Smoke Standard (Goex)

[John Kloehr]

I think this is the fifth Goex thread...

 

Wonder if there are any plans to re-standardize the blackpowder smoke standard since Goex may become unobtanium.

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

Standardize a subjective application of "smoke". I'll wait.

[Springfield Slim SASS #24733]

Why would we do that? Goex isn't the only Blackpowder maker in the world.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

Perhaps JK is referring to the smoke standard being made with Goex Cowboy, IIRC.

 

Of course, Cowboy hasn't been around for years, anyway.  I'm sure there will always be some BP available.  If it goes away completely, then rethink it.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

2 minutes ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

Perhaps JK is referring to the smoke standard being made with Goex Cowboy, IIRC.

Quote

 

The rounds should be fired in comparison to test rounds made using the following load data:

- Standard .38 Special case.

- 1 cc GOEX 2F powder.

- Federal Standard primer.

- 145 grain bullet lubed with SPG.

- Powder lightly compressed with a medium roll crimp.

SHB pp.25-26

 

[John Kloehr]

8 hours ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

Perhaps JK is referring to the smoke standard being made with Goex Cowboy, IIRC.

Exactly. Amount, brand, granulation, etc. are specified in the handbook.

[John Boy]

I offer, there is no Match Director that can visually determine the amount of smoke difference between any brand/grade of black powder except Fg respective to the smoke test … never exercised to cull out gamers with duplex reloads

The best indicator using straight black powder reloads vs duplexes ones is the smell of the smoke

And again, believe a tester could only identify the difference between a full load of non black powder and a duplex load

[J-BAR #18287]

13 hours ago, John Kloehr said:

Exactly. Amount, brand, granulation, etc. are specified in the handbook.

 

11 hours ago, John Boy said:

I offer, there is no Match Director that can visually determine the amount of smoke difference between any brand/grade of black powder except Fg respective to the smoke test … never exercised to cull out gamers with duplex reloads

The best indicator using straight black powder reloads vs duplexes ones is the smell of the smoke

And again, believe a tester could only identify the difference between a full load of non black powder and a duplex load

 

In 2017 I decided to see if there was a difference between the amount of smoke produced by different brands of black powder.  I made a video of the experiment and it is still on YouTube.

 

During the online discussion when I posted the video, I suggested that the Match Director fire some smoke standard BP cartridges during the Shooter's Safety Meeting before a big match, just so all potential spotters could see what the Standard Smoke Cloud looks like under the match conditions of the day.  I have never seen that done at any match.

 

Honestly, I don't think anyone gives a damn anymore.

 

 

 

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

The "standards" to manage by haven't really been effectively applied. Or consistently applied across the entire country.

Has anyone ever seen a "smoke" standard contested at a match? What match has ever created test rounds to compare against a shooters contested BP rounds?

Has anyone ever seen a "mouse fart" load contested at a match? As in using a chronograph and determining the Power Factor?

Has anyone ever seen a moose killer load contested. As in someone shows up with factory magnum loads.

 

Rules without management and enforcement are just so much paper filler.

[John Boy]

J Bar … excellent video and … almost 20 years after Manatee posted this for testing ….  believe no one still doesn’t have a clue.

But the smells of the different powders will be give aways 

And one day with the slow wind blowing back in my face shooting 42gr of 45 Colt black …

the shooting line was a HEAVY curtain of smoke and seeing the targets was next to impossible.  Of course, I told the counters … Clean Scenarios

[J-BAR #18287]

If blackpowder shooters started winning the Overall at End Of Trail, Regionals, or The World Championship/Winter Range, the issue would be revisited.  Until then, lotsa luck.

[Griff]

19 minutes ago, John Boy said:

J Bar … excellent video and … almost 20 years after Manatee posted this for testing ….  believe no one still doesn’t have a clue.

But the smells of the different powders will be give aways 

And one day with the slow wind blowing back in my face shooting 42gr of 45 Colt black …

the shooting line was a HEAVY curtain of smoke and seeing the targets was next to impossible.  Of course, I told the counters … Clean Scenarios

Did you mean "any one still doesn't have a clue."  As my understanding is that "no one still doesn't have a clue", is that every one has a clue...?

