What's your thoughts?

[Mister Badly]

 

[Eyesa Horg]

4 minutes ago, Mister Badly said:

 

Nicely done! You been practicin 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

4 hours ago, Crisco said:

The BP load my wife shoots is 1-1/8 oz shot with 2.8cc of 2F Goex, and she says it is comparable to factory featherlights.  I expect it would be fine with 1oz of shot too, but I just stuck with the charge bar that was in the press.

I have never had any issue running BP in a '97 other than in the one with the screw in choke; didn't occur to me to remove and clean behind the choke tube and I had a nasty mess in there when I finally got to it.

 

1 hour ago, Mister Badly said:

 

Would you fellas mind going over your cleaning rountine for those '97's after BP?

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

3 hours ago, Eyesa Horg said:

When using a packing peanut or bean, it goes on top of the shot, correct?

No, bottom of the cup.

[Doc McCoy, SASS #8381]

Eyesa, you should have talked to Owl Hoot at the last shoot.  He and Kid Rich have used BP in their 97s for years.  Hoot has for about as long as I can remember.  He won’t know about light loads but does know about cleaning it.  I don’t know when he switched to a double.  
 

My loads are about 45 gr of 1F and a bit over 7/8 oz of shot.  I’d make some even lighter if Ellie wanted to try them.  

[Mister Badly]

3 hours ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

 

Would you fellas mind going over your cleaning rountine for those '97's after BP?

Windex with vinegar down the bore and snake it. I hit the action with a liberal dose of break free clp and cycle the action a few times. Spray some down the bore and let drip dry. 

[Kid Rich]

BP works fine in a 97. I have used it and could find NO BP fouling anywhere but in the barrel. Use 2f to get less recoil. A 3.1 Lee dipper is plenty with 3/4 oz of shot.

For smokiless I have loaded as low as 12.1 g of Alliant XL with 3/4 oz shot, that is very light but will take down targets. I have used IMR Red, Red dot and 700x at 12.5 g with 3/4 oz of shot are very good loads. And as far as using 3/4 oz versus 7/8 oz yes it makes a noticeable difference in recoil.

 If Ellie could try shooting Outlaw with the sg she would notice a huge difference with that also, I have shot 1290's with 1 and 1/8 oz of shot Outlaw style with no problem. I tried those once shooting from the shoulder and it was not good. If I need filler for shot I will use a felt wad to take up space in the bottom of the cup to get the proper wad height. It makes it a little more forgiving if you use a very light cardboard overshot card before you crimp.

If you want to talk about it let me know and I will PM you my cell #.

kR

[Eyesa Horg]

12 hours ago, Doc McCoy, SASS #8381 said:

Eyesa, you should have talked to Owl Hoot at the last shoot.  He and Kid Rich have used BP in their 97s for years.  Hoot has for about as long as I can remember.  He won’t know about light loads but does know about cleaning it.  I don’t know when he switched to a double.  
 

My loads are about 45 gr of 1F and a bit over 7/8 oz of shot.  I’d make some even lighter if Ellie wanted to try them.  

Thanks Doc, I may try the BP and see what happens. I need to load some for Plainsman, so can make some lighter ones if she doesn't like mine. I'm loading about 42gr of 3F with an ounce of shot, just changing to 2F should be a difference & drop to 7/8 shot. I've got a few weeks to work on something. Ellie's not real fond of BP though! I'll deal with the cleaning part!

[Eyesa Horg]

2 hours ago, Kid Rich said:

BP works fine in a 97. I have used it and could find NO BP fouling anywhere but in the barrel. Use 2f to get less recoil. A 3.1 Lee dipper is plenty with 3/4 oz of shot.

For smokiless I have loaded as low as 12.1 g of Alliant XL with 3/4 oz shot, that is very light but will take down targets. I have used IMR Red, Red dot and 700x at 12.5 g with 3/4 oz of shot are very good loads. And as far as using 3/4 oz versus 7/8 oz yes it makes a noticeable difference in recoil.

 If Ellie could try shooting Outlaw with the sg she would notice a huge difference with that also, I have shot 1290's with 1 and 1/8 oz of shot Outlaw style with no problem. I tried those once shooting from the shoulder and it was not good. If I need filler for shot I will use a felt wad to take up space in the bottom of the cup to get the proper wad height. It makes it a little more forgiving if you use a very light cardboard overshot card before you crimp.

If you want to talk about it let me know and I will PM you my cell #.

kR

KR,

Which wad are you using? I don't have any 3/4oz, but do have gray 7/8 and pink 1oz.

Thanks,

Eyesa

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Do note that BP tears up plastic hulls pretty quick.

You'll get 2 maybe 3 reloads from a hull.

