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Seems the last time we had this conversation, there was one club left in California that shot W3G regularly.

Two CAS clubs around here have tried to incorporate some facets of W3G into monthly Cowboy matches, but it hasn't been very popular.

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what is W3G as opposed to SASS ? just askin as one thats never heard of it - or i thought SASS was W3G , different rules ? different guns and amo ? 

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SO, it was SASS before there were safety rules?????:lol:

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This may be what modern 3 gun competition looks like in a few months if the un-president jos biden has his way.  (I won't dignify him by capitalizing his name)

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37 minutes ago, Capt. R. Hugh Kidnme said:

SO, it was SASS before there were safety rules?????:lol:

Nothing unsafe about it, modern 3-gun does the same!

As does many other 'run-n-gun', gun games.

OLG 

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The only link to W3G I can find has expired:

http://www.western3gun.com/
 

More than likely the demise of this came in the same fashion that hinders Zoot Shooters and in a sense Wild Bunch (at least for me). Restrictions on guns used. Not everyone wants to own an 1897 shotgun. Not everyone can afford a Thompson. Not everyone wants a 1911. The guns of Wild Bunch were varied. Not just 1911s and 97 and 1912 shotguns. 
If you want to pick an era to emulate for a shooting sport and you want it to become popular do not restrict the guns used to your liking. That is why SASS was so successful, but SASS, IMNSHO, has lost it’s way as they allowed gamers to turn the sport into what it is today. A flippin’ speed trial. 
 

Anyway, my two cents...

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1 minute ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

The only link to W3G I can find has expired:

http://www.western3gun.com/
 

More than likely the demise of this came in the same fashion that hinders Zoot Shooters and in a sense Wild Bunch (at least for me). Restrictions on guns used. Not everyone wants to own an 1897 shotgun. Not everyone can afford a Thompson. Not everyone wants a 1911. The guns of Wild Bunch were varied. Not just 1911s and 97 and 1912 shotguns. 
If you want to pick an era to emulate for a shooting sport and you want it to become popular do not restrict the guns used to your liking. That is why SASS was so successful, but SASS, IMNSHO, has lost it’s way as they allowed gamers to turn the sport into what it is today. A flippin’ speed trial. 
 

Anyway, my two cents...

 

Any time a speed measuring device is used.....it's a speed trial/contest. SASS has lost it's way for many different reasons, the "speed trial" reason is just one of the reasons.

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1 minute ago, Cypress Sun said:

 

Any time a speed measuring device is used.....it's a speed trial/contest. SASS has lost it's way for many different reasons, the "speed trial" reason is just one of the reasons.

Agreed

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1 hour ago, Capt. R. Hugh Kidnme said:

SO, it was SASS before there were safety rules?????:lol:

 

I didn't see anything unsafe in the video. In fact, it looked like a lot of fun. 

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56 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Nothing unsafe about it, modern 3-gun does the same!

As does many other 'run-n-gun', gun games.

OLG 

Good for them. I guess it depends on your view of safety. If you like the muzzle of loaded guns below your chest, moving with live rounds in the chamber and other folks stepping beyond the firing line in use......have at it. 

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30 minutes ago, Cypress Sun said:

 

I didn't see anything unsafe in the video. In fact, it looked like a lot of fun. 

So,  if you don't see him coming off the loading table with a rifle muzzle below his chest at 7 sec mark,  or moving forward with the cocked rifle at the 45 sec mark,  or the gentleman crossing he firing line through doorway, while the shooting string was still going on as unsafe, then you're right. Enjoy 3 gun.

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 A club near me offered one stage of that several times during monthlies after the normal match for anyone who wanted to try it. It was a lot of fun. Sadly it never caught on.

 

Lots of movement and downrange movement but nothing unsafe.

 

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It's a matter of perspective Capt Kidnme... the gentleman is NOT crossing the firing line downrange of the shooter, the firing line in that scenario is a fluid thing, it's moving as the shooter is moving downrange.  And many shooting sports start a shooter at the "low ready" position, nothing "unsafe" about it... unless you're an inherently unsafe gun handler.  In which case, SASS rules or W3G rules, you won't be welcome.  As far as movement with the rifle in battery... much like walking and chewing gum, some can, some can't, those who can't, shouldn't.  It was never a "requirement" that you moved with a gun in battery, but... as in most competitions, it's best if the competitor knows their limitations and stays within those.  W3G is much like cowboy action shooting was before we all became wussies and left the "action" behind because folks who were afraid of guns started playing cowboy.

 

SASS lost its' way when it started allowing gun modifications.  (I'm talkin' external modifications here... i.e. lowered hammers on non-Bisley models, short-stroked rifles*)...  It also grew its' fastest when it started allowing gun modifications.  And that fast growth meant more shooters... more shooters meant shorter stages... shorter stages meant less movement... and here we are.  

 

All this talk about "growing the game"... is meaningless, as we will not attract a crowd of younger shooters as long as we restrict movement such as we do.  In doing so we will lose our more experienced shooters.  

 

I've shot at SASS matches that had just as much movement as that video clip did, done within SASS rules at the time,   But... you don't move 300+ shooters thru multiple stages like that in a day... at least a day most 60-75 year old's are comfortable with.