 

And surely you meant "32gr of 45 Colt black..."  As I'm fairly sure that with 42 grains in a 45 Colt case I wouldn't be able to crimp a bullet in the lube groove.  

 

Shoot Frontiersman, your smoke standard issues go away.  And if you think someone is cheating, call 'em out on it.  Don't wuss out...  You're only hurting the sport and other competitors by remaining silent.  Once the match is over, it's OVER... and it rings of sour grapes to complain after the fact.  

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

59 minutes ago, J-BAR #18287 said:

If blackpowder shooters started winning the Overall at End Of Trail, Regionals, or The World Championship/Winter Range, the issue would be revisited.  Until then, lotsa luck.

Damascus Jon won the Northwest Regional this year.  I've seen him shoot.  His ammo meets the smoke standard.  All it takes is a little wind on the first couple stages of the day and BP shooters can post some competitive times.

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

2 hours ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

The "standards" to manage by haven't really been effectively applied. Or consistently applied across the entire country.

Has anyone ever seen a "smoke" standard contested at a match? What match has ever created test rounds to compare against a shooters contested BP rounds?

Has anyone ever seen a "mouse fart" load contested at a match? As in using a chronograph and determining the Power Factor?

Has anyone ever seen a moose killer load contested. As in someone shows up with factory magnum loads.

 

Rules without management and enforcement are just so much paper filler.

Yes and at a eot. Competitor passed test with his 32s

[Hawkeye Kid]

Has anyone done actually testing on various loads and calibers?  32, 32-20, 38 short colt, 38 long colt?

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

12 minutes ago, Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator said:

Yes and at a eot. Competitor passed test with his 32s

So EOT and maybe the Former Winter Range! BP was tested. How about the smokeless criteria being tested? Nope.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

2 hours ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

The "standards" to manage by haven't really been effectively applied. Or consistently applied across the entire country.

Has anyone ever seen a "smoke" standard contested at a match? What match has ever created test rounds to compare against a shooters contested BP rounds?

YES. 
At EoT (I don't recall the exact date).
Boxes of SASS Standard BP "test ammo" (see previous photo) were available.

Shooter's ammo passed the test.
 

...

 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

The purpose of establishing and codifying PF/MIN VEL and BP smoke standards (as well as testing procedures) was to discourage shooters from riding the very edge of the minimum requirements.

Failure to enforce the regulations by challenging and testing suspect ammunition at ALL match levels has apparently lead to some shooters (and match officials) ignoring violations of those standards.

 

If a shooter is using "pocket pistol" loads (smokeless or BP) in main match firearms and is not called on it, they will continue to do so.

 

Enforcement of existing rules and standards is NOT considered "being a hard@$$".
Either "make the call" or quit complaining about noncompliance.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

26 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

So EOT and maybe the Former Winter Range! BP was tested. How about the smokeless criteria being tested? Nope.

 

I'm personally aware of at least one shooter's .44 Rem Mag loads being tested for exceeding the max velocity standard.
(also passed...they were just a LOT hotter than what everyone else was loading by comparison)

Ammunition tests are NOT generally posted on the SASS Wire (or anywhere else for that matter) for public consumption.
There is no possible way that anyone could claim that such tests are NOT being performed.

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

Personally, I have found that the serious "rookie" BP competitor will often ask a well established BP shooter to give opinion to their smoke so that they feel comfortable with what others see (as meeting standard).  I know I have been asked to observe, and I might note that the question of data is not important since it is all about smoke "appearance". 

I  find the sport we love so much is very much about a good competitor wanting to be accepted in the eyes of their peers.  Sure there are those who may push the borderline, but "at the end of the day", want to be on good side of that line.  There are those in BP that push far above standard as there are those that push well above power factor in smokeless.    

[T-Square]

Fill your cases with Powder and not oatmeal - and you will have nothing to worry about !

People want entertainment, and the smoke and boom of a BP shooter give them the entertainment they seek !

