Eyesa Horg Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 Ellie was finally able to shoot again after 2 years,yay. After 9 stages she just couldn't do any more shot gun. Her bad shoulder got real sore. She used to like SG and we are shooting 14gr. Clay-Dot under 7/8oz. #8, which has been plenty light for her. Wondering if there is any issue shooting BP out of her CB model 97? They were noticably better out of my SxS when my shoulder hurt. I load them with 3.1 cc of 3F with 1oz. of #8. I'm still trying to convince her to give them a try! What's your thoughts, as we have a 10 stage State match coming up in a few weeks ? Thanks in advance, EH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boulder Canyon Bob# 32052L Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 Can't answer the 97 question, but I and several shooters I know use around 12 gr of Clay Dot with the same wads and it is very light recoiling and takes down the knockdowns. I use a #21 MEC bushing. Yeah, that's what I meant! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cypress Sun Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 Don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eyesa Horg Posted July 31, 2023 Author Share Posted July 31, 2023 7 minutes ago, Cypress Sun said: Don't. I kinda expected so as I've never seen anybody do it! Is there a particular reason? Guessing that the fouling gets to places it isn't easy to clean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 7 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said: I kinda expected so as I've never seen anybody do it! Is there a particular reason? Guessing that the fouling gets to places it isn't easy to clean. You'll have to do a lot of cleaning after every match if you shoot BP in a 97. I shoot a lot of it in my 87 and even with hot loads (4 cc of Goex and an ounce of shot) I still get a lot of BP fouling in the action. This is the load I used for my wife. Less felt recoil than the AA LNLR and it still took down every KD we came across. Felt recoil is similar to my APP loads. ( 7/8 oz shot and 35 grains by weight of 3F APP. ) Remington STS, Nitro or Gun Club hull In order of preference, Remington, Chedite, or Winchester 209 primer. ( You can use Federal primers but they are hotter and will have more felt recoil.) Claybuster CB0175-12 wad. (You can use the CB0178-12 wad but you will need to add a packing peanut for filler.) 3/4 ounce of shot 13 grains of 700X. I never chronographed these loads but by my math they are between 900 and 980 fps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene, SASS # 27489 Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 I, too, have wondered what sort of cleaning would be required to shoot real BP in a '97. Not because of recoil, just "because" Cody King used to shoot BP in his '97 regularly at the Tejas Caballeros: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 When the 97 came out smokeless was still a rarity. Millions of BP rounds have been fired from them. BP loadings were cheaper and quite common up to the 1930s. Try it and see. If you find cleaning to be a problem stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three Foot Johnson Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 2 hours ago, Boulder Canyon Bob# 32052L said: Can't answer the 97 question, but I and several shooters I know use around 12 oz of Clay Dot with the same wads and it is very light recoiling and takes down the knockdowns. I use a #21 MEC bushing. You use three quarters of a pound of Clay Dot in a 12g shell? Those must be 36 3/4" magnum hulls! There was a family of shooters here who used 9.0 grains of Red Dot and either 3/4 or 7/8 oz of shot for a lot of years - you could actually see the shot ball going downrange! He finally bumped it up to 10 grains - maybe a wad finally got stuck in the bore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eyesa Horg Posted July 31, 2023 Author Share Posted July 31, 2023 32 minutes ago, Three Foot Johnson said: You use three quarters of a pound of Clay Dot in a 12g shell? Those must be 36 3/4" magnum hulls! There was a family of shooters here who used 9.0 grains of Red Dot and either 3/4 or 7/8 oz of shot for a lot of years - you could actually see the shot ball going downrange! He finally bumped it up to 10 grains - maybe a wad finally got stuck in the bore. I knew he meant grains! 10 seems like it would be a tad squiby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cypress Sun Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 2 hours ago, Eyesa Horg said: I kinda expected so as I've never seen anybody do it! Is there a particular reason? Guessing that the fouling gets to places it isn't easy to clean. Yep! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 41 minutes ago, Three Foot Johnson said: You use three quarters of a pound of Clay Dot in a 12g shell? Those must be 36 3/4" magnum hulls! There was a family of shooters here who used 9.0 grains of Red Dot and either 3/4 or 7/8 oz of shot for a lot of years - you could actually see the shot ball going downrange! He finally bumped it up to 10 grains - maybe a wad finally got stuck in the bore. We had a shooter show up to a match with similar SG loads. When the targets wouldn't go down her and her husband would cry prop failure even though every other shooter at the match had no issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boulder Canyon Bob# 32052L Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 Yeah, my bad 12 gr not oz. I'd need bigger hulls to get 12 oz, That's what I get for not proofing my posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 OP, do you have any Unique? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eyesa Horg Posted July 31, 2023 Author Share Posted July 31, 2023 6 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: OP, do you have any Unique? No OLG, I have Clay-Dot, Clays, and Cleanshot. I have not used Cleanshot in shotshells. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 I have found that 10 grains of Red Dot is a recoil non existent load in my 97's and my Parkers. It is a SUPER light load. Almost embarrassingly so. It works, but just barely. I increased to 12 grains of Red Dot. No more embarrassment, but still a nice light load. Good luck finding Red Dot right now though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 7 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said: No OLG, I have Clay-Dot, Clays, and Cleanshot. I have not used Cleanshot in shotshells. Lighten the shot load some. Use a dried red kidney bean for a filler with the shot for a good crimp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crisco Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 The BP load my wife shoots is 1-1/8 oz shot with 2.8cc of 2F Goex, and she says it is comparable to factory featherlights. I expect it would be fine with 1oz of shot too, but I just stuck with the charge bar that was in the press. I have never had any issue running BP in a '97 other than in the one with the screw in choke; didn't occur to me to remove and clean behind the choke tube and I had a nasty mess in there when I finally got to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 1 hour ago, Eyesa Horg said: No OLG, I have Clay-Dot, Clays, and Cleanshot. I have not used Cleanshot in shotshells. 3 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said: You'll have to do a lot of cleaning after every match if you shoot BP in a 97. I shoot a lot of it in my 87 and even with hot loads (4 cc of Goex and an ounce of shot) I still get a lot of BP fouling in the action. This is the load I used for my wife. Less felt recoil than the AA LNLR and it still took down every KD we came across. Felt recoil is similar to my APP loads. ( 7/8 oz shot and 35 grains by weight of 3F APP. ) Remington STS, Nitro or Gun Club hull In order of preference, Remington, Chedite, or Winchester 209 primer. ( You can use Federal primers but they are hotter and will have more felt recoil.) Claybuster CB0175-12 wad. (You can use the CB0178-12 wad but you will need to add a packing peanut for filler.) 3/4 ounce of shot 13 grains of 700X. I never chronographed these loads but by my math they are between 900 and 980 fps. You could substitute 14 grains of Clays or Clay Dot for the 13 grains of 700 X and it should have about the same felt recoil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eyesa Horg Posted July 31, 2023 Author Share Posted July 31, 2023 Guessing I should have kept more powders in hand! Used up my Unique 2 decades ago, 700x 10 years ago and Red Dot back in the nineties. Time to experiment a little bit with a little less powder and shot. Anyone know how the Cleanshot fairs? Thanks all for your comments so far. EH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrel Cody Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 45-48gr of Reenactor(Graf’s or Schuetzen) or FFg(same brands) and 7/8oz of lead shot is a mild load and knocks down every target we’ve tried it on. So what if you have to clean extra if enables your missus to shoot. If i could get mine to shoot with me I’d clean after every stage if neeeded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eyesa Horg Posted July 31, 2023 Author Share Posted July 31, 2023 32 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said: You could substitute 14 grains of Clays or Clay Dot for the 13 grains of 700 X and it should have about the same felt recoil. That's the load we've used for years, but with 7/8oz of shot. Will 1/8oz really be much lighter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eyesa Horg Posted July 31, 2023 Author Share Posted July 31, 2023 26 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said: 45-48gr of Reenactor(Graf’s or Schuetzen) or FFg(same brands) and 7/8oz of lead shot is a mild load and knocks down every target we’ve tried it on. So what if you have to clean extra if enables your missus to shoot. If i could get mine to shoot with me I’d clean after every stage if neeeded. I concur Tyrel, the BP rounds I currently use for Plainsman are abt. 42gr. 3F and an ounce of shot. If cleaning is the only issue with the 97, I'm pretty OK with that until her shoulder stops bothering her. Maybe dropping the shot to 7/8 will help too. Likely would need some sort of filler as Lumpy & SD suggested as well. Ellie's not fond of BP for some reason I haven't figured out! Can't get her to shoot my muzzle stuffers! But this morning she seems willing to try the BP shotshells. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 If I wanted a light "BP" load for a '97 I'd use APP. It's not very powerful and the fouling is easy on steel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eyesa Horg Posted July 31, 2023 Author Share Posted July 31, 2023 59 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said: You can use the CB0178-12 wad but you will need to add a packing peanut for filler.) When using a packing peanut or bean, it goes on top of the shot, correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 Just now, Eyesa Horg said: When using a packing peanut or bean, it goes on top of the shot, correct? I put packing peanuts on top of the shot and beans under under the shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eyesa Horg Posted July 31, 2023 Author Share Posted July 31, 2023 Just now, Sedalia Dave said: I put packing peanuts on top of the shot and beans under under the shot. Thanks, are you sorta squishing it in there? They seem to be pretty big for only taking up an eighth of an ounce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 5 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said: Thanks, are you sorta squishing it in there? They seem to be pretty big for only taking up an eighth of an ounce. Yes. Depending on the amount of space I need to fill I may only use part of the peanut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas Maverick Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 1 hour ago, Eyesa Horg said: Guessing I should have kept more powders in hand! Used up my Unique 2 decades ago, 700x 10 years ago and Red Dot back in the nineties. Time to experiment a little bit with a little less powder and shot. Anyone know how the Cleanshot fairs? Thanks all for your comments so far. EH I use Cleanshot in my 38 loads for rifle and revolvers but haven't used it in any shotgun loads. Get with Scarlett Darling, She sells Cleanshot and I bet has some nice loads for you to try. TM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas Maverick Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 1 hour ago, Eyesa Horg said: When using a packing peanut or bean, it goes on top of the shot, correct? She also sells the APP and can give you loads for it as well. TM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imis Twohofon,SASS # 46646 Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 I have switched to Cleanshot for all my cowboy loads including 12 ga. I use STS hulls, grey CB0178-12 wads, 14,1 gn of cleanshot with Cheddite primers and 7/8 oz of #7 1/2 or #8 shot. They are mild enough Jersey Bratt doesnt complain, and fairly clean. I use this load in my 4th Gen Norinco 97. Imis I dont know the bushing numbers since I load on a Dillon 900 that Dad bought a long time ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eyesa Horg Posted July 31, 2023 Author Share Posted July 31, 2023 19 minutes ago, Texas Maverick said: I use Cleanshot in my 38 loads for rifle and revolvers but haven't used it in any shotgun loads. Get with Scarlett Darling, She sells Cleanshot and I bet has some nice loads for you to try. TM 15 minutes ago, Texas Maverick said: She also sells the APP and can give you loads for it as well. TM Message sent to Scarlett, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eyesa Horg Posted July 31, 2023 Author Share Posted July 31, 2023 1 minute ago, Imis Twohofon,SASS # 46646 said: I have switched to Cleanshot for all my cowboy loads including 12 ga. I use STS hulls, grey CB0178-12 wads, 14,1 gn of cleanshot with Cheddite primers and 7/8 oz of #7 1/2 or #8 shot. They are mild enough Jersey Bratt doesnt complain, and fairly clean. I use this load in my 4th Gen Norinco 97. Imis I dont know the bushing numbers since I load on a Dillon 900 that Dad bought a long time ago Gives me something to try. I normally load on a Grabber, but will try experimenting on my old 600 jr. rather than changing everything on the Grabber now that it's where I like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329 Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 The only cowboy I've seen shoot black powder out of his '97 was World Champion Frontiersman Split Rail. He shot BP in his 1911 too -- this was for a Wild Bunch match. He later told me that he disassembled both guns to adequately get the fouling out of all the small crevices. Pretty neat watching him shoot the match tho! --Dawg PS -- I have an Elephant BP can for Ellie. PM me your address, and I'll send it to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mean gun mark Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 shoot the shotgun "outlaw " style from the hip. Trust me its lots of fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eyesa Horg Posted July 31, 2023 Author Share Posted July 31, 2023 5 minutes ago, mean gun mark said: shoot the shotgun "outlaw " style from the hip. Trust me its lots of fun. I would, if it were me. But not thinkin Ellie would go for it!! In fact, I'm positive. But she shoots with me and that's what counts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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