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"Shoot where it was" - That was then....


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On 3/21/2022 at 11:30 PM, Dang It Dan 13202 said:

So, it has been many, many years since I posted anything here other than to ask for help from other shooters (and they have always been great in that regard) so it is with more than just a little trepidation that I venture forth with an opinion post.  And folks, keep in mind that this is just MY OPINION and i'm not trying to start a mutiny.  

 

When I started (1997) and right up through today, it was/has/is accepted practice to coach a shooter who is actively shooting a stage to "shoot where it was" if a target goes down prematurely.  I have heard many reasons for this practice but in my mind, none of them are fair to the shooter.  I have heard match officials say that it really didn't bother the shooter (like they can read their mind) so it doesn't matter.  I have heard that it's just too windy to give everyone a reshoot.  To me none of these are legitimate reasons.  I don't care who you are or how many years you have been competing, once you have committed a stage to memory and started your run, a missing target is a surprise - it's an unplanned event.   Let's face it, the mere act of the TO yelling directions at you is enough to make you pause.  

 

Todays top shooters can regularly post 10-13 second stage times.  Even a small hesitation counts.  To me, if a target isn't reliable then it's no longer match-worthy and if the club/match insists on using it, then if it malfunctions the shooter should be at least offered a reshoot.  

 

For a match to be "fair" or at least as fair as possible the stages have to be consistent which means the targets have to be consistent as well.  I don't know why we would continue a practice which doesn't reflect the much more advance skill level of today's shooters.

 

Just my $.02 worth.

 

Dang It Dan

 

 

I haven't shot in quite some time but over the years, I've seen this exact situation more than once and I agree with Dan 100%.  At major matches, if there's a target problem such as Dan described that alters the stage that other shooters have engaged, then yes, the effected shooter should be offered a re-shoot.  In major matches such as state championships, regionals and EoT, even 1/10 of a second can be significant in determining the overall outcome among top shooters.  Me, I never had to worry about 1/10 of a second. However, if it meant the difference between shooting clean and being scored with a miss, it was a big deal to me! 

Bottom line:  Offer the shooter a re-shoot but as I always say, that's just the view from my old foxhole. 

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10 hours ago, Dang It Dan 13202 said:

You have touched on the very thing I was trying to illustrate.  If you have say 20 knock down targets, the shooter isn't counting shots, they are looking for available targets.  If no targets are standing, the shooter thinks they are through and moves on.  Couching them at that point impedes them.  Calling them back for "one more round" costs them time even though it is not technically improper coaching.  Here is the crux of the problem.

I think a shooter should be counting shots. There are instances where it’s necessary. For instance, it would be prudent when shooting dump targets to avoid missing a jacked out round. If no one sees it, you’re facing at least a miss & maybe a safety or DQ. Or you may wasting time with an extra attempt to fire at the end of the string. JMHO
We all count shots on multiple hit sweeps like a 3 target 3-1-1 or 2-1-2 sweep. 

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16 hours ago, evil dogooder said:

am i a top shooter, no, i don't consider myself one, but i have beaten those that are top shooters on stages and speed events.  your kidding yourself if you think that a upper class shooter gets surprised by a target not there.  the more stages you shoot, the easier it is to take in what is on the stage and what is not.  its more of an individual reaction. to me if it falls it doesn't matter. if anything i shoot faster because i don't have to focus on a tight sight picture.   to me granting a reshoot would be a callosal waste of time.  we are not shooting in a sterile world . the stages will never be exactly the same for everyone.   if you want that you will have to repaint after every shooter and have it indoors so everyone has the same environmental influences and lighting changes.   part of the challenge of the sport is overcoming and adapting to the unexpected.

Ummm, the OP is a top shooter and he seems to think that a fallen target is a distraction. 

 

How do you square that with your statement that 'upper class' shooters aren't surprised when a target isn't there?

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46 minutes ago, Yusta B. said:

I think a shooter should be counting shots. There are instances where it’s necessary. For instance, it would be prudent when shooting dump targets to avoid missing a jacked out round. If no one sees it, you’re facing at least a miss & maybe a safety or DQ. Or you may wasting time with an extra attempt to fire at the end of the string. JMHO
We all count shots on multiple hit sweeps like a 3 target 3-1-1 or 2-1-2 sweep. 