FYI, at 5:20 EST Graf & Sons has Goex 3FFF powder - buy it now while you can - limit is 25 pounds

[Kid Rich]

If you have to worry or even think about making the smoke standard in a BP category you should pick another category. Frontier cartridge is not about trying to get your loads as light as possible. Just my opinion.

kR

 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

I have seen a local shooter (.32 pistols, .38 rifle) absolutely fill the range with smoke one day, and have not much smoke another day, with the same loads.  Weather/humiditybreeze has a huge effect.

[T-Square]

And I've seen them make loads that are so light that the bullet just rolls out of the barrel.  You could catch the bullet in your hand !

Those questionably light loads are reserved for Senior's with arthritis or hand disabilities. 

Don't worry, they wont win - but they sure are here for the FUN  and we love to have them staying in the game !!

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

2 hours ago, KH24 said:

Has anyone done actually testing on various loads and calibers?  32, 32-20, 38 short colt, 38 long colt?

Captain Baylor and I tested my wife's .32 H&R mag loads for an article in the Cowboy Chronicle.  They met the smoke standard.  APP made the most smoke and is what she shoots regularly.  I expect 32-20s would meet the smoke standard too.

[T-Square]

Maybe we should have spot testing at major matches.  The MD could send someone out to collect a cartridge specimen  (keeping it out of the gutter)  from each shooter. Tests can be run, and data published. 

It would make dinner that night on the range very interesting !!

[Cholla Bob]

43 minutes ago, Kid Rich said:

If you have to worry or even think about making the smoke standard in a BP category you should pick another category. Frontier cartridge is not about trying to get your loads as light as possible. Just my opinion.

kR

 

Preach it Brother!   Its all about the flames and sparks.

[Buckshot Sheridan]

The only appropriate filler for BP loads is more BP. 

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

I'll still ask, at State, national and international, EOT, matches do they test smokeless and or BP loads. The answer is not unless another shooter protests and has to pay.

 

[Doc Shapiro]

2 hours ago, T-Square said:

Maybe we should have spot testing at major matches.  The MD could send someone out to collect a cartridge specimen  (keeping it out of the gutter)  from each shooter. Tests can be run, and data published. 

It would make dinner that night on the range very interesting !!

 

I agree.  If there's a standard it ought to be tested.  That goes for power factor as well as the smoke standard. 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

41 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

I'll still ask, at State, national and international, EOT, matches do they test smokeless and or BP loads. The answer is not unless another shooter protests and has to pay.

 

One more (LAST) time:

 

Quote

Ammunition tests are NOT generally posted on the SASS Wire (or anywhere else for that matter) for public consumption.
There is no possible way that anyone could claim that such tests are NOT being performed.

 

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

If testing is being done more then people realize, what is to be gained by hiding that fact? You don't have to identify people by name and it would let shooters know that they need to meet the decided on standards. 

 

By making it secretive it gives the appearance that SASS wants shooters to believe checking occurs more then it actually does. Why not be more up-front  about it?

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

52 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

no possible way that anyone could claim that such tests are NOT being performed.

So in all my years for shooting SASS, 20+, I've never seen or heard of a protest over any of the items discussed. I wouldn't think that the Chronicle would publish John Wayne SASS# 123,456 had his loads challenged. They were tested and found not to meet the SHB criteria. 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

6 minutes ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

If testing is being done more then people realize, what is to be gained by hiding that fact? You don't have to identify people by name and it would let shooters know that they need to meet the decided on standards. 

 

By making it secretive it gives the appearance that SASS wants shooters to believe checking occurs more then it actually does. Why not be more up-front  about it?

 

4 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

So in all my years for shooting SASS, 20+, I've never seen or heard of a protest over any of the items discussed. I wouldn't think that the Chronicle would publish John Wayne SASS# 123,456 had his loads challenged. They were tested and found not to meet the SHB criteria. 

 

OK...I give up.
SASS' policy has ALWAYS been to keep any and all ammunition challenges and tests a SECRET from the general membership. 
I will submit a proposal to the BoD & Range Operations Committee to amend the SHB and RO Course materials to make reporting and publishing the results of ALL ammunition challenges & protests at ALL match levels MANDATORY.

(don't hold yer breath)