 

As for Wild Bunch... restricting the firearms is simply an attempt to make it a level playing field for every entrant.  If every entrant has to use 3 magazines to fire their 21 pistol shots... ok,  explain how you make that equal to someone using a Webley or a S&W of the period?   Much as cowboy action, the superior weapon will rise to the top and it becomes necessary for anyone wishing to compete at the top of the game to use that weapon... much as the '73 in cowboy action.  The other reason is reaching the power factor... it's not that high a standard, but it is higher than what the vast majority of cowboys use in their cowboy guns.  Every single one of them would be crying about how they have to load different ammo for WB.  Requiring a 1911, just took that argument off the table.

 

* (There were, at the time, very reasonable justifications given for such relaxation of the written rule... the number of short-stroked rifles already in play before it became widely common knowledge was such that restricting them was akin to a tech inspection before a SCCA race... It allows more people to compete... etc.)  

Edited by Griff
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Following are some things I enjoy about W3G.

Painting targets (black and white, whichever part was hit) between shooters.

No scenario. You are told a path to follow. You shoot the targets as they appear in the openings.

Only need one counter who moves along the line before the painters.

You can preload the SG with four or a double with two.

Two types of pistol and rifle targets. One with a raised white center that you double tap. One with a white flop down in the center.

No coaching.

 

I haven't shot it in a few years. I'll let you know if I think of anything else that is different than SASS,

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I don't have a better video but that one isn't a very good one to demonstrate W3G. You can see the targets that were used though. To experience the full potential of W3G you had to shoot it down in Piru.

 

The targets used are a plate with a hole cut out in the center. A seperate hinged plate behind the first. If you knocked down the center plate you got a -1 second bonus. You needed 1 target per shot fired because of the knockdown. They also used a plate with a second static smaller bonus plate in front of the larger one. This target could be shot multiple times potentially with multiple -1 second bonuses earned. You time could be 27 seconds but if you hit 15 bonuses your final time would be 12 seconds. The targets were spread out along the shooting line and you had to move a little with each gun to shoot them all.

 

It took a bunch of those targets for each stage. We had W3G at Ione but had to substitute cardboard IDPA targets to have a scored bonus area. It wasn't nearly the same experience. The shooters in that video and the stage that was used didn't really show how a little better shooter could shoot a stage. You can't really fully experience W3G without those knockdown bonus targets being used. It was fun.

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Thinking about it I also think the over analyzation of every little thing in a match has detrimental effects as well. 
 

Regarding gun restrictions in WB and other shooting sports. It’s simple enough for me, as it should be for others. I don’t wish to purchase the guns for that segment of the sport so I don’t. Simple. 

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57 minutes ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

Following are some things I enjoy about W3G.

Painting targets (black and white, whichever part was hit) between shooters.

No scenario. You are told a path to follow. You shoot the targets as they appear in the openings.

Only need one counter who moves along the line before the painters.

You can preload the SG with four or a double with two.

Two types of pistol and rifle targets. One with a raised white center that you double tap. One with a white flop down in the center.

No coaching.

 

I haven't shot it in a few years. I'll let you know if I think of anything else that is different than SASS,

Shot W3G at Piru Ca and it was a kick!

IIRC, their shoot days conflicted with a couple other SASS clubs 

OLG 

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53 minutes ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

I don't have a better video but that one isn't a very good one to demonstrate W3G. You can see the targets that were used though. To experience the full potential of W3G you had to shoot it down in Piru.

 

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9 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Nothing unsafe about it, modern 3-gun does the same!

As does many other 'run-n-gun', gun games.

OLG 

 

Given that the average age of a SASS member is about 87 anything involving running and gunning is inherently unsafe.  After all we have El Patron, La Patrona and some shoots are now offereing El Rey and La Reina.  At a lot of shoots if the shooter has to move more than one step to the left or right you get complaints about the stage being a marathon.

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3 different type of guns. Rifle, shotgun and revolver, although 2 revolvers. You never had to run and gun. The targets aren't all bunched in one area so you did have to move, not run. You could shoot on the move if you were capable. Most shooters moved, stopped and shot then moved again. 

As far as not catching on at other venues W3G may have been successful if clubs invested in the targets used in Piru. But they did not, I can't blame them because of the expense, so we'll never know.

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1 hour ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

 

Given that the average age of a SASS member is about 87 anything involving running and gunning is inherently unsafe.  After all we have El Patron, La Patrona and some shoots are now offereing El Rey and La Reina.  At a lot of shoots if the shooter has to move more than one step to the left or right you get complaints about the stage being a marathon.

Pretty wide 'brush' you're using.

You ever shot W3G?

If one can walk a SASS stage. They can walk a W3G stage.

OLG 

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OK , thanks , run n gun like 3G but with costumes and firearms of SASS/CAS , i like it , 

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I think the props and targets at Piru are B) and could be used for SASS too. SASS uses KDs. I've not seen a SASS club use the targets with raised centers; but I don't know why they couldn't.

 

The photo I posted was at Diamond Dick's Cowboy Town. It was very labor intensive to set up for W3G. As you can see from the videos at Piru, that was a much better set up. I'm so glad I went to several annuals at Piru and saw its potential. Our horizontal movement at DDCT could be used for W3G, if we had different targets.

 

Like WB, W3G would be a longer match than CAS.

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