I count shots, but certainly not all the way up to 10, so in your sweeps I would be thinking 1,2,3-1-1, or 1,2-1-1,2.  My focus is on hitting each target the required number of times, not adding up to 10.  If all targets are standing, and I hit all of them with the required number of shots then I'll get the right round count.  If one of the targets isn't standing and I move to the next target I'm going to have a problem with my count.

 

I think we're getting a recurring theme of "I'm not a fast shooter. It doesn't affect me, so no change is needed."   Or, "there's no big prize at the end, so why worry."

 

Will a fallen target drop 'me' down a few notches in the overall?  Probably not.  Does that mean it isn't an issue for other shooters?  

 

On another thread there was a discussion of a rule at EOT that impacted only duelists.  If I were to adopt the attitude some are displaying here I would respond with a comment to the effect that since it doesn't impact me, there's no reason to change it.

 

I think that's a fairly selfish shortsighted view.  

 

I think we should do all we can to reduce the impact of random events on who wins and who doesn't.

 

I suspect that we're seeing the typical SASS division between one group who doesn't care how well they do (and resents those who do) and another group who does care. 

 

As usual, the competitive group is open to the concerns of the non-competitive group, but the reverse is not true. 

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7 hours ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

 

A person can have fun being as competitive as they can be or just enjoy shooting and hanging out with friends. True for cowboy or modern shooting matches.

Make no mistake, I am a competitor.  I just don't care what others think about me or the sport.  I have fun and that is all that counts with me.  

 

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5 hours ago, Equanimous Phil said:

 

 

I found only one reference in the SHB mentioning setting knockdown targets:

To the extent possible, reactive targets should be set to fall when squarely hit with no more than a standard .38 Special factory load (SHB 26-2, p.20).

So, I assume this also applies for the SG knockdowns and not only for rifle and pistol targets. IMHO, the needed knockdown power should be higher for a SG target!

Ha! If the knock down targets were set to what the Standard say's, the 12 second guys would Scream to High Heaven! Come to think of it, so would most of the "Also Ran" crowd. 

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it all depends on your definition of top shooter.  if you cant get sub .14 second splits consistently, clean shoots 99 percent of the time, capable of sub 13 second times,  your not a top shooter. there are just too many who can do that now days.  you may be the top of your category which is great, but if your not in the running for top ten at nationals or eot, be realistic. your not a top shooter. category winning is a great achievement. that makes you a top shooter of your category, not a top shooter over all.

  look at the times of lefty, dead eye, sidekick, matt, deuce, carty,  watch them on stages.  before the timer even goes off they know where they are placing their feet, where the transitions will take place. id be willing to bet that if you stopped them right before the start of a stage and blind folded them, they could tell you very accurately where every target is at.  how they will position their body to get the most efficient usage of the stage. purposely set up a stage to have a target fall. have them run the stage clean first and then have it fall.  how much do you think it will affect the time?

   targets falling is not a instantaneous thing, its not something that just, poof its down, an attentive shooter will know what's happening before they get to the target. when your moving its really easy to tell if one isn't there and adjust.  if it throws you off, you really need to practice more.  a lot of it is mindset, if you can't see and adapt in split second then either your not in the right mental state as you start or your kidding yourself about your ability. 

 that's one of the reasons i don't consider myself a top shooter.  i don't take it seriously. i don't put the time and dedication into the game to get to that level. top shooters spend hours a day practicing, going over every possibility, every variable to find the best way i may give it 15 or 20 minutes a week, if that  I was top man at mn state last year, does that make me a top shooter?  heck no.  i had seven misses,  shot one  stage with a single shot shotgun goofing around. however i do know, talk to, and am lucky to consider friends some of the best this sport has to offer. top shooters are not seriously affected by simple things

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13 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

QUESTION:   What would some of you think if the target that prematurely falls is a 'Sequence' target?

In other words, what if target #3 falls and the shooter engages #4 with his/her 3rd shot.   How many of you would then

think that its insignificant?

 

I would guess that most of you would want a RESHOOT instead of a 'P' and probable MISSES for unfired rounds.

 

Shooting "where it was" is a good sound-bite, but what if that 'sequence' target ain't there and you don't realize it at the time

of shooting that 'string'.

 

..........Widder

 

I see your point, however the target didn't go anywhere, it is just laying back a bit. At least for my lame self, I usually hear or see it fall before I need to shoot where it was so to speak.