[Eyesa Horg]

14 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Do note that BP tears up plastic hulls pretty quick.

You'll get 2 maybe 3 reloads from a hull.

Thanks, I'm ok with that if it keeps Ellie shooting comfortably. I don't usually save my BP hulls anyway! Hoping to work down a smokeless load first and ordered a women's recoil pad worn under the bra strap in hopes that the 2 will work for her. She never had an issue over all these years with AA LNLR shells and actually liked shotgun! Our last big match this year in October is usually 8+, so gotta do what I can!

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

One of the issues with BP is that it is bulky and you typically use more than a smokeless load.  The oz capacity of the wad listed on the bag is irrelevant for BP.  The oz weight when using smokeless is primarily to help adjust stack height so you get a good crimp.  Even with smokeless the suggested oz weight is just that depending on what powder you are using.  If you use a 3/4 or 7/8 oz recommended wad you cannot get enough BP in the case to make a decent load and will have a crappy crimp.  Generally the higher the recommended oz the shorter the crush section on the wad.  In the photo left to right are (these are all Winchester "type" wads) a 3/4 oz (pink), 7/8 oz (grey), 1 ounce (light pink), 1 1/8 oz (white) and an old Winchester Red wad that was the standard for BP for a lot of years.  Look at the green arrows.  From there down is the important dimension for BP.  I just loaded my ammo for the Western Regional and used the Winchester White wad with 7/8 oz of shot.  For years I used the Winchester Western Orange wad.  Some exact wad except for the color.

 

[Eyesa Horg]

43 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

One of the issues with BP is that it is bulky and you typically use more than a smokeless load.  The oz capacity of the wad listed on the bag is irrelevant for BP.  The oz weight when using smokeless is primarily to help adjust stack height so you get a good crimp.  Even with smokeless the suggested oz weight is just that depending on what powder you are using.  If you use a 3/4 or 7/8 oz recommended wad you cannot get enough BP in the case to make a decent load and will have a crappy crimp.  Generally the higher the recommended oz the shorter the crush section on the wad.  In the photo left to right are (these are all Winchester "type" wads) a 3/4 oz (pink), 7/8 oz (grey), 1 ounce (light pink), 1 1/8 oz (white) and an old Winchester Red wad that was the standard for BP for a lot of years.  Look at the green arrows.  From there down is the important dimension for BP.  I just loaded my ammo for the Western Regional and used the Winchester White wad with 7/8 oz of shot.  For years I used the Winchester Western Orange wad.  Some exact wad except for the color.

 

Great info Larsen. I'm currently using the light pink wad over 3.1cc of BP & 1oz of shot and get an excellent crimp. Are you using filler of sorts with that white wad or just filling with shot. Gotta look thru some bins, I may have some of the red ones.

Hoping to come up with a light enough load of smokeless for her first however.

Am I correct that the top of the wad should be about even with where the crimp folds so to speak?

Thank you for all the info you share with us.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

11 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Am I correct that the top of the wad should be about even with where the crimp folds so to speak?

 

You do not want the tips of the wad petals sticking up much higher than the bottom of the petal folds, or they hang up in the folded crimp when fired.  The wad petals can be below that spot with no problem other than maybe a row or two of shot is not protected by the wad petals as the payload is pushed down the barrel.

 

But what really makes the crimp finish up nice and flat is for the top of the SHOT to come to the bottom of the petal folds on the hull wall.  It is the SHOT, after all, which is under the petals in the crimp and that shot supports the crimp petals so they will be solid and flat.   Shot level that is lower, allows a sunken crimp which can have a center hole.  Shot level that is higher makes for a coned-up crimp (or a crimp with retained excess pressure from closing the crimp) which is very likely to pop open later.  

 

good luck, GJ

[Eyesa Horg]

4 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

You do not want the tips of the wad petals sticking up much higher than the bottom of the petal folds, or they hang up in the folded crimp when fired.  The wad petals can be below that spot with no problem other than maybe a row or two of shot is not protected by the wad petals as the payload is pushed down the barrel.

 

But what really makes the crimp finish up nice and flat is for the top of the SHOT to come to the bottom of the petal folds on the hull wall.  It is the SHOT, after all, which is under the petals in the crimp and that shot supports the crimp petals so they will be solid and flat.   Shot level that is lower, allows a sunken crimp which can have a center hole.  Shot level that is higher makes for a coned-up crimp (or a crimp with retained excess pressure from closing the crimp) which is very likely to pop open later.  

 

good luck, GJ

Thanks GJ, My current loads do sit properly then! Good info to know while working up this light load. My wads are just barely below the fold and crimps look and hold well, even on my old STS hulls that are on their 8th loading.  BP hulls are usually just discarded, especially the roll crimped ones.

