  Outside of CAS there is pretty much ZERO demand for percussion caps.  

 

Except maybe that one guy still hunting with a TC Hawken.

I think you are forgetting the tens of thousands of folks that shoot BP guns at matches every month and travel to attend rendezvous around the US. The NMLRA is very much alive and holds its annual spring shoot every year in Friendship, IN. 

 

https://www.nmlra.org/

 

[Eyesa Horg]

54 minutes ago, Stump Water said:

 

A very real concern.  Outside of CAS there is pretty much ZERO demand for percussion caps.  

 

Except maybe that one guy still hunting with a TC Hawken.

I'd be one of them there Hawken guys! Shoot about 18 shots every Wednesday. Just hit 3500 out of my Traditions Hawken yesterday.

[Stump Water]

29 minutes ago, Cholla said:

I think you are forgetting the tens of thousands of folks that shoot BP guns at matches every month and travel to attend rendezvous around the US. The NMLRA is very much alive and holds its annual spring shoot every year in Friendship, IN. 

 

https://www.nmlra.org/

 

 

Tens of thousands?  Every month?

 

Like the "tens of thousands" of people that shoot CAS every month that don't even make a blip on the radar when it comes to the decisions that the industry giants make?

 

I could not find a list of match results for the "nationals" at the NMRLA site, so I really have no idea what a "national" event even looks like... other than it seems to take place over ten days.

[Griff]

While a primer is essentially a cap w/an anvil inside... It is not fragible like a cap.  The caps is designed to split apart & release its hold on the nipple.  However, this very fragility of the cap presents one of the challenges in shooting cap & ball.   One we try to control and minimize,   but it is still present.  With a primer, any size, that fragiulity is gone.  And, yes, IMO, the use of a primer violates the spirit of Frontiersman.  It's not just another category for an opportunity to buckle.  IMO, if you want to use primers & BP, enter Frontier Cartridge.

 

When I started shooting BP in this game, (1986) the Black Powder category required cap & ball revolvers.  The ROA was legal, but only in the Modern category.  ROAs were only available with adjustable sights,  The a few guys asked if they welded up the backstrap and made the fixed, would they be legal?  In 1989 the BP category was replaced by Frontier Cartridge.  

 

I've shot that category w/my 1851s when I wanted to shoot two-handed.  

 

The way I understand it, the Mod was requested by Brits who want to mod their ROAs by sleeving the chambers & use smokeless along with cups for 209 primers as they're not allowed cartridge handguns.  All good so far... but, the approval reads that ROAs converted to use 209s is SASS legal.  Note... the asking if that was true was from Nevada, not the UK!  

 

RWS #11 caps are sized virtually identical to CCI #11s and are available from several reputable sources.  Lets not borrow trouble from the future.  No need to be Chicken Little and the sky is falling.  Write to your former suppliers (Midway etal) and ask why they're not buggin' Remington for product!

 

My question is the approval wording an accidental failure to see the unintended consequences, or another beat on the snare drum advancing the death march of the organization that once touted "no external modifiications."

4 minutes ago, Cholla said:

I think you are forgetting the tens of thousands of folks that shoot BP guns at matches every month and travel to attend rendezvous around the US. The NMLRA is very much alive and holds its annual spring shoot every year in Friendship, IN. 

https://www.nmlra.org/

Not to mention the thousands of NSSA reenactors across the country.

[Cholla]

35 minutes ago, Stump Water said:

 

Tens of thousands?  Every month?

 

Like the "tens of thousands" of people that shoot CAS every month that don't even make a blip on the radar when it comes to the decisions that the industry giants make?

 

I could not find a list of match results for the "nationals" at the NMRLA site, so I really have no idea what a "national" event even looks like... other than it seems to take place over ten days.

Here are a few in North Carolina. The NMLRA is just one organization of several.

 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

Got an email from Taylors saying they have RWS caps.

[Cemetery]

I think more people will develop kits to DIY caps outta soda cans.

 

 

[Long Gulch, SASS #53035]

Looks like RWS #11 caps are becoming more available. I just did a bit of a survey online and out of seven sites six had them in stock.  Some sites had limits of 2 to 5 tins of 250 each tin. Two sites included shipping. 

 The last time I bought caps I paid just under $300 for 5,000. One place I surveyed today was $820 per 5k, pushing 3 times the previous cost. No matter the reason, inflation happens.

Depends how much one chooses to spend to play one's category of choice.  

I have been working on the home made caps but have not yet perfected it to my own satisfaction.  I believe that cup material and thickness may be a key factor.  At present I find that copper sheet at .005 works somewhat okay for me.

What's the point? Meh. I dunno. What I do know is that I like shooting FCD  but I get the best smiles from shooting Frontiersman!

 

Watchhyer Topknot,

Long Gulch 

[Michigan Slim]

19 hours ago, Chickasaw Bill SASS #70001 said:

well I reckon , I be that one guy 

 

  CB 

I'm 2. My kids are 3-4.

[Eyesa Horg]

Walmart here just had CCI #11s for $5.62 per tin. That works out obviously to $56.20/ 1000. I missed them, sold out when I got there, but my neighbor got 500 and informed me! They go quick. I really prefer Remington as the quality of the CCIs seems to be bad. I posted a pic a while back of some I got in the fall for $6.99 and about 50% + were made with the compound all on one side of the cup or empty. They work ok on my Hawken, but don't seat far enough to use on my 1860's the ones that were filled right work ok though.

[Cemetery]

20 hours ago, Long Gulch, SASS #53035 said:

I have been working on the home made caps but have not yet perfected it to my own satisfaction.  I believe that cup material and thickness may be a key factor.  At present I find that copper sheet at .005 works somewhat okay for me.

 

 

What are the obstacles of making your own caps?

 

Mixing and applying the chemicals to the cap?  Or finding thin enough metal to work as we need it to?

 

I am thinking of going down this road myself.

[Griff]

There are a couple of cap makers on the market.  One IIRC is called 22reloader (Google it).  The biggest obstacle I see is that they don't work in a traditional capper.  Tho' it was pointed out to me that the 3D printed "Star" cappers handle them just fine.  (No first hand experience on my part, just passing along what I was told).  Over on the Muzzleloading Forum under the Handguns section there are a couple of threads dealing with them.  Usually in the midst of another thread when someone laments the lack of caps.  Myself, I'm still appreciative of a few caps in storage and the appearance of both RWS & CCI in the market place... I'm hoping that shortly Remington will see the error of their ways and spend a few days making a couple of million and getting them back in the market place.  Several strategic emails might hasten that process... (the MORE the better)! 

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

As an aside.  The Brits have EXTREMELY restrictive gun laws.  A few years back there was a Brit Cowboy shooter who modified his Cap Guns to use Pistol Primers.  Worked a treat.  I've forgotten his alias though.  Memory of a Gnat.

 

Whoops!!  Just remembered!!  He were "Paladin UK" 

[Burt Blade, #25657]

The 209 decision is not to modify Frontiersman. It is to get around authorities saying "No, you may not have proper cartridge handguns."

 

The converting process includes proofing the revolver for smokeless. Thus the chamber sleeve to reduce volume.

 

Such guns are for Cowboy, Wrangler, 49er, etc.

 

Note also that Ruger quit making the base gun, the Old Army. I suspect this demise is directly related to folks cartridge-converting them. I believe lawyers waved off further production due to the risk of stupid suits.

 

Avoiding writing and publishing a sequel to Rugers "barrel novella" has a certain esthetic appeal.