 

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25 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

I see your point, however the target didn't go anywhere, it is just laying back a bit. At least for my lame self, I usually hear or see it fall before I need to shoot where it was so to speak.

 

 

Hey Eyesa.

Have you ever witnessed a plate fall off its support stand, or the support stand fall over flat on the ground?

I've seen hooks break and I've seen the bolts that help hold the plate on the stand, break.

 

With the props, window openings and door frames that we 'move to' and engage targets, ,   moving to those locations and seeing

those targets standing sometimes doesn't allow the shooter to realize WHICH target is no longer there.   Therefore, shooting the

targets out of sequence can be very real..... and very troublesome.

 

Others can take the 'P'.   I would prefer a reshoot.    If my compadres have to shoot 4 or 5 targets, then I think I deserve the same

4 or 5 targets also.

 

Dang It Dan 'IS' a top shooter.   Traditional or GF, he knows how to run a stage.  He shoots with some of the best in the country

and his assertion of this part of our game seems to be a real concern for some.

 

..........Widder

 

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8 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

Hey Eyesa.

Have you ever witnessed a plate fall off its support stand, or the support stand fall over flat on the ground?

I've seen hooks break and I've seen the bolts that help hold the plate on the stand, break.

 

With the props, window openings and door frames that we 'move to' and engage targets, ,   moving to those locations and seeing

those targets standing sometimes doesn't allow the shooter to realize WHICH target is no longer there.   Therefore, shooting the

targets out of sequence can be very real..... and very troublesome.

 

Others can take the 'P'.   I would prefer a reshoot.    If my compadres have to shoot 4 or 5 targets, then I think I deserve the same

4 or 5 targets also.

 

Dang It Dan 'IS' a top shooter.   Traditional or GF, he knows how to run a stage.  He shoots with some of the best in the country

and his assertion of this part of our game seems to be a real concern for some.

 

..........Widder

 

Widder, I think you have a valid point there. I was thinking SG knock downs as they are what generally fall. A rifle or pistol target would surely be a different situation, especially if you didn't see it fall due to a prop etc. blocking it from view. Thanks for the input. Hope you are doing well.

 

EH

 

 

 

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Additionally, how many TOs & spotters would know how to handle a shooter who decided to engage an alternate target instead of the downed target?

 

ROII pg 8-9

Quote

In the event a target fails or falls to the ground, the Timer Operator should instruct the shooter to “shoot where it was.” This call will never result in a penalty of any kind to the shooter. This process has been found to be far less confusing, and thereby safer, to the shooter than requiring an alternate target to be engaged, although it is perfectly acceptable for the shooter to engage an alternate target and be scored for hits and misses in the normal manner. Do not allow the shooter to engage a downed target as this may cause further damage to the target, or worse, may result in dangerous ricochets.

 

Edited by Branchwater Jack SASS #88854
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Dang it, Dan. What did you get started? I'm seeing now how you got your alias.:P

  I see valid points on both sides. Some points I'd throw out there are:

  1) I see a difference in a downed stationary target vs a downed sg kd with no order to be engaged.

 2)Top shooter is a relative term. If you're talking top .06% it'd be the ones listed above. If you're talking top 5-10% of shooters, it opens that up a whole lot more. Instead of top shooter, I like to say prepared shooter. The prepared shooter will be affected less than the ill-prepared shooter. However you look at it, it won't affect everybody the same. 

 3) What burns me up is when there's a hard sg kd that half the posse has to deal with until someone decides to fix it half way through. Don't do that! 

 

My bottom line is I think a shooter should be able to ask for a reshoot if a target is down. To me, target failure is a reason to CONSIDER a reshoot. TO ME a granted reshoot would be "something like" a stationary or kd target with a set engagement order. TO ME maybe something to think about would be the shooter who gets 3 misses and a P on the pistol/rifle portion that just so happened to have a sg target not reset when they started the stage. It gets tricky when you consider everything involved and what possibilities may happen. I don't see a blanket rule to cover all scenarios. 

  

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That is the reason not to have a blanket reshoot. There are shooters who would abuse it to clear other misses or a p. I've seen the TO interference rule used that way.

I check knockdowns when I reset them to assure proper function which includes lead splatter and tip over effort.