 

Thanks to all for sharing your knowledge with the rest of us.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

I never use filler in a shotgun shell.  It is an added step I do not want to waste my time on.  With BP I adjust the stack height by adjusting the powder charge.  The ones I just loaded are for an original 1887 so I was using Winchester AA hulls as they are a little shorter than a Remington STS and tend to eject better.  The Winchester's also have a little less internal capacity than an STS.  So basically the load is AA hull, white wad, 7/8 oz shot, about 35 grains BP.  The Winchester Red wads were used in the old days when we thought you had to have 80 grains of BP in your shell or you were not a real BP shooter.  Those days, like my youth, are long gone.

 

My smokeless loads for the 87 are a Winchester AA hull, grey wad, 7/8 oz of shot and 12 grains of Clays.  All my trap and sporting clays loads are in Remington STS green hulls so I can easily tell the light loads from the heavies and do not accidently put a hot load in the 87. 

[Eyesa Horg]

4 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

The ones I just loaded are for an original 1887 so I was using Winchester AA hulls

But if you are using the white 1-1 1/8 wad, doesn't 7/8 sit low in the shot cup?

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

If you were putting 7/8 oz in the Red wad, which is designed for 1 1/4 oz loads, it might make a difference.  On 7/8 oz loads the plastic pedals bend a bit but is not noticeable in the finished crimp.  7/8 oz of #8 in the white wad.  1 1/8 oz actually goes over the top of the fingers a bit.

 

 

 

[Sedalia Dave]

 

1 hour ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

One of the issues with BP is that it is bulky and you typically use more than a smokeless load.  The oz capacity of the wad listed on the bag is irrelevant for BP.  The oz weight when using smokeless is primarily to help adjust stack height so you get a good crimp.  Even with smokeless the suggested oz weight is just that depending on what powder you are using.  If you use a 3/4 or 7/8 oz recommended wad you cannot get enough BP in the case to make a decent load and will have a crappy crimp.  Generally the higher the recommended oz the shorter the crush section on the wad.  In the photo left to right are (these are all Winchester "type" wads) a 3/4 oz (pink), 7/8 oz (grey), 1 ounce (light pink), 1 1/8 oz (white) and an old Winchester Red wad that was the standard for BP for a lot of years.  Look at the green arrows.  From there down is the important dimension for BP.  I just loaded my ammo for the Western Regional and used the Winchester White wad with 7/8 oz of shot.  For years I used the Winchester Western Orange wad.  Some exact wad except for the color.

 

 

I use the Gray wad that is 2nd from the left in my BP loads. Works with 3 cc of real BP or APP in a Federal Top Gun, STS or Gun club hull and 7/8 oz of shot.  The pink wad on the far left can be used with the same powder charge but only 3/4 oz of shot.

 

They will not work in a AA hull. For the AA hull you have to use one of the three far right wads depending on how much BP and Shot you use.

 

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Yeah I just noticed I did not mention the hull in the wad post. Just that the wads were Winchester type wads, i.e., wads designed for Winchester and other tapered hull wads.   In the other posts I mentioned the hull - Winchester AA.  The Top Gun is a straight walled hull and has a large internal volume and there are wads designed for straight walled hulls.  I do not use them for any of my loads.

[Eyesa Horg]

We're getting there! I loaded a few with data from Scarlett's site.

13.5gr Cleanshot, gray CB wad, 7/8oz shot. I couldn't feel any recoil at all, not Ellie either. Upped the charge to 14 and Ellie could feel it! So tomorrow we'll drop back to 13.5 and let her try a few. May need to use an overshot card though, the crimp is down a tad and a slight hole on a couple. Or maybe just a square of paper ( easier to install )!

[Doc McCoy, SASS #8381]

The overshot card is very easy to install.  After I drop the shot charge I put the card on the wad fingers and pull the lever just enough to seat it on top of the shot.  It doesn’t engage any other function on the 600 Jr, 650 or the Grabber.  

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

When I dropped my longtime BP load from 1 1/8 oz to 1 oz, I occasionally had a small hole in the crimp.  Someone else mentioned using a cheerio on top of the shot and I already eat cheerios, so that's what I do. 

[Eyesa Horg]

35 minutes ago, Doc McCoy, SASS #8381 said:

The overshot card is very easy to install.  After I drop the shot charge I put the card on the wad fingers and pull the lever just enough to seat it on top of the shot.  It doesn’t engage any other function on the 600 Jr, 650 or the Grabber.  

Thanks for that tip, just  putting one in by hand seemed absurd!