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If there is a range equipment failure (target stand breaks) or someone didn't reset a shotgun target, both through no action by the shooter, how can a shooter use that to their advantage? I guess on a plate rack a shooter could intentionaly shoot the support rack hoping a plate or 2 might fall. I understand the issue of a shooter intentionally initiating contact with the time operator and claiming interference but range equipment failure is not initiated by the shooter.

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5 minutes ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

If there is a range equipment failure (target stand breaks) or someone didn't reset a shotgun target, both through no action by the shooter, how can a shooter use that to their advantage? 

One possibility is the shooter that sees a downed sg target before he or she starts the stage so they figure since there is a blanket reshoot rule they're getting a gimme and go all blaze of glory to see what happens. That shooter gets a practice run at the stage where the shooters that didn't have a target not reset did not get a practice run.

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Or they don't see it in advance but handle it like it was up with no problem then have a miss or misses later on the stage and ask for a reshoot. 

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Here's another scenario.  When the KD's are set up for the smaller calibers, targets fall down with considerable regularity when the shooter is using a more substantial caliber and load.  There's no perfect answer hence the shoot where it was rule.

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3 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

One possibility is the shooter that sees a downed sg target before he or she starts the stage so they figure since there is a blanket reshoot rule they're getting a gimme and go all blaze of glory to see what happens. That shooter gets a practice run at the stage where the shooters that didn't have a target not reset did not get a practice run.

 

That always sounds good in theory but many shooters will experience a less successful run the second time around.

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3 minutes ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

 

That always sounds good in theory but many shooters will experience a less successful run the second time around.

Understood. But you asked how they could do it. That'd be one way. And I'd love to get to shoot all the stages twice!

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9 hours ago, Colonel Dan, SASS #24025 said:

I haven't shot in quite some time but over the years...

And it is our great loss!

Miss seeing you out on the range, Col.

Hope you are doing well.

 

Waimea

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24 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Understood. But you asked how they could do it. That'd be one way. And I'd love to get to shoot all the stages twice!

 

Still a practice run that may or may not help is nothing compared to the example of a  shooter who is having a train wreck stage attempting to get a reshoot through actions that HE initiates.

If a club has issues with targets not being reset then to top it off no one is noticing before the start, the club does have problems.

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3 minutes ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

 

Still a practice run that may or may not help is nothing compared to the example of a  shooter who is having a train wreck stage attempting to get a reshoot through actions that HE initiates.

 

I don't follow you. Not sure where the above came from. Help me out.

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1 hour ago, Tennessee williams said:

I don't follow you. Not sure where the above came from. Help me out.

 

If a target wasn't  reset or a stand broke and somehow the shooter is perceived to have gained an advantage, the shooter isn't the person who didn't reset the target or cause the target stand to fail.

 

In the case where the shooter is having a bad stage and he seeks to gain an advantage by intentionally running into the timer operator to get a reshoot,  the shooter is solely responsible for initiating the action.

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25 minutes ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

 

If a target wasn't  reset or a stand broke and somehow the shooter is perceived to have gained an advantage, the shooter isn't the person who didn't reset the target or cause the target stand to fail.

 

In the case where the shooter is having a bad stage and he seeks to gain an advantage by intentionally running into the timer operator to get a reshoot,  the shooter is solely responsible for initiating the action.

I see. I never mentioned the bottom point. The top one though can be an advantage. You asked how someone could take advantage of a target being down that's out of their control.

  If there is a blanket reshoot rule for a target not being set and a shooter comes up to the stage and sees it, he could shoot with the confidence of not having to worry about a miss or procedural. You can burn a stage down if you don't have to worry about that stuff. If you mess up, no big deal cause you know you get a reshoot. That's an advantage no matter how you look at it.

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Think of the benefit that a down Target can have to one shooter over another.

 

Think about the instance you have a 1-8-1 sweep.

 

A shooter who has a failure of an end Target doesn't have the same advantage as a shooter who has a failure of the center Target.

 

That's interesting.

 

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How often is the shooter going to be the only person out of 15 or so to see a target that was not reset? And again, the advantage of shooting a stage twice is no where near the level you think it is. It sounds feasible that it would be an advantage but in practice it is not.

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21 minutes ago, Dang It Dan 13202 said:

I personally don't know ANYONE who would see a downed target before they run a stage and think to themselves, "hey, I have an advantage here".  

 

No one.

 

 

Mine and Gators back and forth got kinda convoluted. He questioned how someone could take advantage of a blanket rule saying you get a reshoot if a sg kd was down when you started the stage. I quoted him a way it could be taken advantage of. I'd rather all the targets be up personally so I wouldn't have to think about it. But..starting a stage you know doesn't have to count unless you want it to would be an advantage. 

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Bring back rank points...  Oh, wait... wrong discussion.  

 

11 minutes ago, Dang It Dan 13202 said:

I personally don't know ANYONE who would see a downed target before they run a stage and think to themselves, "hey, I have an advantage here".  

No one.

Exactly... every time a shooter has noticed a downed target, they've brought it to the attention of the TO to have the best chance at a clean run.  Whether you're fast or slow, a downed target is a hinderance to running the stage...   Although I admit to being of two minds as to whether this should result in a choice of a reshoot, or should result in a mandatory reshoot.  But, I'm inclined to think a downed target should result in the same outcome for everyone... which is a mandatory reshoot.

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I remember a shoot several years ago, where a second cousin of Moses himself was on the firing line. Deaf as a door nail, but sweet as can be, he was in the middle of shooting the stage and picked up his shotgun.

 

They were four targets, two on the left two on the right.

 

I don't remember if it was the two on the left, or the two on the right, but really doesn't matter. But anyway, to make a long story short, two of those targets were not reset.

 

He gets up there and blasts away at the first two targets. bang bang. I forgot to mention that he was blasting away at the two that hadn't been reset.

 

His body rocked under the heavy recoil of his shotgun. Struggling to pull out the spend hulls and reload his shotgun, he stood there mildly confused.

 

Well, he didn't see them go down, you see, and he couldn't hear us yelling at him that they were already down, so, he took careful aim and, BAM ..... BAM. He shot them again.

 

At this time, several of us are struggling to keep it together. With the TO desperately trying to get the shooter's attention, the TO finally pointed over the shooter's shoulder at the others still up and said, "I think those are dead. Best for you to focus on the other two." Or it was something to that effect, anyway.

 

I hadn't laughed that hard on the firing line in a long time.

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12 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Mine and Gators back and forth got kinda convoluted. He questioned how someone could take advantage of a blanket rule saying you get a reshoot if a sg kd was down when you started the stage. I quoted him a way it could be taken advantage of. I'd rather all the targets be up personally so I wouldn't have to think about it. But..starting a stage you know doesn't have to count unless you want it to would be an advantage. 

 

That is why in order to have a match scored as objectively as possible you need to take that choice out of the shooters control. To insure that shooters are shooting the same match, in this example a target that wasn't reset, the reshoot needs to be mandatory so the shooter can't do as you have described. It should be a very rare occurrence and wouldn't hold up a match. 

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I don't think I'm explaining this real well. Here goes another try.

In football, when there is a defensive offsides call its a 5 yd penalty because everyone knows it's not an advantage to have a defense on your side of the ball when it's snapped. However, the offense knowing they essentially have a free play even if the pass is intercepted will throw a deep ball. That's an example of the advantage.

   The shooter, in the event of the blanket possible reshoot knowing he has a free run will go all out and may get lucky and not miss. That's the equivalent advantage. It wouldn't be the norm it would probably be rare, but that wasn't the question.

  The only way to say that couldn't happen is to have a mandatory reshoot for a downed target but I don't see that happening.

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9 minutes ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

 

That is why in order to have a match scored as objectively as possible you need to take that choice out of the shooters control. To insure that shooters are shooting the same match, in this example a target that wasn't reset, the reshoot needs to be mandatory so the shooter can't do as you have described. It should be a very rare occurrence and wouldn't hold up a match. 

I think we both said close to the same thing. I don't see a mandatory reshoot happening though. I'm all for a shooter requesting it though and it being up to the match director.

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1 hour ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

Think of the benefit that a down Target can have to one shooter over another.

 

Think about the instance you have a 1-8-1 sweep.

 

A shooter who has a failure of an end Target doesn't have the same advantage as a shooter who has a failure of the center Target.

 

That's interesting.

 

How do you hit a knockdown 8 times?

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5 minutes ago, Joe LaFives #5481 said:

How do you hit a knockdown 8 times?

 

In addition to a reactive target being down, a rifle or pistol plate could go down as well. Blown over by the hot air, or have even seen people shoot the bolt clear out, or at least the head off anyway.

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