[watab kid]

my thoughts are : do whatever it takes to let her continue to shoot in relative comfort , if that means a light BP load and a bit of cleaning - do it , life is short ...we need to keep doing what we can till we cant , 

[Eyesa Horg]

7 hours ago, watab kid said:

my thoughts are : do whatever it takes to let her continue to shoot in relative comfort , if that means a light BP load and a bit of cleaning - do it , life is short ...we need to keep doing what we can till we cant , 

I fully agree, that's my goal.

[Kid Rich]

I use a variety of shot cups the main thing for me is an   overshot wad. It is actually a wad cut from stiff paper about 9/16" in diameter and just drops in on top of the shot no need to seat it it just keeps the crimped part of the shell from going ito the shot. If there is a small hole in the middle of the crimp the paper will plug it. You could try 13gs of that powder and 3/4 oz of shot. The biggest thing for SB is the dropping the shot weight to 3/4 oz.

[Eyesa Horg]

4 minutes ago, Kid Rich said:

I use a variety of shot cups the main thing for me is an   overshot wad. It is actually a wad cut from stiff paper about 9/16" in diameter and just drops in on top of the shot no need to seat it it just keeps the crimped part of the shell from going ito the shot. If there is a small hole in the middle of the crimp the paper will plug it. You could try 13gs of that powder and 3/4 oz of shot. The biggest thing for SB is the dropping the shot weight to 3/4 oz.

Will give both a try, thanks KR

[Chantry]

IF you end up going to BP, consider 1F or even cannon powder.  Less recoil than 2F.

 

120 grs of cannon powder and 1 1/2 oz of shot out of my ten had very little recoil to the point of making it so boring that I went back to 2F.

 

 

[Lucky R. K.]

In my opinion the best wad choice for black powder shot shells is fiber wads just like those used back in the day. Circle Fly Wads is a business started by Gary Butler to supply muzzleloading shotgun components for competitors at the NMLRA national matches. They are still available today at Track of The Wolf, Dixie Gun Works, and possibly other places. 

Lucky 

[Doc McCoy, SASS #8381]

I have gone back to using fiber wads.  One pass with a bore snake and it's shiny again!  Not that soaking the barrels while I clean the other 3 guns is any big deal.  One pass of a rolled-up paper towel and it's clean.

1F has been my preferred shotgun powder for years.  It's a bit cheaper too.

[Griff]

I'm in the midst of loading my BP shotshells for CAC in September.  For years (from 1986 to this year) I used Winchester AA hulls, a #43 MEC bushing, graduating from 1-1/8 oz down to 1 oz and finally to 7/8 oz of #9 shot with Winchester's Red wad.  I got called out on how stout my BP shells were earlier this year... (how much powder I was using).  I didn't know,  It'd been 1986 when I started using that #43 bushing and didn't remember the weight.   Nearly 65 grains!  I ordered some of the middle 30s bushings from MEC, (I use the adapter in my 366) and settled on the #37, (43 grains on my balance beam scale), to make a decent loaded round.  Much softer shooting!  I'm still using the Red wad, just now from Claybuster, #CB1138-12.

[Blackwater 53393]

I have to go with Mean Gun Mark and Mister Badly on this!

 

A very good friend of mine and a top shooter asked me to show his wife how to shoot her shotgun “from the hip” because she had recently undergone a radical mastectomy and wanted to resume shooting.

 

At the time, I had been shooting my shotgun, a Marlin model 19, from a position just above my belt line for a couple of years and was very successful in doing so.

 

The lady was, at first, skeptical of the idea, but she’d been shooting a ‘97 before her surgery and agreed to try it.

 

I spent an afternoon with her, explaining what I did and finding her comfort zone. She shot up a couple boxes of shells and got to where she was knocking down way more targets than she was missing.  It only took a couple of hours and she got better the more she worked at it.

 

 

You can shoot almost any shell you want without discomfort and, with a ‘97, you can just drop the next round into the action without ever raising the gun!
It’s also a ton of fun and the style points are off the charts!!

[Mister Badly]

23 minutes ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

23 minutes ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

You can shoot almost any shell you want without discomfort and, with a ‘97, you can just drop the next round into the action without ever raising the gun!
It’s also a ton of fun and the style points are off the charts!!

 

1145 fps shells can occasionally cause a cut trigger finger from the front of the trigger guard. A leather or rubber wrap on the front of the guard will prevent it. As will a firmer grip with the trigger hand. On my single shot I have a THICK wrap.

[watab kid]

13 hours ago, Eyesa Horg said:

I fully agree, that's my goal.

glad to hear it , o many of us quit before our time is up - i have shot a lot of matches tho with folks needing extra help , ive always admired how so many cowboys/cowgirls  will go the extra mile to accommodate , as well as the patience displayed - its what endeared me to this venue , folks are just plain nice everywhere i go ,